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[NF] Emotional abuse and NFs

Siúil a Rúin

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What about NFs being able to recognize subtle warning signs and emotional abuse before other people and types? Couldn't that make them less vulnerable in a way, or do other factors override that?
I think it can. Overall, I'm not even sure I could say NFs are more vulnerable, but my comments are an attempt to describe the specific way an NF might be vulnerable to it. Some other types might have too strong a sense of loyalty or social expectation, while others might be unaware of the emotional dynamic, etc.

There are ways each type is strong in resisting various sorts of harm like emotional abuse just as there are ways different thinking styles makes someone more vulnerable.
 

SilkRoad

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What about NFs being able to recognize subtle warning signs and emotional abuse before other people and types? Couldn't that make them less vulnerable in a way, or do other factors override that?

I think I've not developed this enough, my N is not the strongest for an INFJ, I think. Or, the problem can arise when I find someone particularly attractive (particularly a guy I'm attracted to romantically, but "attractive" could apply in a different way for a woman, too.)

Or...maybe most of all, when they open up to me. I start to think "this person really likes me, they trust me, they're giving me a special place in their life" and I think sometimes that just overrides my better judgment...
 

SilkRoad

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An emotionally abusive person is a deeply tragic scenario. The process of creating an abuser involves violating a human being during their innocence and vulnerability until there is nothing left of that, they catch the disease of cruelty, and then become guilty of imposing it on another. They keep reliving that violation and powerlessness and overcompensate by controlling and oppressing. There may be some element of choice, but cause and effect account for much of what shapes a person.


I think this is a true (and compassionate) way of looking at emotional abusers in some scenarios, but I'm not sure I'd agree that it's always the case. I tend to think that some people are just totally oblivious to the feelings of others, and you don't necessarily have to have been abused yourself to get that way. Personality may be innate up to a point but you can still choose to be selfish, not genuinely caring...etc.
 

monocycle

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I probably can't say anything because I've never really been in an emotionally abusive relationship. But I just don't think I could take it. I used to let people walk all over me in middle school. I look back on that and think to myself how stupid I was to let it happen.

I did have a friend (She was either an ENFP or an ENTP, but I'm leaning toward ENFP) who was in an abusive relationship. She and the guy would fight constantly, break up, and then be back together a few days later. One night she called me and asked me to come over. When I got there, I heard stuff being thrown from inside the house and shouting. I didn't really know what to do. Finally, the guy came outside, didn't say anything to me, and left.

I went inside and she was just sitting there crying on the couch. We talked, and then all of a sudden, he came storming back inside and started shouting at her again. I told him he needed to leave. I thought he was going to hit me. She brought him back to the bedroom and I heard him saying things like it wasn't my business to know what was going on between them and that I shouldn't be there.

He came out of the back room and left again but not before giving me a big 'ol stink eye, and I returned one of my own. She came out right after him and said it'd be best if I went back home and thanked me for coming.

They broke up after that. Everything went fine until one night, about four months after the whole fighting incident I witnessed, she came to see me at my work, and I noticed he was driving. She actually came to ask me for my blessing of their relationship. When I said I wouldn't give it, she blew up at me and brought up a previous guy I had dated and said how I would have taken him back if he wanted me (which was really hurtful because that relationship didn't exactly end on a good note for me).

I calmly stood up, thanked her for outing me at work, and went to the back to vent alone. I have never WILLINGLY spoken to her since then. Needless to say, she and the guy are no longer together. He's now married and has kids.

So, I think NFs, while they can be more prone to being emotionally abused, I think they could also be more prone to defend their abuser.
 
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JoSunshine

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One of my friends (an S) gets very upset with me for this very issue. Her observation, which I think is spot on and very similar to the observations made in this thread, is:

I see the good in people and understand why they are the way they are so instead of focusing on HOW they treat me I focus on WHY they do it...which causes me to be sypathetic to why they are treating me poorly (how messed up is that?). I take things upon myself and think that if I just try a little harder and be more understanding, they will come around. I wait until I am sucked dry and no longer have anything left to give before I finally get out.

I think it is an NF trait not only to understand why people are the way they are, but also to see people's potential and what they "could be". I am finally learning take people more as they are, rather than hoping for what they "could be".
 

