[Fe] Fe fail in INFJs

[cascadeco]

I'm not picking up on anything that seems decidedly un-INFJ, Usehername, and I could imagine myself acting similarly or saying similar things (except for actually asking in the end if it was worth your visiting...but my point is that even though I can't relate to the specifics of what she said, no doubt when I'm nervous I say a few equally pointless things simply because I'm anxious). I don't know enough INTJ's to comment on how well she fits a feel-y INTJ )), but I do know there can be a lot of similarities between the two INxJ's, and several INFJ's on this forum have tested as INTJ in the past, or still do.

 

[Tiltyred]

I don't get INFJ out of it.

 

[Usehername]

Thanks guys.

I just want her to not feel judged by me (hence the wondering more specifically about type to know the motives of that feeling), I guess that's both hers and mine to work out on both of our ends.

@Cascade: she only said "you're a hard read," she didn't actually say "am I worth your while," she just knew how much I had on my plate and was dealing with, so it was more like she didn't want to be on my huge list of tasks to get through, she wanted to be someone I wanted to spend time with.

 

[Billy]

Something interesting a friend wrote about how Fe is differnt for INFJs and such then others.
***********

Something to note about the descriptions of Fi, and especially Fe...

Most of the 'research' done on these two functions comes through the filter of S types, which skews the perspective for these functions toward Se and Si.

The NFP population is roughly 10%, so there is a fair amount of Fi input when paired with Ne, but most Fi dominant (and secondary) users are SFPs. Keep that in mind when considering the descriptions of Fi. There is usually a bias toward Se thinking when it is presented, but from what I've read Fi is fairly well represented as a unique function unto itself.

However, the NFJ population is less than 2%, while the SFJ population is close to 25%. The vast majority of input on the subject of Fe comes from Si users. The notions that Fe tends toward politenesses, social contract, and emotional currency come from this pairing of Fe with Si - which is a very 'conventional' function. Si likes tradtion, repitition, and rote. For an Si user, Fe manifests through such practices.

However, Ni users are nearly the exact opposite. We have little use for tradtion, repitition, and rote. We see the hidden patterns, focus on the unknown, and are looking to the future so intently we often fail to notice the present. Ni and Fe users do not focus nearly as heavily on social ritual as we do the actual needs of other individuals.

For example, SFJs prefer to engage in "Good morning, <person's name>. How are you today?" "I am fine. How are you, <person's name>?" "very good, thank you (even if they're not). How did <remembered detail that was of concern to the person they're talking to> go?" "Quite well, thank you. How is <returned detail of concern to the person they're talking to> going?" etc. The SFJs are showing concern for one another by walking through an expected social rote, asking about details of concern to the person they are speaking to show that they care (this is an example of social currency), while minimizing (or outright denying) their own hardships so as to not upset others.

Meanwhile, NFJs tend to prefer to handle the same situation differently. Before any words are exchanged, the NFJs are reading each other for the answers to the following - How is the other person feeling? Are they alright? Is there anything to be concerned about? Are they busy? What is the best way to approach them at this moment? We're amazingly adept at detecting these things in others, and in exponential proportion to how well we know the person in question. Once we determine this, our social interaction follows suit, but is always situational to the factors we've determined. For example, if we determine someone is busy, we smile at them and leave them to their attention. If we see that someone is in need of warmth, we show it to them in as sincere a way as we can, which only includes social conventions when we know that person needs them.

Fe's motivations are the same - concern for and caring about others -, regardless if it is paired with Si or Ni. However, it manifests very differently because of the perspectives of Si or Ni.

But, there is another aspect to Fe that is lost in most of the descriptions I've read...

More than a concern for others, which is just a side effect, the true nature of Fe is that Fe is philosophical reasoning. (While Fi is abstract reasoning.)

Fe is right brained reasoning, with an external focus. (Where Fi is right brained reasoning with an internal focus.)

Fe is the clear sense of knowing how you feel things should be, and what others want. Fe feels that this should be this way, and that should be that way. (Fi is a clear sense of how you feel you should be, and what you want for yourself.)

Fe is the sense of right and wrong. (Where as Fi is the sense of good and bad.)

 

[Lauren Ashley]

^I like that description, Billy.

It describes well how I use Fe. Rather than the social etiquette/niceties descriptions I usually see to describe Fe.

