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[Fi] Fi 101

neptunesnet

man-made
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Make sure they understand that you want their point of view on something for your own benefit/use and that you are not going to judge them based on it. And then thank them and tell them you really appreciate their feedback.

I agree.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
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3,376
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ENTP
Make sure they understand that you want their point of view on something for your own benefit/use and that you are not going to judge them based on it. And then thank them and tell them you really appreciate their feedback.

Thank you for commenting. I appreciate the feedback. :)

Yup, remove potential judgement. Most of us value the connection we have with you over some silly topic such as a movie. If you can indicate that you won't shoot a person for having another opinion, that will do a lot already. *points at feedback rules*

Try listing not only what you thought was bad, but also the good points of the movie, showing that you're not just tearing it down just for the heck of it, but also are willing to make a balanced judgement.

The thing is..if you are to judge a movie that harshly and completley trash it, I make a mental note, especially if I don't know you that well yet. You're that harsh on a movie already? Makes me wonder how you'll think of me. How you focus on the flaws instead of the positives. Makes me feel uncomfortable to be near you, coz it means that my flaws will always come first in your opinion, and you won't like me. Afterall, it's not like you were able to enjoy the movie either. This is a subconscious process btw, that gets triggered only after observing this behavior, indicating a pattern. I reserve these kinda conclusions for when I'm absolutely sure as I like toi give people the benefit of the doubt.

As for my reaction to your movie-rant, I personally will automatically play devils advocate, if I feel comfortable with you. You say you hated the movie for this and this and this reason? I'll agree with you on those points but automatically list the things I found really good, in essence trying to redeem the movie for you. Why? Coz I have a need to value everyone and this movie was made by someone who put a lot of effort in this probably. I consider it cheap to tear someone elses work down without presenting your own to be criticized. Therefore I will always want you to show some appreciation for someone at least trying what you didn't even dare to go near.

Ahh...this is the connection that I wasn't able to make before. Thanks for explaining. :)

From my perspective I wouldn't assume that being critical of a movie is the same as being critical of a person. However, I can see how I could be intimidating to a person who would associate the two. The people who know me well say I'm totally non-judgemental, and I if anything I think too highly of other people. On the other hand I'm very critical of "things": organizations, artistic pieces, gizmos around my house, etc.... I don't see that as being critical of people, but I can see how an NFP would.

I'm not sure if that works exactly the same with an SFP though. I tend to have the hardest time communicating with the ISFP's I know, and I don't think it is exactly the same type of thing going on with an ISFP. Well I don't think they'd expect something to be talked up to be "fair". However I think they are worried that I might be judging them. That part I think is the same.

Thanks again for the input. :)
 

cascadeco

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The thing is..if you are to judge a movie that harshly and completley trash it, I make a mental note, especially if I don't know you that well yet. You're that harsh on a movie already? Makes me wonder how you'll think of me. How you focus on the flaws instead of the positives. Makes me feel uncomfortable to be near you, coz it means that my flaws will always come first in your opinion, and you won't like me. Afterall, it's not like you were able to enjoy the movie either. This is a subconscious process btw, that gets triggered only after observing this behavior, indicating a pattern. I reserve these kinda conclusions for when I'm absolutely sure as I like toi give people the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, wow. :shock: This is so foreign to my way of thinking!! Like Liquid Laser, talking about things - movies, art, buildings, policies, institutions - is a totally separate arena for me than talking of people. My judging a movie harshly IS my opinion...and I recognize everyone else has the right to theirs. Opinions are subjective after all. It has never occurred to me that people might take something like my opinion on a movie or something like that, and translate that to how I might think of a person. Interesting, though.

As for my reaction to your movie-rant, I personally will automatically play devils advocate, if I feel comfortable with you. You say you hated the movie for this and this and this reason? I'll agree with you on those points but automatically list the things I found really good, in essence trying to redeem the movie for you. Why? Coz I have a need to value everyone and this movie was made by someone who put a lot of effort in this probably. I consider it cheap to tear someone elses work down without presenting your own to be criticized. Therefore I will always want you to show some appreciation for someone at least trying what you didn't even dare to go near.

Huh. I guess, again, I don't personalize it as much. Someone made a movie, yes, and someone put their time/effort into it and it meant a lot to that person. But that person surely recognizes that the fact HE values his work doesn't entitle him to having other people value it, right? I mean, that's part of life...you put a product of yours out there - whether it be something you created, or whether that product is YOU, as an individual - and it's rather a given that it won't be viewed favorably by all, and others have just as much right to dislike the product as you have for liking it.

