[ENFJ] Overpowering the ENFJ charm.

[Heinel]

But here's the thing... I think a lot of ENFJs don't think they consciously try to make people feel a certain way, but I think it happens anyway... even if the ENFJ is unaware of it (and the other person, too).

+1

That's what I saw too.

 

[yenom]

I'm trying to do the heaviest undertaking an NP has to go through--break the ENFJ charm aura.

This is something I've pondered lately. Well, NPs have too much free time in their hands anyway. I was thinking as to why ENFJs always get to pwn me. Or anyone for that matter.

Basic ENFJ charm seems to work something like this.

1. She listens to you. Then UNDERSTANDS you.

E.g.,
Me: "Sorry if I have to bring you to this. Even if I'm in my late 20s, I'm still into comic books. And toys."
Her: "Haha! I read Batman"
Me: "Huh?"
Her: "DK. Frank Miller. I love it."
Me: "Really?"
Her: "I read comics. You know that Galactus Build-A-Figure thingie? I gave one to my ex as a gift. Haha!"



If that conversation will not pwn you...

2. She flirts with you.

E.g.,
Me: "Well, haha! You can't always use your charm, right? It's not like you can get away with everything using it. And...errr....it's kinda unfair. Maybe your guy has a point too, and...."
Her: "Well, it's not as if you would choose to hang out with him over me. Haha! is there a dilemma there to begin with? You always.....know.....which side to choose. *winks*
Me: "Errrrr.....yeah, I guess"

3. She wants you to tell the details of your sentiments.

E.g.
Me: "It's basically you asking the details about my sentiments that you already know."
Her: "I don't know." *winks*
Me: "You always know the details of what I want to say, even if I say them half encrypted."
Her: "What do you want to say?" *winks*


See, she already pwned me when she said she reads Batman. But still, she wants more pwnage by making me state my sentiments in detail. Which is sorta double whammy pwnage. And then, she hardly says anything about herself.

4. If you don't state your sentiments in detail and you decide to go on the offensive with your Ne sarcasm, she'll make you jealous.

E.g.,
Her: "You can't do that to me right now."
Me: "And why's that?"
Her: "Because Daniel (another member of the ENFJ fan club) has been sending me good text messages lately, and his is better than yours."
Me: "He's just more gullible."
Her: "So you still wanna be sarcastic?"
Me: "Do guys always have to be that Antonio Banderas cat in Shrek with that cutey eyes and all to you, Puss N Boots style?"
Her: "Haha! Always. Much better that way." *winks*



You end up either getting so frustrated (which you shouldn't be, because it make you such a loser), or you end up trying to compete with an imaginary 'Daniel'. You don't know if such a person actually exists, but knowing the fan club, he probably does.

_____________________

After that Ne versus her Fe slugfest, in which probably Ne will lose, you may actually be tempted to go to step 3 and actually tell her your sentiments.

I don't know. ENFJs want to make an Edward Cullen smooth talker out of every guy. Well, most of them seem to like Edward Cullen anyway. They just seem to hate him when they got to like Harry Potter first. And let's not even go to whom they like in the Tolkien world.

Maybe they are also capable of mind control?
Its not really charm when you can see through it.

The combined powers of a balanced ENTJ and a balanced ENFJ would be frightening and awe inspiring to behold.

Really? What are you going to do? I am curious? Conquer the world with love?

 

[nynesneg]

But here's the thing... I think a lot of ENFJs don't think they consciously try to make people feel a certain way, but I think it happens anyway... even if the ENFJ is unaware of it (and the other person, too).

I am very intrigued with your perspective. We must be alot more powerful than we think. lol. Care to give examples? I just see it as finding ways to connect with people and relate to them on their level... You know, being able to talk about whatever they are interested in. But how do we make people feel a certain way?

Maybe they are also capable of mind control?
Its not really charm when you can see through it.

rofl... psychic powers? How do I get on board? I want to get everyone to do things my way. This could solve all my problems, better job, better achievements, better house, better car, the possibilities are endless!