Unkindloving

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When it comes to me, i've become bitter and picky about who i let close enough to have the potential to emotionally abuse me (due to previous emotional abuse).
It's good and bad at the same time. I've become the abuser in situations because of it. Some people haven't understood that i retaliate when i feel threatened, especially after i've explained myself before.
On the other hand, if i truly care for someone and they keep making abusive mistakes i will try to give them the benefit of the doubt for longer than i should/otherwise would. A part of me likes to believe people can have common sense and common courtesy. It causes a lot of problems, especially when i feel inclined to try to help them.

At times, i find that people (perhaps NFs specifically) like to sacrifice themselves to try to accept or fix others. The problem there is not recognizing that we are still people and we may be sacrificing our own personal growth and stability for the state of other people who we cannot control the outcome of.
 

Fidelia

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SilkRoad - I grew up in a very emotionally supportive environment. I also find it easy to draw boundaries in most cases. However, for people whom I've already categorized in my mind as good people, whom I have chosen to become close to, sometimes that changes. I tend to put up with some bad behaviour, not because I'm unaware of it or oblivious to its effects.

INFJs are not quick to judge other people without being sure that they fully understand the situation and cannot positively impact it. For me I put up with some things with those I have let into my inner circle because I am

1) trying to establish whether it's me being oversensitive or if it's the other person's actions
2) haven't had enough time to see that so called small incidents all have common underlying themes
3) I believe that the person's motivations aren't bad, although their actions are and they need to be made aware of the impact of their actions.
4) I have not exhausted all of the possibilities I see which could change the situation.
5) It appears to be a temporary reaction while the person is under extreme stress.
6) I am too close to the situation and actually believe that I hold some personal responsibility/guilt for how things are. (This is one thing INFJs have to be concerned about as they are more likely to take blame on themselves than put it on other people initially. This means they can be manipulated to feel unjustifiably bad.)

As time goes on, I think most INFJs become better at shortcutting that process and deciding who is worth investing emotional effort and time in and where to draw appropriate lines for their behaviour. Perhaps we also get better at accurately reading people's motivations sooner. I think we also become more sure of ourselves and our gut instincts. In retrospect, any issues (however slight initially) that I was concerned about at the beginning of a relationship have always born themselves out to be the big deal that I felt they were but couldn't give justification for immediately.

I found it interesting that one of my NF friends could almost always put her finger immediately on why she did or didn't trust someone. I may have known the person much longer than her and found that to be true, but it took me longer to figure it out. I assuemd it was a personality difference between her and I or some inate ability to read people. She explained it had more to do with a wide range of negative early life experiences. When she encountered those same traits in new people then, she much more quickly could make guesses as to their mindset, motivations or character and she was nearly always correct. Interestingly, she had considerably more faith in adults and their ability to change than I do. She also was much more likely to "re-categorize" people in her mind than I was (maybe INFP/INFJ difference?).
 

ergophobe

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I don't know if NFs are generally more susceptible to emotional abuse. I've seen people, across types, complain of being involved in emotionally abusive relationships. Generally, it seems to be correlated with:
1. Poor self-esteem
2. A savior complex
Both of the above make likely victims. Of the NFs I know, all are very accommodating of the relationships in their lives (spouses/family/friends) but the INFJs IRL take the cake in this category...they seem to be (sample of 5 all of whom have taken the test and read the descriptions identifying themselves as INFJs) the most likely to be abused. Their Fe wants to make everything okay for people around them, all the time, at the expense of their own needs. They are also the least likely to ask for help or accept it (Enneagram 2s) but are among the first to offer help. This doesn't make them completely selfless towards everyone - they're still guided, it seems from the outside, by some prioritizing of relationships through a complicated internal process which leads to complete self-abnegation in relation to some (co-dependent relationships) and very 'normal' behavior towards others.