 

[Tiltyred]

It's likely that her fearing judgment or feeling judged is not particular to you, so I'm not sure there is anything you can do about it. Maybe that is just part of her personality and it will show itself from time to time despite any reassurances.

 

[Billy]

^I like that description, Billy.

It describes well how I use Fe. Rather than the social etiquette/niceties descriptions I usually see to describe Fe.

I cant take credit, a friend of mine on the INFJ forum wrote it, he is quite intelligent and I agree with you.

Fe for NFs has nothing to do with societal etiquette.

 

[cascadeco]

Meanwhile, NFJs tend to prefer to handle the same situation differently. Before any words are exchanged, the NFJs are reading each other for the answers to the following - How is the other person feeling? Are they alright? Is there anything to be concerned about? Are they busy? What is the best way to approach them at this moment? We're amazingly adept at detecting these things in others, and in exponential proportion to how well we know the person in question. Once we determine this, our social interaction follows suit, but is always situational to the factors we've determined. For example, if we determine someone is busy, we smile at them and leave them to their attention. If we see that someone is in need of warmth, we show it to them in as sincere a way as we can, which only includes social conventions when we know that person needs them.

I think the bolded is why it's tougher initially, and especially when there aren't many cues to be read, or when the signals are mixed.

Anyway, I've always felt Fe is more slanted - in literature as well as on the forums - towards a tie with Si. That's why I tend to be bothered when people think of Fe as pure social etiquette, because while that's an element of it, it isn't applicable in nearly the same way for the NFJ's as it is for the SFJ's (especially ESFJ's). And, it's why on cognitive functions tests my Fe was always pretty darn low...because the tests also tend to slant towards the more superficial elements of Fe, and the more extroverted, hostessing elements to boot.

 

[Billy]

Yes my INFJ children! Come forth and take back our version of Fe from the stereotypical ties everyone hoists upon us!

 

[simulatedworld]

Oh man...the Ni-Ti INFJs are an interesting corollary to the more commonly discussed Ni-Fi INTJs. And I think they have an even harder time dealing with the outside world.

I know one Ni-Ti INFJ and it genuinely pains me to see how passionately he wants to connect with others through Fe, but something blocks him from doing it to his fullest potential. Even worse is that as an Ni dom, he's totally aware of that potential and how much he's missing out on. It's really upsetting, honestly.

 

[Usehername]

Interesting input, everyone!

If there is potential wisdom to be offered rooted within some of the ideas in this thread, by all means keep talkin' because I'm interested.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I cant take credit, a friend of mine on the INFJ forum wrote it, he is quite intelligent and I agree with you.

Fe for NFs has nothing to do with societal etiquette.

I might need to visit that forum more often, it seems they have some good info.

Anyway, I've always felt Fe is more slanted - in literature as well as on the forums - towards a tie with Si. That's why I tend to be bothered when people think of Fe as pure social etiquette, because while that's an element of it, it isn't applicable in nearly the same way for the NFJ's as it is for the SFJ's (especially ESFJ's). And, it's why on cognitive functions tests my Fe was always pretty darn low...because the tests also tend to slant towards the more superficial elements of Fe, and the more extroverted, hostessing elements to boot.

I despise those descriptions of Fe, they just sound so empty and trivial; nothing like what I do. In fact I tend to be annoyed by social etiquette if I don't understand what purpose it's serving besides going through the motions. Then again, there are apparently some INFJs that relate to those descriptions, I just never have.

 

[Usehername]

I despise those descriptions of Fe, they just sound so empty and trivial; nothing like what I do. In fact I tend to be annoyed by social etiquette if I don't understand what purpose it's serving besides going through the motions. Then again, there are apparently some INFJs that relate to those descriptions, I just never have.

Because it's extroverted, though, shouldn't there be an action and results oriented rather than perceptive nature to NFJ Feness? Otherwise there's not much difference between the INTJ and the INFJ--IIRC we've had an INTJ discussion on here where INTJs can focus their goal-oriented selves on perceiving when things are off about others, but they lack the Fe to act in a way to fix it.

How is that different?

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Because it's extroverted, though, shouldn't there be an action and results oriented rather than perceptive nature to NFJ Feness?

