[ENFP] Vindictive ENFP's

[BlueScreen]

I woke up with an answer this morning, because realised I have a similar situation with an INFJ. It has little to do with revenge, or at least in my case. It is about prioritisation. J types tend to work to lists, schedules, etc. I don't. I adapt my time on the fly and find the time. The first instinct when scheduled out, no matter how politely it is explained, is that I come after the 20 million other things she has to do in the next three weeks. I understand some of them might be important, but the fact there is zero seconds for me, when I have seen her once since March, and many for others, instantly shows where things stand. She isn't exactly jumping for joy with interest. It is more of a cold love with little fire in it. When those three weeks end, I am faced with a decision: Do I find time amongst my then busy schedule for her? The first question is why? What potential does it hold? Is it really going anywhere or is it pretty static and just going to stay in some nicely controlled balance? Will I be a love interest or even just a friend, or am I a mere acquaintance who will never find mutual territory or understanding? This takes longer term patterns to get to this point, and you have obviously made more effort to understand the other person than in my case. But a good thing to remember is we don't have set lists or schedules. So there aren't always things we have to do at certain times, and there are also no defined breaks. You can play hard to get, but you never want to drop priority enough that you go off the radar. I adapt and always have the time/resources when I give priority to a person because I care. If I don't give the priority, there is always a more interesting option and I never have the time. I keep in touch, but it is little more than having no reason not to. You can't hate a person for not having time, or wish vengeance upon them, just realise that it means you are very unlikely to be compatible, because you will always feel like the one who is adapting, and it will never feel mutual.

p.s. This is a first instinct, it doesn't reflect the more processed version. The point is he might not get the more processed version of the situation. If he doesn't know he is a P and you are a J and how that all works, it will seem like it is always on your terms. ENFPs don't like others to call the shots for them, they like mutual decisions. We leave it open to find best case for all, not to be lazy and let someone else call it for us. I don't know about INTJs, but maybe there can be an urge in these situations to make a call, because it feels uncomfortable being left open. The call he wants to hear is a description of where you stand and enough information for you both to make a mutual decision. If that is laced with any other emotion such as annoyance with him, he will probably read that too, as well as the words.

This isn't a high maintenance thing, like I always understand that people want to do other things rather than see me all the time, I want to do other things rather than see them, but if it becomes a clear pattern and shows little potential in the future, it becomes a problem. I'm not saying you schedule him out either, just that I've known this dynamic with Ni doms, and how it can cause this reaction in an ENFP who doesn't understand it.

 

[BlueScreen]

Simplified version of the above:

ENFPs prioritise by interest and importance. Any schedule set for an ENFP attempts to adapt itself in this way. If he does not understand the clear difference between your style and his own, he may apply this loosely to your choices. The conclusion he will draw from this is that you are disinterested in him or place him down the list of priorities. If he believes this is the case, he might try to make up for it (if he thinks it is justified and he caused it), or he might see little potential in the relationship and drop its priority.

The question,

"do I stay and see the girl I like who seems to have time for me and is very interested"

is very different to the question,

"do I stay and hang out with the girl who finds other things more important and probably isn't interested anyway."


I'd say your biggest decision is do you really like him and want him as he is? Because that is part of who he is. If the answer is "yes", go for it, adapt, etc. Do a bit of the romantic rather than the problem solving. Once an ENFP feels close and trusts they can be insanely adaptable and resourceful. If the answer is "no", you are chasing something you don't really want, or you don't want unless you can change it. He will probably be aware of this and make the obvious choice. It is a bad choice for you also if this is the case, because he will adapt to make interaction easier, probably become more mature, but long term it is unlikely he will change who he is.

 

[thescientist]

It seems I'm most vindictive when I'm trying to get back at people I really care about. I have no idea why I do it, I guess I'm secretly craving their attention and trying to make them feel guilty..actually, I'm sure that's what it is

I noticed you were Enneagram 7. Im pretty sure this ENFP is also a 7. Perhaps there is some correlation there.

Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

 

[thescientist]

The question,

"do I stay and see the girl I like who seems to have time for me and is very interested"

is very different to the question,

"do I stay and hang out with the girl who finds other things more important and probably isn't interested anyway."

I dont think it's a prioritization issue in his case.

Me showing up at the gym was more than enough of a sign that I wanted to see him and be in his company. Trust me. He even made a funny face and looked at his watch smiling as in, "oh what a coincidence". But in the end he knew he was going to 'get back at me'. Like OneWithSoul said...somehow to make me feel bad or guilty.

I think next time I will just be clear and directly invite him for a swim that way there are no guessing games. If he doesn't accept, oh well.