Overall, they seem far more forgiving of behavior I would consider impolite or inconsiderate and I'm pretty forgiving, myself, I think. :cheese: They also have less of a need for independence than the ENFs I know so perhaps that has something to do with it as well. I :heart: the INFJs but their Fe in overdrive can sometimes sweep everything and everyone in its sway and I'd just liked to be asked first, please :smile:
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I think this is a true (and compassionate) way of looking at emotional abusers in some scenarios, but I'm not sure I'd agree that it's always the case. I tend to think that some people are just totally oblivious to the feelings of others, and you don't necessarily have to have been abused yourself to get that way. Personality may be innate up to a point but you can still choose to be selfish, not genuinely caring...etc.
I think I agree with this, but it is an area in which I haven't entirely resolved my position philosophically (and may never). The degree to which choice allows people to self-determine whom they are is not clear to me. It is difficult to decipher what falls under choice and just how much of a person is deterministic. In experience it feels as though there is choice, but that could be an illusion.

I have known people who appear to cause more harm then they were caused, and who make habitual choices to act in a hurtful manner allowing themselves to further evolve their cruelty. In the end I really don't know the relationship between cause-and-effect and choice.
 

proteanmix

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I don't know if NFs are generally more susceptible to emotional abuse. I've seen people, across types, complain of being involved in emotionally abusive relationships. Generally, it seems to be correlated with:
1. Poor self-esteem
2. A savior complex
Both of the above make likely victims. Of the NFs I know, all are very accommodating of the relationships in their lives (spouses/family/friends) but the INFJs IRL take the cake in this category...they seem to be (sample of 5 all of whom have taken the test and read the descriptions identifying themselves as INFJs) the most likely to be abused. Their Fe wants to make everything okay for people around them, all the time, at the expense of their own needs. They are also the least likely to ask for help or accept it (Enneagram 2s) but are among the first to offer help. This doesn't make them completely selfless towards everyone - they're still guided, it seems from the outside, by some prioritizing of relationships through a complicated internal process which leads to complete self-abnegation in relation to some (co-dependent relationships) and very 'normal' behavior towards others.

Overall, they seem far more forgiving of behavior I would consider impolite or inconsiderate and I'm pretty forgiving, myself, I think. :cheese: They also have less of a need for independence than the ENFs I know so perhaps that has something to do with it as well. I :heart: the INFJs but their Fe in overdrive can sometimes sweep everything and everyone in its sway and I'd just liked to be asked first, please :smile:

I wonder how enneagram affects Fe output? Most of the FJs I know are all E2s, while I'm an E1. I definitely see the behavior you've described in my INFJ friends. It makes me want to hug them and slap some sense into them.
 

ergophobe

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It makes me want to hug them and slap some sense into them.

Likewise - hug 'em and slug 'em simultaneously. Mostly, I feel very protective of these peeps but as adult relationships go...there's nothing you can do to stop someone who's decided to give themselves away, body and soul...

So, for the time being, I've decided all I can do is warn of potential or current abuse in the broadest of ways and then run really fast in the opposite direction to, at least, protect myself from being caught up in the sway...

:D

Enneagram and Fe output -- aren't 2s (helpers) and 3s most concerned with image and outside recognition. Just thinking out aloud...
 

Fidelia

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You are right Ergophobe, although from what I've seen here most INFJs are 4s, 1s, or 5s. I still haven't decided what exactly I am, but I do sometimes see myself being able to draw firm lines for some but not for others. It definitely is Fe driven. I still think (at least for me) that there are definite limits to what I will tolerate. It's just that they are further back than what I would accept from others. That's something I've done a lot of thinking about and I believe it is changing over time. It's also a good reason why INFJs really need support people around them and need to be willing to seek out their perspectives for the dynamics they see going on. I have found a couple of friends invaluable in that sense. INFJs can be incredibly stubborn sometimes and so I think it's important for them to be aware of their own tendancies and be open to other's opinions.
 

ergophobe

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You are right Ergophobe, although from what I've seen here most INFJs are 4s, 1s, or 5s. I still haven't decided what exactly I am, but I do sometimes see myself being able to draw firm lines for some but not for others. It definitely is Fe driven. I still think (at least for me) that there are definite limits to what I will tolerate. It's just that they are further back than what I would accept from others. That's something I've done a lot of thinking about and I believe it is changing over time. It's also a good reason why INFJs really need support people around them and need to be willing to seek out their perspectives for the dynamics they see going on. I have found a couple of friends invaluable in that sense. INFJs can be incredibly stubborn sometimes and so I think it's important for them to be aware of their own tendancies and be open to other's opinions.