There is action taken:

We're amazingly adept at detecting these things in others, and in exponential proportion to how well we know the person in question. Once we determine this, our social interaction follows suit, but is always situational to the factors we've determined. For example, if we determine someone is busy, we smile at them and leave them to their attention. If we see that someone is in need of warmth, we show it to them in as sincere a way as we can, which only includes social conventions when we know that person needs them.

 

[BlueSprout]

I am definitely not speaking for other INFJ's, as I think this will vary.

I can understand Fe reading like politeness and sympathy, because frankly I AM much of the time just trying and wanting to be respectful of others. My own needs are more fluid/less important sometimes, and especially in social interactions, I'll adjust my method of communication depending on who I'm interacting with - just because my method of communication isn't a defining element for me to begin with; if anything, it's the tendency to adjust that IS the defining element. As for awkwardness, yeah, I can be totally socially awkward/inept; it's tied to introversion as well as the Ni I think. And tied to what I wrote in my first post on here, the fluidity/confidence I have is hugely dependent on the other person, and how the dynamic itself operates. If the other person is more withdrawn, I have a harder time engaging. If the other person is more animated and confident, I play off that really well. Etc. Also, I've written elsewhere on here that just because I don't personally feel I'll ever connect deeply with someone else, doesn't mean I don't think the person deserves to be treated well and it's not like I don't still want to try to understand them better or lack the curiosity, or at least desire to appreciate them/connect with them on whatever level I can appreciate them on.

Emotional distance for me could be explained in two ways - 1. I am only really vulnerable/open with those I really want to be open with, trust, want to invest in, and see a deep relationship potential with, and 2. Connecting with people emotionally isn't my natural language anyway. This is probably an Ni/Fi difference. My prime mode isn't necessarily connecting on this level, and I'm not necessarily aiming for that kind of interaction anyway. I'm more interested in topics, issues, philosophy, and the like...more intellectual stuff, not necessarily deeply personal...so yeah, for me I would say I'm not naturally attuned/proficient in honing in on an emotional wavelength. I think I can be really good at making people feel appreciated and liked, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a deep emotional bond in the sense that I think dom-Fi's appreciate and naturally go towards. I like *understanding* people and why they do things, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to need or want to let down my emotional walls with everyone as a means of connecting, or I even want to go there.

(edit: good lord, I used my quota of 'necessarily's' for the rest of the week. )





Yeah, for myself, I tend to be more engaged/animated when talking about the larger context, culture, society, and the like. Not so much on the individual level, although with people I'm really close to the emotional engagement applies to those individuals as well.

Thank you for this perspective. I am very familiar with Fi and channel it when I need to help someone emotionally. Fe is a different animal, and I shouldn't expect the same kind of interactions from Fe users.

I have to admit, though, it's pretty unsettling when I get the impression that someone understands me so well, but their interaction with me doesn't show awareness of what makes me comfortable or uncomfortable. It's not the INFJs' fault, of course. But please be patient with the INFP lack of Ni. Sometimes we don't "get it".

Anyway, I've always felt Fe is more slanted - in literature as well as on the forums - towards a tie with Si. That's why I tend to be bothered when people think of Fe as pure social etiquette, because while that's an element of it, it isn't applicable in nearly the same way for the NFJ's as it is for the SFJ's (especially ESFJ's). And, it's why on cognitive functions tests my Fe was always pretty darn low...because the tests also tend to slant towards the more superficial elements of Fe, and the more extroverted, hostessing elements to boot.

This is something that is helpful to know. Those Si-based descriptions probably color the way I percieve Fe when I'm interacting with people I suspect are INFJs. I need to be more sensitive to the nuances. That said, I didn't mean to imply that the motives for politeness are superficial for the INFJs I know (their senses of moral responsibility to others are very strong indeed), only that the ways they approach it reflect measured benevolence more than warm empathy. It just doesn't sync as well with Fi 'caring'. Of course, Fe is more universal and less self-centered, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

This is something that is helpful to know. Those Si-based descriptions probably color the way I percieve Fe when I'm interacting with people I suspect are INFJs. I need to be more sensitive to the nuances. That said, I didn't mean to imply that the motives for politeness are superficial for the INFJs I know (their senses of moral responsibility to others are very strong indeed), only that the ways they approach it reflect measured benevolence more than warm empathy. It just doesn't sync as well with Fi 'caring'. Of course, Fe is more universal and less self-centered, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

How close are you with these INFJs? I think you said you aren't very familiar with them. From what I can tell, with the majority of INFJs, if you aren't close or one of their intimates, they won't come across as very warm. I am generally perceived as being pretty cold and even brusque by those that are just acquaintances or now-and-again type friends. I'll stick with discussing impersonal and abstract topics. But anyone who knows me well would say that I am extremely empathetic and caring, on a personal as well as universal level (actually I probably specialize in personal relations due to my variant, sx).