 

[Thalassa]

Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

If you like this guy, yes, you should give him some attention. Yes, it's going to frustrate him if he likes you - maybe even hurt him. Just don't give him over-much attention. There's a difference between giving an ENFP the affection and attention we truly need, and enabling narcissistic attention-whoring.

How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

Oh. My. God. It makes me crazy.

Again, there should be a balance. Totally ignoring him is going to make things worse, but maybe hesitating to react is okay.

 

[BlueScreen]

I dont think it's a prioritization issue in his case.

Me showing up at the gym was more than enough of a sign that I wanted to see him and be in his company. Trust me. He even made a funny face and looked at his watch smiling as in, "oh what a coincidence". But in the end he knew he was going to 'get back at me'. Like OneWithSoul said...somehow to make me feel bad or guilty.

I think next time I will just be clear and directly invite him for a swim that way there are no guessing games. If he doesn't accept, oh well.

Cool, I thought I'd check it. I think you mentioned you make a lot of effort earlier, I should've remembered.

Directness is good with ENFPs, though being a bit playful works too.

 

[Nonsensical]

I noticed you were Enneagram 7. Im pretty sure this ENFP is also a 7. Perhaps there is some correlation there.

Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

Haha, yes. It's frustrating. Very frustrating. We wouldn't care if it was a friend, but we kind of expect and want someone we're pouring our emotions into to respect it and return the emotion..so it's our little way of manipulation. Passive-Aggressiveness I think.

 

[alexx]

Well - I apologize. I just came across my first Vindictive ENFP. I am so sorry for any sort of pain my type has caused, but I whole-heartedly believe that we can be the biggest jerks in the universe right now.

I think I want to change my type.

 

[BlueScreen]

Well - I apologize. I just came across my first Vindictive ENFP. I am so sorry for any sort of pain my type has caused, but I whole-heartedly believe that we can be the biggest jerks in the universe right now.

I think I want to change my type.

There's no need to apologise for other members of your type. There are actually over 500,000,000 other members of your type. Some are probably murderers, rapists, serial killers... It means nothing about you. Some are champions of peace, world changers, mentors, comedians... And others are both.

 

[thescientist]

Well - I apologize. I just came across my first Vindictive ENFP. I am so sorry for any sort of pain my type has caused, but I whole-heartedly believe that we can be the biggest jerks in the universe right now.

I think I want to change my type.

I dont think you should want to change your type. I LOVE your type! I really do.

I'm just learning to deal with some of the traits of the ENFP. Trust me we INTJ's have plenty of traits to be unproud of as well

 

[Moiety]

There's no need to apologise for other members of your type. There are actually over 500,000,000 other members of your type. Some are probably murderers, rapists, serial killers... It means nothing about you. Some are champions of peace, world changers, mentors, comedians... And others are both.

You jest.... surely...


We are all the same. Just deal with it man.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I just read the OP and it reminded me of how prevalent game playing is in social interaction. Vindictiveness might be part of it, but also if there is a gender difference, there is some precedence for the guy to always maintain the upper hand. A guy could act out that behavior not out of vindictiveness, but to maintain control over the situation. It's a way of playing with the power and vulnerability that results from attraction.

The way I interpret it is that by your not showing up, he felt vulnerable that you weren't as interested as he was. By him not showing up once he verified you were going to swim, he places you in the same position. If you are not interested, then he regains his ego and pride. If you are interested, then you will have a feeling of missing him. I think some people see that as strengthening the feeling in the other person by making them vulnerable.

I think most people engage in that sort of game playing as they are getting involved in a relationship and then after it is established. My understanding is through observation and confusion as I am completely unable to comply and engage in that sort of thing. It's quite alien, but also common. I do think it is more about social power typically than vindictiveness.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I dont think you should want to change your type. I LOVE your type! I really do.

I'm just learning to deal with some of the traits of the ENFP. Trust me we INTJ's have plenty of traits to be unproud of as well

My question for you:

Considering the dishonesty in how he has acted do you still consider him a suitable partner? It's clear to me that if you don't you'll need to cut the apron strings.

If you do, I'm not sure what I would choose to do in that situation and I really don't envy you the task. ENFPs can play with the very fabric of our souls on occassion. I would to be careful as he sounds a little immature.

Otherwise, Good Luck!

 

[thescientist]

My question for you:

Considering the dishonesty in how he has acted do you still consider him a suitable partner? It's clear to me that if you don't you'll need to cut the apron strings.

I know he feels bad about what he did. I threw it in his face over and over again. Told him he broke my heart with a smirk...said he never meant to (it was genuine). I think he really likes me. We just have some differences in values that he probably feels are not worth leaving his current "girl" or "distraction" for. I can see his inner struggle at times. I'm sure he thinks about it often.

If you do, I'm not sure what I would choose to do in that situation and I really don't envy you the task. ENFPs can play with the very fabric of our souls on occassion. I would to be careful as he sounds a little immature.