Really? What are you going to do? I am curious? Conquer the world with love?

Na, just charasmatically brainwash everyone into becoming minions of our evil plots.

 

[Kalach]

I am very intrigued with your perspective. We must be alot more powerful than we think. lol. Care to give examples? I just see it as finding ways to connect with people and relate to them on their level... You know, being able to talk about whatever they are interested in. But how do we make people feel a certain way?

I don't know, but it's there by definition: F is a judgment function, Fe is focused on the world outside the Fe-user herself, it's creative, generative and directive. I have no idea how it works other than observing that Fe users have needs, and they arrive on the scene like a pressure for me to perform. One sees it in smiles or chills or frowns or false notes or joyfulness, and it's probably present in word choice and absolutely it's present in decision-making signals.

There's a reason ENFJs are called propagandists.

INFJs have that too, but they're far less energised by the combat and they opt out of the high-powered, highly interactive directioneering.

 

[Heinel]

I don't know, but it's there by definition: F is a judgment function, Fe is focused on the world outside the Fe-user herself, it's creative, generative and directive. I have no idea how it works other than observing that Fe users have needs, and they arrive on the scene like a pressure for me to perform. One sees it in smiles or chills or frowns or false notes or joyfulness, and it's probably present in word choice and absolutely it's present in decision-making signals.

There's a reason ENFJs are called propagandists.

INFJs have that too, but they're far less energised by the combat and they opt out of the high-powered, highly interactive directioneering.

The most fearful part of it I think is that sometimes even if you know they are manipulating, the feelings that they wish upon you will still get through. If they want you hurt, you will feel it, in the most extreme way possible...

 

[OrangeAppled]

But here's the thing... I think a lot of ENFJs don't think they consciously try to make people feel a certain way, but I think it happens anyway... even if the ENFJ is unaware of it (and the other person, too).

I don't think there's any conscious, manipulative aspect to it.

I just see it as finding ways to connect with people and relate to them on their level... You know, being able to talk about whatever they are interested in. But how do we make people feel a certain way?

It's the effort to connect that does it. You make people feel good (ie. by showing personal interest), they open up, you understand them more, they feel understood & feel even better, etc. It all starts by bringing out an emotional reaction in them. ENFJs have an uncanny, natural ability to do this. I think it doesn't feel like you are trying to make people feel anything because you probably aren't trying - you are just being you.

 

[nynesneg]

What's wrong with that? I love helping people feel better! If I can do something special for them in the slightest way it makes life seem more worthwhile... I made some teddy bears for sick kids in the hospital the other day and my entire night felt more at peace for helping them feel loved during a difficult time. I guess the Fe perspective can be explained in my NF Epiphany thread...

So the entire complaints in this thread are about people who felt "manipulated" by the care/connection from an ENFJ, and didn't want to be understood. In their POV the natural ENFJ made them too comfortable opening up and conveyed a false sense of warmth?

Am I getting it now?

 

[Domino]

I've heard over and over how we "make" people feel things, and I still find that to be rubbish. Or should I say, I'll never be able to understand it. People make ME feel things all the time - as strong as my Fe is, I can't get away from others' feelings, not the other way 'round.

Just because my presence is causing an emotional response in you does NOT mean that I orchestrated it or did it by design. You can believe if you're feeling something, I am too, and in Technicolor.

The objects of my affection (friend, family, boyfriends etc) *should* feel strongly about me. I feel that way about them.

 

[Heinel]

Sure, I won't deny that I've guilt tripped my boyfriend a few times for my advantage/revenge when he did something particularly upsetting. But what female doesn't do that?

Being male or female has nothing to do with it. It is a very unethical excuse, in addition to being politically incorrect, I might add. Emotion as a weapon is far more damaging than a physical one. Many psychological wounds, even if the person consciously willed them away, still lies in the subconscious. It's the most inhumane way to hurt somebody. No exceptions.

