[ENFJ] Hate an ENFJ? Tell us why!

[MetalWounds]

You make a compelling argument, Armstrong! One that I would readily assent to -- outside this thread.

However! Metal seems to be insisting that not only is his logic in full control of his cognition at all times, even when under the duress imposed by an Evil Soul-Snatching ENFJ but also that his emotions play no role in his decision making. His overarching implication is that feelings are inferior in the light of logic and the Fe dominants are to steer away from what is essentially what they are. Fe dominant. If ENFJs became more like him, we'd be "better people".

There lies the fallacy. We'd become logic-tainted Fe dominants who would be more inclined to manipulate because we would be disenfranchised from our locus of power. His intuition about an ENFJ's motivation seems shoddy at best.


Pardon my puzzled shrug at his stack of swiss cheese.

In all fairness, I do not believe that ENFJs should be more like myself, as society requires a balance of dispositions in order not to become dysfunctional. The greatest qualm I have for this type, however, is that they will readily manipulate others without hesitation. They do this, because they believe that they are doing so in a quest to attain a greater good for the subject being controlled or for humanity in general. The ability to make a decision out of one's own free will/accord is one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity, and an undeniable right. When the ENFJ circumvents this, because they believe they are doing so for a "good" reason it tends to strike my personal values/belief system in a manner which I find inexcusable. When I speak out, only to inform the individual who is being "rope a doped" the ENFJ will almost always cast me in an "evil" light, proposing that if I dared to disagree with them, I must be a bad person, not worth listening to.

 

[armstrongvk12]

There lies the fallacy. We'd become logic-tainted Fe dominants who would be more inclined to manipulate because we would be disenfranchised from our locus of power. His intuition about an ENFJ's motivation seems shoddy at best.

It seems like in some way, ENFJs want the focus to be on the other person...in other words....to try to make them feel good, encourage them, etc. Why do you think that is? Is it to take the actual focus off of the ENFJ?

 

[Domino]

In all fairness, I do not believe that ENFJs should be more like myself, as society requires a balance of dispositions in order not to become dysfunctional. The greatest qualm I have for this type, however, is that they will readily manipulate others without hesitation.

You believe more so than any other type? (I'm seriously asking, as I've never executed this abhorrent behavior myself).

They do this, because they believe that they are doing so in a quest to attain a greater good for the subject being controlled or for humanity in general. The ability to make a decision out of one's own free will/accord is one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity, and an undeniable right. When the ENFJ circumvents this, because they believe they are doing so for a "good" reason it tends to strike my personal values/belief system in a manner which I find inexcusable.

That's because it would truly BE inexcusable and contemptible.

When I speak out, only to inform the individual who is being "rope a doped" the ENFJ will almost always cast me in an "evil" light, proposing that if I dared to disagree with them, I must be a bad person, not worth listening to.

This woman - she's your "model" for the type or have you known others? Did they ALL do this? If so, do you live near power lines, a Superfund site, or a former a-test field that causes ENFJ mutants? I've never met another one that was manipulative - though I don't doubt that they can be. (Heart, Substitute and Whatever stand as witnesses to that.)

I've seen them in the grip of their inferior function and it can be ... shocking. Brutal, I can attest to. Scathing, I can attest to. Pushy. Angry. Lambasting. I've seen one pull a "death by a thousand cuts" maneuver that was pretty stunning. Does that count in your mind as a manipulation tactic? I suppose I've lacked the subtlety to pull off such a thing. When I want something/someone, I go for it/them. If I want a certain outcome, I play hard and fast, but not underhanded. If I can't win something or someone over by being myself, resorting to playacting cheapens the victory of gaining a new friend or getting what I worked so hard for. If I'm angry, YOU KNOW. There's no "gee, I wonder if Pink is mad..."

Why tarnish the trophy?

It seems like in some way, ENFJs want the focus to be on the other person...in other words....to try to make them feel good, encourage them, etc. Why do you think that is? Is it to take the actual focus off of the ENFJ?

I have no choice about making people the "center". I couldn't ignore them even if I wanted to, which is why I can be easily brutalized and manipulated myself by those I love and trust. This is why I have so much trouble grasping the idea of grand manipulation (unless I was trying to bring down a real bastard - and that falls under the rules of war, of which no one is immune...) I like to be part of the whole, not the star. That would defeat the purpose of my primary occupation: People watching.

 

[MetalWounds]

You believe more so than any other type? (I'm seriously asking, as I've never executed this abhorrent behavior myself).




That's because it would truly BE inexcusable and contemptible.




This woman - she's your "model" for the type or have you known others? Did they ALL do this? If so, do you live near power lines, a Superfund site, or a former a-test field that causes ENFJ mutants? I've never met another one that was manipulative - though I don't doubt that they can be. (Heart, Substitute and Whatever stand as witnesses to that.)

I've seen them in the grip of their inferior function and it can be ... shocking. Brutal, I can attest to. Scathing, I can attest to. Pushy. Angry. Lambasting. I've seen one pull a "death by a thousand cuts" maneuver that was pretty stunning. Does that count in your mind as a manipulation tactic? I suppose I've lacked the subtlety to pull off such a thing. When I want something/someone, I go for it/them. If I want a certain outcome, I play hard and fast, but not underhanded. If I can't win something or someone over by being myself, resorting to playacting cheapens the victory of gaining a new friend or getting what I worked so hard for. If I'm angry, YOU KNOW. There's no "gee, I wonder if Pink is mad..."

Why tarnish the trophy?