Otherwise, Good Luck!

Yes, he is quite immature. But I've never been taken aback before by anyone the way I have with him. It's the strongest I've ever felt about anyone. I'm just trying to live in the present and enjoy his company as a friend. It's all I can do. He leaves to another state in a couple of months anyway. So maybe that'll make my life easier

 

[sculpting]

Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

In a long term relationship I would suggest educating the enfp. Explain to them that you will not always exhibit strong signs of attention or caring externally, the way an enfp would, but that you still care very deeply-THUS they dont need to constantly dig for attention to reassure themselves you care. I did not understand INTJs until I had met one, then learned about MBTI. When dealing with this silly vindictive behavior-if you think the person really likes you-kinda poke at them just a bit, and call them on being a bit silly.

An example of me being vindictive:
I knew a boy for several years and was actually had been friends for awhile. We went out for beers a few times, shared books back and forth, and sort of flirted. I ended up a having a few too many and spending the night with him.

He didnt call me at all or interact for a few weeks. We had experienced a bit of a misunderstanding about our mutual interest-I thought he wanted some sort of relationship and he thought it was just a hook up. Even understanding our mutual misunderstanding, I explained he hurt my feelings and I told him I'd avoid him for a few weeks. I havent spoken to him in three months and counting. The "counting" is the vindictive part. I see him at work all the time. He looks at me and smiles or even seeks me out, and I minimize interaction. He doesnt get the fun NeFi anymore, just a polite front.

He failed the Te test? I dunno, it is all very childish and even immature, but some part of me is quite strict about it.

Funny, the front would dissolve IF he called me on it. If he showed up in my office, poked fun at me a little, the whole mess would melt, and I would just giggle a bit. "Oh, you caught me, huh?"

 

[sunshinEnfp]

I noticed you were Enneagram 7. Im pretty sure this ENFP is also a 7. Perhaps there is some correlation there.

Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

I am a 7 as well. Anyway, to answer some of your questions...

Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

YES, YES, YES! I read this post:

Funny, the front would dissolve IF he called me on it. If he showed up in my office, poked fun at me a little, the whole mess would melt, and I would just giggle a bit. "Oh, you caught me, huh?"

And I totally agreed! Going back to that friend I discussed before... I actually started avoiding her because I could not make up my mind if I still wanted to be close friends with her--I felt like her values and mine did not match up anymore. Anyway, even though I was avoiding her, "punishing" her, I wanted her to step up, to contact me, and to CALL ME OUT on what I was doing. Show some emotion! Instead, she acting like everything was okay, which just made me more upset. Finally, one day, she showed an actual hint at frustration with me. I was upset for a second, and then relieved: finally, I realized, she was starting to show she CARED.

I think this comes from the fact that in spite of ourselves, us ENFPs wear our hearts on our sleeves and we wish that other people would do the same. We (or at least, I) am not the best at reading people (when I am directly involved) because I get so caught up in my own web of emotions, so if they are not being blatant about how they feel, it drives me crazy and I just wonder: WHAT'S GOING ON? HOW DO YOU FEEL? DO YOU FEEL THE SAME AS I DO?

How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

Of course, it's immature to be "punishing" other people--but let's be honest, I do it anyway--VERY RARELY, only when I am hurt, and it's usually with people I am close to. And like I said, I can drop it really fast once I realize that they care. But if it seems like they don't... if they continue to ignore or not react, the more frustrated I get to the point of possibly dropping them from my life because I feel like they obviously don't care--so why should I?

I think at the end of the day, ENFPs need constant reassurance. Because we are so emotional, we know that feelings can change--ours do all the time. We go back and forth and find it hard to make a decision. For this reason, we are constantly questioning other people's emotional attachment to us because we know that their feelings may change as well. We just want to know that you care. It could be the littlest things and you might not even need to go out of your way to let us know, but we just need those signs. We're constantly checking and scanning the environment to see how you feel about us. When you are cold or you do something that seems like you don't like us anymore, we may jump to conclusions or be hurt pretty easily. But if you show us that it's okay, we're fine again and we bounce right back and are back to loving you and showering you with affection. At least, that's how I am.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Yes, he is quite immature. But I've never been taken aback before by anyone the way I have with him. It's the strongest I've ever felt about anyone. I'm just trying to live in the present and enjoy his company as a friend. It's all I can do. He leaves to another state in a couple of months anyway. So maybe that'll make my life easier

I understand; hopefully when he moves on you won't be stuck on him and able to start thinking about other partners. Generally people don't realise how all consuming the infatuations of an INTJ can be; we seem to be too honest and direct not to want who we want.

I think at the end of the day, ENFPs need constant reassurance. Because we are so emotional, we know that feelings can change--ours do all the time.