 

[Cypocalypse]

What's wrong with that? I love helping people feel better! If I can do something special for them in the slightest way it makes life seem more worthwhile... I made some teddy bears for sick kids in the hospital the other day and my entire night felt more at peace for helping them feel loved during a difficult time. I guess the Fe perspective can be explained in my NF Epiphany thread...

So the entire complaints in this thread are about people who felt "manipulated" by the care/connection from an ENFJ, and didn't want to be understood. In their POV the natural ENFJ made them too comfortable opening up and conveyed a false sense of warmth?

Am I getting it now?




Sure, I won't deny that I've guilt tripped my boyfriend a few times for my advantage/revenge when he did something particularly upsetting. But what female doesn't do that?

LOL! What the thread meant was "I love ENFJs". That's just an NTP way of saying it. LOL!

 

[Kalach]

Ironically I read Blackcat's Type Five profile before coming to this thread again.

Anyhoo, what's up with the disavowal of your influence? It's like an ENTJ turning up and saying, oh no, no, I don't have much effect on what happens, I don't decide anything really. But you guys do create environments, you do direct action, you do seek to get inside people. You do.

Are you guys saying you DON'T like doing that kind of thing? You don't like people, you don't like being with them, you don't like knowing what's right and wrong for them, you don't like helping?


(More to the point perhaps, are you saying you have a choice?)

 

[Domino]

I can choose how I behave around people. I can choose how I treat others. Just as others can choose how to respond to me. You can't "help" spontaneous emotions, but you can choose how you react to them. I don't ascribe that level of power to myself, that I can sing Odysseus off the mast into my watery grave. How do I have any more power over someone than anyone else?

I will say this. In the garage where I worked, if I was deeply upset or sad, if the silence inside me took me over, the social part of the garage ground to a halt. I was astonished to see my silence or my intense sadness spread like a wave through the others. It was embarrassing. It only compounded my confusion and my need to flee - which I did 99% of the time to get control of myself, but when I couldn't, the roof came down around our ears. A lot of horrible things were happening to me at that time - I was under tremendous stress, and when I finally warped under the strain, they came down with me, and to this day, I CANNOT understand it. Even my foreman commented on it once. When I arrived in a good mood, the garage was in a good mood. When I arrived distraught or exhausted, the energy levels dropped.

I don't know what to make of it. I never will. Though I must say, I've had others in my life that did that very same thing to me, had that effect on me.

 

[fill]

Overreact to everything they say- like laugh really hard at a joke they make that shouldn't be that funny.

edit: oh, insulting them so dryly that they can't tell if you're kidding or now can weird them out.

example,
(i open my drawer under my desk)
enfj: cool shot glass.
me: thanks, don't you have the same one?
enfj: haha, no, but I probably need one.
me: Oh... they gave it to me at orientation.
enfj: Ohhh, really? You're so special.
me: Yes, I am. Why didn't they give you one? Maybe you didn't deserve it.
enfj: .... ?

 

[OrangeAppled]

What's wrong with that? I love helping people feel better! If I can do something special for them in the slightest way it makes life seem more worthwhile... I made some teddy bears for sick kids in the hospital the other day and my entire night felt more at peace for helping them feel loved during a difficult time. I guess the Fe perspective can be explained in my NF Epiphany thread...

So the entire complaints in this thread are about people who felt "manipulated" by the care/connection from an ENFJ, and didn't want to be understood. In their POV the natural ENFJ made them too comfortable opening up and conveyed a false sense of warmth?

Am I getting it now?

Nothing is wrong with that, and no one seems to be complaining. People are just discussing how ENFJs come across and analyzing their behavior (pretty much what goes on at this board ). If anything, most of the posts in here seem to find this aspect of ENFJs charming.

 

[sunshinEnfp]

Oh, it's so interesting to see the ENFJs post here because I really feel like they DO NOT understand the effect they have or that it is something special and something rare that most people cannot do.