Anyway, interesting. Fascinating, really, just because I tend not to view things this way. I don't mean for my words to diminish anything you've said, although it might come across that way...it's just like a whole new world. :)

(by the way, I haven't followed this thread, my apologies, I just saw the most recent posts. If/when I have more time, I'll probably browse through the rest. The OP would be good for starters. :blush:)
 

neptunesnet

man-made
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From my perspective I wouldn't assume that being critical of a movie is the same as being critical of a person. However, I can see how I could be intimidating to a person who would associate the two. The people who know me well say I'm totally non-judgemental, and I if anything I think too highly of other people. On the other hand I'm very critical of "things": organizations, artistic pieces, gizmos around my house, etc.... I don't see that as being critical of people, but I can see how an NFP would.

I think that may have been specific to Amar.

I, on the other hand, am very critical when it comes to movies, organizations, "things," etc. The way I see it is if you're going to do it at all do it properly. Plus, I'd imagine filmmakers want the viewer to discuss the content and quality of their movies. If they don't, they probably aren't making anything important/worth seeing anyway.

But then again, I'm sure there're things that I admire and others are critical about that I may feel like theyre being overly judgmental about. It depends on the values of that particular NFP.
 

Amargith

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Don't get me wrong, these days I don't work that way anymore. But that's coz I learned that others didn't view things that way. That took me coming here, to realize that. Also, if I know you well, and you criticize stuff that harshly, it may bother me yes, coz you're tearing down someone elses work while not contributing yourself, but I'll shrug it off, coz I know how you work and understand somewhat where you come from. That means I won't get insecure like that about 'us'.

Also, doing the criticizing thing is fine, as long as you do show appreciation on occasion as well. It's the mindset that bothers me. It tells me that your outlook on life is likely to be the 'half-empty glass' instead of the 'half-full' one. And if you're this negative about everything, it's draining on me. I don't have a need for that to be near me. Especially coz I know you're unlikely to be interested in doing something about it, nor should I force you to want to. But no offense, that to me is emotional energy I could be using elsewhere. If I make an effort to tell you the good things about the movie, and you refuse to acknowledge them and trash it some more and this is typically what you do with everything, I'm going to roll my eyes at you and stay away from you. I might still like you, but you're too draining to me and I have to bite my tongue too much in order not to get sucked in by that kind of draining negativity. Not fun.

Edit: I too judge and conclude whether a movie is for me or not. And I will tell you if I don't like it. But I'll also add something that shows that although it might not have been my kind of movie, I can see it appealing to others. If you loved the movie and I rolled my eyes at it, I'll tease you about how lame you are etc, but ultimately, I'll respect your opinion. I'm acutely aware that I'm just one person and others may appreciate what I consider trash. And I consider it incredibly arrogant to fully trash something that someone else might've loved. Who am I to say what is trash and what isn't? I do admit that this attitude has most likely been heavily influenced by the way I grew up as well as the group of friends I'm part of. So take it with a grain of salt.
 

Scott N Denver

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Don't get me wrong, these days I don't work that way anymore. But that's coz I learned that others didn't view things that way. That took me coming here, to realize that. Also, if I know you well, and you criticize stuff that harshly, it may bother me yes, coz you're tearing down someone elses work while not contributing yourself, but I'll shrug it off, coz I know how you work and understand somewhat where you come from. That means I won't get insecure like that about 'us'.

Also, doing the criticizing thing is fine, as long as you do show appreciation on occasion as well. It's the mindset that bothers me. It tells me that your outlook on life is likely to be the 'half-empty glass' instead of the 'half-full' one. And if you're this negative about everything, it's draining on me. I don't have a need for that to be near me. Especially coz I know you're unlikely to be interested in doing something about it, nor should I force you to want to. But no offense, that to me is emotional energy I could be using elsewhere. If I make an effort to tell you the good things about the movie, and you refuse to acknowledge them and trash it some more and this is typically what you do with everything, I'm going to roll my eyes at you and stay away from you. I might still like you, but you're too draining to me and I have to bite my tongue too much in order not to get sucked in by that kind of draining negativity. Not fun.

I'm with Amar on this one. Its the attitude from which criticizing arises that I find concerning, particularly because if a person applies such an attitude towards one thing they are probably going to display it towards other things as well. Which isn't to say that a person can't criticize, but I would suggest being very careful in your choice of words and being very clear about what you it is that you mean.
 

LavaLucy

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I've found this thread really interesting and just wanted to add a bit about fi users I know.