This is a constant worry for INTJs in ENFP relationships as we are fixed and don't change so we feel that you sometimes don't value us (as much) because your feelings continually change.

 

[thescientist]

Generally people don't realise how all consuming the infatuations of an INTJ can be; we seem to be too honest and direct not to want who we want.

you read my heart. Im glad someone can relate.

 

[CzeCze]

Oh TheScientist - what are you still doing with this joker???? Kick him to the curb girl! You don't "friends" like this!

This situation has 'emotional TnT' written all over it.

You remind me a bit of an INTJ I know irl - she also has an ex who wronged her and people would never say she is the most attached person - but she totally gave the ex a pass and tries to keep the ex in her life. For reasons vaguely explained. Basically, she likes her ex. A lot.

I think I can relate with your situation because of the shared "inner child" thing with INTJs as well as ENFPs. I have also tried very hard to keep bad apples around because of strong attraction.

Bad idea.

I like Happy Puppy's idea of trying to educate the ENFP.

But really, I think you are and have been WAAAAAAY too nice on him. And it is completely, utterly illogical so I know you realllllllly like him...

I wish you the best (but seriously, in the short term tell him to wise up)

 

[garbage]

Are you guys normally vindictive? Or is this a sign of an immature ENFP? OMG It drives me batshit insane.

First,

It's like tit for tat or "oh yeah? i'll show you!". And then they get angry when I call them children! :rolli:

Because he had hurt me in the past (led me on, lied to me, etc)..this was my way of proving to him that I was OVER HIM (yeah right uch and that my life did not revolve around him, even though we're friends.

Second, I'd probably say "it's a sign of an immature ENFP," but I wouldn't deny the tendency. Far from it.

This one actually involves an INTJ, too, many a year ago. We actually were in a relationship. Not to say anything about the type as a whole, but.. over time, she became insanely critical and demanding, and I was getting more and more insecure. When I called her on her tendencies, she'd turn it back on me. It was as if she could dish it out, but she couldn't take it.

I actually came to resent her over time, even though, strangely enough, I was still there for her. I wanted out, but couldn't bring myself to end it. When we finally did end it, I was stupid and immature and, primarily out of a lack of self-esteem, wanted her back. In response, she'd completely shut me out of conversations, send me blunt and hurtful emails, and not acknowledge me, all of which hurt me even more. What's worse is that we saw each other almost every day until she moved.

But then she started trying to talk to me again. I reluctantly accepted, because I couldn't bring myself to just bluntly shut her out. In fact, I pretty much knew exactly how to steer our conversations to bring up very subtle jabs at her. She asked me how work was going; I very casually brought up, among other things, the promotion that I'd just received, knowing full well how she'd feel about it. It was pretty clear that she was hurt; she responded with a very meek, "oh, congratulations." This is just one of many examples of this kind of conversation.

A few months later, she invited me out to lunch with some other folks via text message. I'd deleted her number from her phone previously, but I deduced that it must be her because of the area code. Regardless, I said that I'd accept but also asked, "who is this?" Well, during that lunch, I barely spoke a word to her, but I did talk to most everyone else. Oh, and casually brought up my new relationship in those conversations, with her clearly in earshot.

When she moved away, she initiated the "goodbye" and I clearly rushed it, with the insinuation that I had more important things to do. This one was more me trying to protect myself than to hurt her, though.

Basically, I played to the fact that she still trusted me. I knew what our dynamic actually was, and I knew what she thought it was. I played to her perception of me that, because of my career choice, I must be socially inept and not know what I was doing when it came to other people.. so, whoops; these were all just social blunders

This was a lot more "love/hate" than I let on, actually. Most every time I committed one of these "social blunders," I was pretty honest with myself and I knew my motivations. I knew this was just me getting back at her, being unfairly vindictive and unable to let her transgressions go, but I made the conscious decision to commit them anyway. So, to "make up for this," when I was the one to initiate our conversations, I was a lot nicer to her; I obviously still cared about her. It was kind of a strange dynamic overall, which probably confused her even more.

I will say that she's probably the only person I've reacted to in this harsh of a fashion and for so long. It takes a lot to "cross" me in such a big way. And since I had learned how hurt and how vengeful I can get, and that I know how to hurt other people in such a way, I know exactly how to avoid it. In fact, I feel compelled to avoid it, because I virtually never feel like I should "hurt" another person. (I can and do, however, still hold subtle grudges--something that I'm working on.)

Throughout this whole episode, I slowly came to the realization that what I was doing was wrong. I'd think of how to "hurt" her, and I just plain couldn't go through with it. So, yeah; it's a sign of immaturity. But, for the most part, I think it can be surpassed when our value systems and moral integrity finally stand up to our vindictiveness.