And I second everything said by cascadeco in this post:

I am definitely not speaking for other INFJ's, as I think this will vary...

Also, Usehername, I meant to ask: what differences do you notice, if any, between INFJ sx and INFJ sp (as most INFJs are)?

 

[Glycerine]

That makes so much sense that Fe descriptions always seem to have a Si bent. No wonder why even though I'm Fe dominant ENFJ, I always felt like my Fe was broken. Just like the INFJs, my Fe seems to act according to what the situation calls for. In other words, it's very situationally dependent.

 

[Usehername]

Also, Usehername, I meant to ask: what differences do you notice, if any, between INFJ sx and INFJ sp (as most INFJs are)?

I don't know many INFJs, but things about her that might be atypical:

She seems to thrive on melding into another soul. Though she does like me she clearly likes the high that comes from personally connecting for a moment through a one-on-one discussion or when we exchange glances in a larger social setting and have a shared moment of syncing.

I mentioned this one in an earlier TypeC thread, but when I was still her student and addressing her formally she sent emails on two occasions, literally saying, "you should know me better than that," and now it's clear that you, LA, were right in that it bothered her to know that I didn't completely understand her. This implies that she needs to be known by those she cares about. I think this is common to NFs or perhaps people in general, but I think it hurt her feelings a little bit that I didn't completely understand her.

She's more of a romantic, even platonically--for example, she really liked our small, women's only writing class and wrote a heartfelt letter to us expressing her feelings and appreciation (though she did say we weren't allowed to open it in front of her because she'd be embarrassed by her show of emotions, lol).

I think she takes more interpersonal emotional risks not because it's any less risky for her to be vulnerable but because she craves the deep connections more.

What are your thoughts, LA?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I despise those descriptions of Fe, they just sound so empty and trivial; nothing like what I do. In fact I tend to be annoyed by social etiquette if I don't understand what purpose it's serving besides going through the motions. Then again, there are apparently some INFJs that relate to those descriptions, I just never have.

Etiquette makes me rather anxious. I think I also fail at Fe when there are a myriad of social tensions all bouncing off each other. Also, when everyone hops on some bandwagon, I instinctively start with other explanations. Sometimes the crowd is right about something, and I'm left behind still being devil's advocate.

The empathy aspect of Fe runs high in me especially when reading body language along with word use. I find everyone uses language differently and in order to form a baseline for what their words mean, it helps to get an overall vibe. Almost all of my adult students have high anxiety about learning a new instrument. I can feel their anxiety in my stomach and pick out specifics about it in their words. A lot of my day is spent depressurizing that anxiety in people. It is almost like a task-oriented counseling session in that they often come in with baggage and leave with less.

 

[BlueSprout]

How close are you with these INFJs? I think you said you aren't very familiar with them. From what I can tell, with the majority of INFJs, if you aren't close or one of their intimates, they won't come across as very warm. I am generally perceived as being pretty cold and even brusque by those that are just acquaintances or now-and-again type friends. I'll stick with discussing impersonal and abstract topics. But anyone who knows me well would say that I am extremely empathetic and caring, on a personal as well as universal level (actually I probably specialize in personal relations due to my variant, sx).

And I second everything said by cascadeco in this post:


Also, Usehername, I meant to ask: what differences do you notice, if any, between INFJ sx and INFJ sp (as most INFJs are)?

I'm only casual friends with two INFJs. I've never had one as a significant other. I'm sure my impressions have a lot to do with this limited experience. I have seen and been the recipient of INFJ 'comforting', but I've never seen one try to help a close loved one in that way. Also, I think I (unreasonably) expect a general warmth, openness and personability from NFs sometimes. That probably skews my perception too.