Talking about INFP managers, our library manager is INFP and I think she does a fine job. She is open to everyone's input and she really cares about individual patrons. When she is off-putting it is probably more my problem than hers. She does this thing where when you ask a question there is a long gap where she is thinking. Or maybe a comment and she stares ahead at you blankly for what seems like a very long time! before she answers. But I've adjusted so now I just stare back and wait or not wait and walk off. She also takes me very seriously when I am almost always half joking or exaggerating. The only work related issue I have with her is she can't give me a yes no answer. I'm trying to ditch responsibilty to make a decision and she just won't let me I tell you! She is caring towards the staff and gave us all chocolates at christmas.

Two of my best friends are INFP and ISFP. They don't feel very similar to me. But I can see how they both have these specific values and privacy values that you can't touch. Particually the ISFP when questioned on such won't explain why she feels intensly about something she just does and if I don't understand too bad for me.
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
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I normally don't get annoyed with people unless I see ill intent, or I feel really restricted. If I just sat through an agonising attempt at art, I'm not going to feel I owe the person who made it anything. "Why was this produced?" is a more common first thought. Also if I can see a reason to make an exception, I normally make it. Which is useful, because with Ne I normally see one :).

In most arguments I use a personal approach but the person is rarely the target of hatred. I attack concepts. The problem is that I sometimes attack concepts by describing the influence the person is having on the situation. An NFP might see this as just information to consider, whereas another type can see this as an attack on what they are. I also spend a lot of time fighting on their side in an argument. The target is almost always mutual ground and resolve.
 

BlueScreen

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I'd also say, once you know an ENFP for a while you will see the signs they give when really annoyed. It is actually a rare occurrence. I have no one on here who I'd even consider putting on an ignore list or hating. If I become really direct, assertive, rational, too honest and uncompromising, then take a step back or figure out what is up. Otherwise a little annoyance can be anything from frustration to boredom and disinterest. And quietness can be anything, it doesn't even mean we are annoyed.
 

wolfy

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Ahh...this is the connection that I wasn't able to make before. Thanks for explaining. :)

From my perspective I wouldn't assume that being critical of a movie is the same as being critical of a person. However, I can see how I could be intimidating to a person who would associate the two. The people who know me well say I'm totally non-judgemental, and I if anything I think too highly of other people. On the other hand I'm very critical of "things": organizations, artistic pieces, gizmos around my house, etc.... I don't see that as being critical of people, but I can see how an NFP would.

I'm not sure if that works exactly the same with an SFP though. I tend to have the hardest time communicating with the ISFP's I know, and I don't think it is exactly the same type of thing going on with an ISFP. Well I don't think they'd expect something to be talked up to be "fair". However I think they are worried that I might be judging them. That part I think is the same.

Thanks again for the input. :)

I've been a bit like that in the past. What I liked felt like an extension of myself and expressing that was an expression of myself. So in tearing it down it was the same as tearing into me which only served to piss me off. As I got older I saw that others had their own stupid opinions and that had no bearing on me as an individual. I think in a way I switched to seeing everybody as an individual with competing agendas at some point.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Huh. I guess, again, I don't personalize it as much. Someone made a movie, yes, and someone put their time/effort into it and it meant a lot to that person. But that person surely recognizes that the fact HE values his work doesn't entitle him to having other people value it, right? I mean, that's part of life...you put a product of yours out there - whether it be something you created, or whether that product is YOU, as an individual - and it's rather a given that it won't be viewed favorably by all, and others have just as much right to dislike the product as you have for liking it.

I tend hardly to be as universalist as the NFPs, so people can rip on movies all they like, but... in a context where a creator is present or somehow around in the ether or if an opinion is to be taken seriously at all, ripping on something is required to be constructive. Interestingly, remembering that "the fact HE values his work doesn't entitle him to having other people value it" isn't constructive. It's status-quo, it's harmony. It doesn't (immediately) identify which team has the opinion that will move construction forward. Thinking that way is an Fe win, and a Te fail.

The clans will never be united. :sad:
 

cascadeco

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I tend hardly to be as universalist as the NFPs, so people can rip on movies all they like, but... in a context where a creator is present or somehow around in the ether or if an opinion is to be taken seriously at all, ripping on something is required to be constructive. Interestingly, remembering that "the fact HE values his work doesn't entitle him to having other people value it" isn't constructive. It's status-quo, it's harmony. It doesn't (immediately) identify which team has the opinion that will move construction forward. Thinking that way is an Fe win, and a Te fail.