Hey Layday - I'm sure we all have these weird prioritizing of relationships . I know I do. I just see my INFJ friends putting up with so much more (and that's saying a fair amount, in my case :cry: ) crap than I would ever think was okay. I've found some to be more aware and trying to break out of these patterns while others seem to think their lives depend on them and are quite protective of the same. I think it's the latter sort, that I worry about most. What would help them see that they could set better boundaries?
 

Charmed Justice

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Ergophone mentioned the Savior Complex, and I think it's most common with F types, in general.

NFs can give the benefit of the doubt far too many times, get stuck on the possibility for the relationship(ignoring realities), get caught up in trying to understand, blame themselves illogically, and value the concepts of love and commitment more than themselves.
 

HollyGolightly

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I was emotionally abused throughout all my childhood and adolescent years. I never felt truly loved :( I could brood on it and think "why me" but I trust that it happened for a reason. Without it I wouldn't be the person I am today and I wouldn't have the knowledge I have about certain things.

I still attract emotionally abusive people. I'm very shy, I come across as somebodywho can be easily manipulated. But thanks to my past experiences I'm great at spotting those kinda people and getting out of the situation. Not so great at not feeling the hurt though :(
 

Fidelia

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Wow EnFpFer just said it all!

Fortunately I don't think everyone is doomed to this pattern IF they are reflective and open to other people and try to get out of it. Ergophobe, I know what you are talking about and I wish I knew of a good way to get people to see what they are doing to themselves!

I have seen a couple of women devote their whole lives to an impossible cause that is twisting and isolating them and their children in the process and often even ruining their health and other relationships. My sister is a prime example of this and yet after 20 years, I still do not know how to help her.

The key preventative elements are:
1) Don't get into a relationship before you have a solid sense of self and a support system in place of people whose lives you are contributing to and involved with and whom you can lean on as well.
2) Balance is crucial to maintain a healthy relationship. When any one thing/person in your world becomes the most important, perspective gets off kilter and it creates a lot of unhealthy pressure as well on all involved.
3) Self-care (whether health wise, reducing stress, getting into positive habits, making wise decisions about who to spend time with, not indulging addictive behaviours) sends strong cues to those nearby about how to value the person.
4) People need non-romantic opportunities to practice establishing expectations and boundaries that create healthy relationships.
5) People need a variety of perspectives in their life to help guide them. This is why balance between family, work, friends and relationship matters. It is also why they need different types of people and to voluntarily seek out others' advice or views so they are making informed choices. They need practice doing this before getting into a serious relationship where it is going to be even more difficult to ask for help when it is needed.

Once the (INFJ) person is in a relationship though, I think caring enough to risk conflict with the person is probably important, understanding that it may make all the difference, or it may make them very upset. Also, sharing your own experiences indirectly is useful. Often though, both are difficult because there is not enough proximity to be able to do so. The relationship where they are suffering emotional abuse is too important to them, and it also has isolated them. One possible way to help address that is to look at what needs are being satisfied through that relationship and seeing if there are other ways of offering fulfillment for those needs so that they do not have to hang on so tightly to something that is so destructive.

After 20 years with a very insecure and misathropic man, missing countless family gatherings and other events, my cousin did make some changes. She was 37, and decided that for the sake of her children she needed to start losing weight. The weight she lost, allowed her to realize how little time she ever took for herself and to deal with her family's resistance to her doing so for exercise. The confidence she found from seeing them come to value her more as a result of her valuing herself, as well as the the empowerment of seeing pounds coming off allowed her to start standing her ground in other areas as well. She still accepts more than I think I would, but has started realizing that she needs relationships, positivity, fun and emotional ties in her life. As a result, both her husband's and childrens' lives have been greatly enriched, even though she felt very selfish and guilty about it at first and encountered great resistance. The perspective she's gotten from having friends/family to bounce ideas off of has also allowed her to realize how out of whack things had gotten before without her ever realizing.