Here's the thing with your subconscious manipulation: you are just encouraging people to be/do the best thing. The only thing is... there is bias in that. Sometimes the best thing in your eyes is not THE BEST THING in general. I hope I am communicating this clearly.

My closest friends are ENFJs and I am kind of dating one, and... while they are all different people, it's interesting to see how they can make one feel. For the most part, I love being around them. But I have seen how one of my less-than-healthy friends has manipulated ME into trying to feel good about doing something, that it would be "the best thing," when really, she was only looking out for herself. If not for MBTI, I probably would not have noticed... it's so subtle.

Not sure what my point is... but I guess I am trying to say... even though you are just BEING YOURSELVES, a lot of times, there's a motive (even if it is just helping people) behind most of what you do in a social context. It's what has people opening up to you and saying things that they would not even tell their closest friends. You disarm people and I know that I try to fight it with some of my ENFJ friends, but a lot of times, I find myself weak in their presence... it's like it's a super power and I can see it happening to me, I can see myself falling into their trap of what they want, but I am helpless to stop it.

Of course, this is just mostly with my more manipulative friends (whom I did not realize were as manipulative as they are until I read MBTI and was able to really analyze and for the first time, see their behavior).

 

[Heinel]

Oh, it's so interesting to see the ENFJs post here because I really feel like they DO NOT understand the effect they have or that it is something special and something rare that most people cannot do.

Here's the thing with your subconscious manipulation: you are just encouraging people to be/do the best thing. The only thing is... there is bias in that. Sometimes the best thing in your eyes is not THE BEST THING in general. I hope I am communicating this clearly.

My closest friends are ENFJs and I am kind of dating one, and... while they are all different people, it's interesting to see how they can make one feel. For the most part, I love being around them. But I have seen how one of my less-than-healthy friends has manipulated ME into trying to feel good about doing something, that it would be "the best thing," when really, she was only looking out for herself. If not for MBTI, I probably would not have noticed... it's so subtle.

Not sure what my point is... but I guess I am trying to say... even though you are just BEING YOURSELVES, a lot of times, there's a motive (even if it is just helping people) behind most of what you do in a social context. It's what has people opening up to you and saying things that they would not even tell their closest friends. You disarm people and I know that I try to fight it with some of my ENFJ friends, but a lot of times, I find myself weak in their presence... it's like it's a super power and I can see it happening to me, I can see myself falling into their trap of what they want, but I am helpless to stop it.

Of course, this is just mostly with my more manipulative friends (whom I did not realize were as manipulative as they are until I read MBTI and was able to really analyze and for the first time, see their behavior).

Yeah, I met an ENFJ that talked really loud to an ENTJ about how he is so "not into manipulating." I don't know. It just seems so weird since he did manipulate people, including me.

 

[nynesneg]

You see a side of us "manipulating people" that is completely invisible to our own eyes.


We are unconscious of it 97% of the time.

 

[TopherRed]

Oh, it's so interesting to see the ENFJs post here because I really feel like they DO NOT understand the effect they have or that it is something special and something rare that most people cannot do.

Here's the thing with your subconscious manipulation: you are just encouraging people to be/do the best thing. The only thing is... there is bias in that. Sometimes the best thing in your eyes is not THE BEST THING in general. I hope I am communicating this clearly.

My closest friends are ENFJs and I am kind of dating one, and... while they are all different people, it's interesting to see how they can make one feel. For the most part, I love being around them. But I have seen how one of my less-than-healthy friends has manipulated ME into trying to feel good about doing something, that it would be "the best thing," when really, she was only looking out for herself. If not for MBTI, I probably would not have noticed... it's so subtle.

Not sure what my point is... but I guess I am trying to say... even though you are just BEING YOURSELVES, a lot of times, there's a motive (even if it is just helping people) behind most of what you do in a social context. It's what has people opening up to you and saying things that they would not even tell their closest friends. You disarm people and I know that I try to fight it with some of my ENFJ friends, but a lot of times, I find myself weak in their presence... it's like it's a super power and I can see it happening to me, I can see myself falling into their trap of what they want, but I am helpless to stop it.