The clans will never be united. :sad:

Actually..well, I agree on your point re. constructive critiques. I mean, it's not like I don't have reasons for liking or disliking things - whether it be movies, books, or anything else. So if I were to actually have a discussion on why a movie is good or bad, I would prefer it to have some meat to it, rather than be purely subjective. I mean, I think there are objective standards/frameworks as some of these things go. That said, I don't tend to get up in arms about these sorts of things anyway. :) If I find merit in a movie, and someone else doesn't, I might be amused/surprised, and wonder why they dislike it, but it wouldn't really go beyond that. And vice versa, if someone really loves a movie I loathe, I'll be curious why, but I won't bash them for it.

I was merely surprised by Amar's pov in terms of bringing up the creator of the movie, that's all; as far as movies go, I only care about the final product. So I was trying to say I don't really agree with the fact that everyone always deserves some sort of kudos for their work/products, when in fact the product itself might be abysmal on many counts (be it acting, cinemetography, plot, screenplay, whatever)...the fact that they cared about it doesn't mean a whole lot as far as the potential quality of the product. I'm not going to go out of my way to ooh and aah over something that I don't think has any merit at all, just because someone else put a lot of work into it. It might not be deserving of it. That was more of my point, I guess.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Amar actually raised a pretty good point (he says, speaking N. The stuff about movies is frankly a little weird and if an ENFP tried to pull that while I was ripping on some movie, that date might go a little strange. Come to think of it, I know ENFPs who do that massive over universalising thing...hmmm. But...) The (Te/Fi) idea behind it, that people work to create something because they have a vision or a feeling, and the object created is a product of inner passion, and that passion is respectable even if the product is crap, and so, especially if the product is crap, you contribute to realisation or you waste time...

Very Te/Fi, I think.



The clans may end up united. Te is shallow by itself but gains depth when plugged into Fi and some perception function, and users get annoyed when Ti contributes because the depth Ti brings is of a conflicting kind to the other Xi's in use; and Te gets stymied when Fe takes over the reins and orders a different kind of environmental arrangement, thinking as Te users do that feeling is already covered in depth by Fi, but maybe Fi's got something to learn about the outside world, even if it looks shallow... and so we become one happy, united clan. A family of sorts, with some in-fighting. We'll have to invade England for more baronial estates.
 

Amargith

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I didn't think of it before, but Kalach did mention something I wanna stress...a lot of stuff that's created out there, which to me has some meaning (I'm not talking things that were clearly designed to make money only), is likely to be created by Artisans... often Fi-users. And although their Fi might not be mine, I can nevertheless see the vision they had. Even if the execution is poor, the idea itself, the concept, has merit. And instead of bashing it till nothing's left of it, suggestions on how it could be improved and how great it could be are very much more appreciated, at least in my case. Again, it's cheap and low to me to bash something into the ground and have nothing else to offer in its stead. For that matter, do that to something I actually care a lot for, a person, something I made and thought you would appreciate, for that matter me as a person, or the very actions that identify me, and I'll consider you the most arrogant, hypocritical and useless person around. Everything you just told me just serves to hurt me or someone I loved..and after all of that, you have *nothing* to offer on how it could be better? Really? So...basically, you felt like trashing something to make yourself feel better and superior. Right. Now let's see you live up to your own standard, plz!
 

onemoretime

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I didn't think of it before, but Kalach did mention something I wanna stress...a lot of stuff that's created out there, which to me has some meaning (I'm not talking things that were clearly designed to make money only), is likely to be created by Artisans... often Fi-users. And although their Fi might not be mine, I can nevertheless see the vision they had. Even if the execution is poor, the idea itself, the concept, has merit. And instead of bashing it till nothing's left of it, suggestions on how it could be improved and how great it could be are very much more appreciated, at least in my case. Again, it's cheap and low to me to bash something into the ground and have nothing else to offer in its stead. For that matter, do that to something I actually care a lot for, a person, something I made and thought you would appreciate, for that matter me as a person, or the very actions that identify me, and I'll consider you the most arrogant, hypocritical and useless person around. Everything you just told me just serves to hurt me or someone I loved..and after all of that, you have *nothing* to offer on how it could be better? Really? So...basically, you felt like trashing something to make yourself feel better and superior. Right. Now let's see you live up to your own standard, plz!

Doesn't this have its limitations, however? I mean, you couldn't apply that to a Uwe Boll movie, particularly when it's known that he throws crap movies together to exploit the German film policy, right?
 

Amargith

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See what I wrote between (...) :)
 

onemoretime

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What about Vogon poetry - I mean, it's generally agreed upon (even by them) that it's complete crap, and yet, the go on making it :)
 

Amargith

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It wouldn't exist if someone (most likely the maker) didn't appreciate it :)
 
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