I find it harder to draw lines for people close to me when there is not one over the top event that is a deal breaker. Sometimes relationships ebb and flow - people are closer or more distant. It is hard to determine what is natural, what gradual small changes have added up to big unaccepatable ones and where one's own behaviour factors in to all of it. In this sense, I think we can greatly benefit by experience of other people, both in observation and conversation. Also keeping a wide enough range of people in our lives so that we have some checks and balances when our perspective otherwise could become skewed helps tremendously.
 
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Everyone has the capacity for cruelty, I've found. I don't know that some types are more likely to stay in abusive relationships than others. I think sometimes it depends on the person than type- as some people would tolerate emotional abuse, but not physical or vice versa.

I was in an abusive relationship and one that was doomed to fail from its inception. Unfortunately, I am so idealistic that I see myself being able to tolerate just about anything and making it out "okay." This mindset, "Well, I made it through [insert event here] that [insert event 2 here] cannot be worse."

It just doesn't really take into account that emotional wreckage builds up. This isn't healthy in the idea that it assumes I can tolerate anything when I am clearly very, very human with very human flaws. I am overly sensitive, moody, and have a long memory. Not the best combination with someone that is not emotionally in tune with anyone, not even himself.

It has evolved to the point that I really wonder if I am willing to risk any kind of personal security for emotional intimacy with anyone. Rationally, I realize that I need other human beings to keep myself bound to the world. "No man is an island." I believe it.

However, emotionally, I am fairly scarred up/worn out. I simply do not have the patience for people I feel are not or would not be as emotionally dedicated to me as I would be to them. Baggage doesn't necessarily bother me, as everyone carries some, but I refuse to be someone's bad weather friend.

What makes me wonder is how people recover from this brand of "burn out"?
 

ningamer

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I've been through a lot of emotional abuse (and some physical), starting way back in childhood to the end of high school. I've always felt prone to being abused due to my sensitive, quiet, and passive nature. I just seem to have that personality people like to attack. I was often just treated like a punching bag; people loved to project their anger onto me. Because I grew up in an alcoholic home as a child and faced bullying at an early age, I kinda just adapted to being treated like shit and ignored. I never learned what "healthy" was until pretty recently. The impact of the abuse has caused more damage than you can imagine. I still have trouble saying I've been through abuse because I'm so used to changing reality around so everything is my fault (aka I was stupid and never stuck up for myself)
 

HollyGolightly

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I've been through a lot of emotional abuse (and some physical), starting way back in childhood to the end of high school. I've always felt prone to being abused due to my sensitive, quiet, and passive nature. I just seem to have that personality people like to attack. I was often just treated like a punching bag; people loved to project their anger onto me. Because I grew up in an alcoholic home as a child and faced bullying at an early age, I kinda just adapted to being treated like shit and ignored. I never learned what "healthy" was until pretty recently. The impact of the abuse has caused more damage than you can imagine. I still have trouble saying I've been through abuse because I'm so used to changing reality around so everything is my fault (aka I was stupid and never stuck up for myself)

Sweetheart I understand how you feel. I only realised what "healthy" was recently.
And it's not your fault. I know you know that but believing it is a different matter. I mean, is it so wrong to have a big heart and be sensitive? No it's not. It's better than being a complete arsehole who gets off on the pain of others.
The best answer you can give these people is for your compassion and good nature to remain intact. Their sole goal is to break you, if you don't give them what they want you have won :) So all this crap people spurt about not sticking up for yourself lets the bullies win...pfttt, ignore it. Sometimes it's impossible to stick up for yourself because it just simply won't help the situation. You can't control how people behave, if they wanna be unkind they will be regardless of whether you protest or not.

Like my signature says, be yourself :) Continuing to do so really gives people their answer and shows a lot of courage and strength :)

I'm getting all sentimental in my old age :blush:
 

Ethiope

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What about NFs being able to recognize subtle warning signs and emotional abuse before other people and types? Couldn't that make them less vulnerable in a way, or do other factors override that?

I think this is true and not true depending on your experience. I've dealt with some emotional abuse and didn't really see the damage-potential at first due to plain naivete.
I think when I was younger I just couldn't believe that someone would be that hateful because I wouldn't be that hateful.

After having experienced that, however, I think I'm really good at picking the tendency up in others very quickly and getting far, far away from them. I've had friends tell me I make my judgements too soon sometimes, but that's a chance I'll take to avoid an emotionally abusive person.
 
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