Of course, this is just mostly with my more manipulative friends (whom I did not realize were as manipulative as they are until I read MBTI and was able to really analyze and for the first time, see their behavior).

Sunshine...eh...not really sure where to start. As ENFJs mature, they become more aware of their "power". I try not to use it selfishly, but I'm probably at about 56% non-awareness as opposed to 99%. When I do "use" my influence, I try to ask myself "how is this helping me"? When I come up with an answer, I'll sometimes just let the scenario play out without my involvement (i.e. I won't say/do anything).

I'm learning that my influence should be requested rather than forced; i.e. when somebody asks my opinion concerning something, or I'm in a mentoring relationship with someone--even in those cases, I've got to check myself to make sure that the direction I'm steering them in is one that is most beneficial to them, rather than most (or partly) beneficial to me.

I don't think ENFJs are naturally selfish (at least not more than anybody else); I think ENFJs are naturally oblivious. When we come to terms with the responsibility this power over people brings, then we can either be responsible with it, like I try to be (not that I'm perfect), or selfish as your friends are being.

I also think ENFJs are probably most instinctually driven (and have the least natural control) when it comes to sex. Most of the time, that is our weakest point with our power, and if driven by that drive, we can be extremely manipulative. We are the Don Juans, and Leonardo DiCaprios of the world, where, so long as we're well dressed, we can get just about any girl into bed with us. That's not from personal experience, I was taught early-on how terrible that is, but I can testify that I've come close to this point more than once. One knows when they are in control here. One knows where it leads. It's a dangerous power, especially in immoral hands.

To summarize:
-ENFJs Have the Power to Influence/Manipulate
-Most of the time they are unaware, until maturity kicks in.
-ENFJs are not more selfish then anyone else, but can use this power for themselves as well as others.
-ENFJs are most manipulative when it comes to their sex-drive, so, if you're not a wait-til-marriage kind of a person, at least resist their charm until you can get to know theme better. We have the power to create intimacy rather quickly, the more confident we are in ourselves.

 

[TopherRed]

Yeah, I met an ENFJ that talked really loud to an ENTJ about how he is so "not into manipulating." I don't know. It just seems so weird since he did manipulate people, including me.

*sigh* How so Heinel?

 

[Udog]

I will say this. In the garage where I worked, if I was deeply upset or sad, if the silence inside me took me over, the social part of the garage ground to a halt. I was astonished to see my silence or my intense sadness spread like a wave through the others. It was embarrassing. It only compounded my confusion and my need to flee - which I did 99% of the time to get control of myself, but when I couldn't, the roof came down around our ears. A lot of horrible things were happening to me at that time - I was under tremendous stress, and when I finally warped under the strain, they came down with me, and to this day, I CANNOT understand it. Even my foreman commented on it once. When I arrived in a good mood, the garage was in a good mood. When I arrived distraught or exhausted, the energy levels dropped.

This isn't a comment on you specifically, but I've seen similar situations with people, so I can wager a guess. Based on previous stories, I am assuming you were one of the more dominate personalities in the shop. That's part of it. Regardless of MBTI type, dominate personalities can often dictate the mood of the group.

To add an ENFJ twist to it...

Most likely, when you were in a good mood you did all sorts of little things that helped others get into a good mood themselves. Natural things (not manipulative!) that sort of add up - like joking around, smiling, taking a personal interest in others, being feisty, having fun at your job, etc. Over time, people can psychologically lean on that type of energy injection yet not even realize it. They adapt to you elevating the mood - and unconsciously expect it. They quit bringing their own joy into work with them because they don't need to. So when your mood turned bad, it created a hole, and caused the mood of the shop to appear to match your mood.

Of course, this doesn't even mention those people that genuinely liked you and didn't like to see you in stress. That's part of it too.

Now, none of this is your responsibility or fault. That's important. But I figured I'd provide at least one explanation.