I believe that most ENFJs live their entire life as acceptable, contributing, and "good" people. To answer weather or not I base my opinions on one certain person, I do not. The fault would be my own for being far to general in the implication that I was generalizing the entire type. I am actually rendering a description of ENFJs who are very intelligent, and know that fact. Those more intelligent are the most susceptible to employ their amazingly effective tactics of coercion, that are based on their inner moral beliefs. My experience with this certain individual only prompted me to analyze the type more, and had piqued my curiosity as a type as a whole. I must admit that of the 16 types the ENFJ tends to fascinate me the at the moment, that is until something more interesting comes along. For the time being, however, I wish to understand all that I can about this type. (Hence the reason for my post here in the first place)

 

[armstrongvk12]

I have no choice about making people the "center". I couldn't ignore them even if I wanted to, which is why I can be easily brutalized and manipulated myself by those I love and trust. This is why I have so much trouble grasping the idea of grand manipulation (unless I was trying to bring down a real bastard - and that falls under the rules of war, of which no one is immune...) I like to be part of the whole, not the star. That would defeat the purpose of my primary occupation: People watching.

Ah.....then it seems like the difference between ENFJ and say ENTJ (since we are the two vacillaters)...would be that the F makes people the center...and the T makes the problem/solution/goal the center? Also...for the most part, I am good at ignoring people if need be....which is a LOT of the time when I am teaching. Yes...to the manipulation which is SO hurtful with those you love. I find that I can be part of the whole, but I will be the star as well, if necessary. Especially...if I think that the "star" is incapable. I like to people watch, but find myself people directing more often due to my work.

 

[marm]

Ah.....then it seems like the difference between ENFJ and say ENTJ (since we are the two vacillaters)...would be that the F makes people the center...and the T makes the problem/solution/goal the center? Also...for the most part, I am good at ignoring people if need be....which is a LOT of the time when I am teaching. Yes...to the manipulation which is SO hurtful with those you love. I find that I can be part of the whole, but I will be the star as well, if necessary. Especially...if I think that the "star" is incapable. I like to people watch, but find myself people directing more often due to my work.

My dad is an ENTJ and he is more focused on other people than anyone else I know. Of course, he isn't a people watcher. He does want to understand people, but ultimately he wants to help people. He wants to inspire and influence. He wants to lead and guide. However, he does like people just for the sake of relating to them. He needs people and always has many friends.

I don't know if he is typical.

 

[Tigerlily]

In all fairness, I do not believe that ENFJs should be more like myself, as society requires a balance of dispositions in order not to become dysfunctional.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. The greatest qualm I have for this type, however, is that they will readily manipulate others without hesitation. They do this, because they believe that they are doing so in a quest to attain a greater good for the subject being controlled or for humanity in general. The ability to make a decision out of one's own free will/accord is one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity, and an undeniable right. When the ENFJ circumvents this, because they believe they are doing so for a "good" reason it tends to strike my personal values/belief system in a manner which I find inexcusable. When I speak out, only to inform the individual who is being "rope a doped" the ENFJ will almost always cast me in an "evil" light, proposing that if I dared to disagree with them, I must be a bad person, not worth listening to.

How many ENFJ's have you known? The person you're describing to me sounds like a busy body with nothing better to do. I have a good ENFJ friend who is there if you need her, but doesn't poke around in others business at all! She doesn't gossip, isn't manipulative and definitely not bossy.

Also the more I get into MBTI the more I realize that everyone is different. It's an indicator, but not everyone's the same. My Husband is an INTJ and while you may share similarities with one another, you are different people. I believe that your upbringing comes into play along with MBTI as well as neuroticism and your mental health.

Oh well not trying to argue with you or anything just my opinion.

 

[MetalWounds]

How many ENFJ's have you known? The person you're describing to me sounds like a busy body with nothing better to do. I have a good ENFJ friend who is there if you need her, but doesn't poke around in others business at all! She doesn't gossip, isn't manipulative and definitely not bossy.

Also the more I get into MBTI the more I realize that everyone is different. It's an indicator, but not everyone's the same. My Husband is an INTJ and while you may share similarities with one another, you are different people. I believe that your upbringing comes into play along with MBTI as well as neuroticism and your mental health.

Oh well not trying to argue with you or anything just my opinion.

I have known many people that are ENFJs, most of whom are benign, very good at understanding and supporting people, and some of the best friends that one could ask for . The person I describe had an upbringing that was shaky at best. I do agree that while MBTI types are good at classifying people into a general group, that all share similar characteristics, people are going to be inherently different at a personal level.

 

[Tigerlily]

I have known many people that are ENFJs, most of whom are benign, very good at understanding and supporting people, and some of the best friends that one could ask for . The person I describe had an upbringing that was shaky at best. I do agree that while MBTI types are good at classifying people into a general group, that all share similar characteristics, people are going to be inherently different at a personal level.

Agreed. Thanks for going easy on me.

 

[MetalWounds]

Agreed. Thanks for going easy on me.

Haha It's to early to be mean. But sure, anytime.

 

[Tigerlily]

I hate an ENFJ girl, she's got a TON of phobies wich makes her act very crazy.
And she can't stick to reality for more than a few minutes each time. She overwhelms everybody with maniac plans and ideas, with totally no sense of what is possible, and if you don't agree with her she becomes very, very hostile.
She's the most annoying person I have ever met, in a weird way. Because at the same time she gets into your heart by being cute sometimes. It really sucks.

Sounds like she just needs some Prozac.

 

[Domino]

Ah.....then it seems like the difference between ENFJ and say ENTJ (since we are the two vacillaters)...would be that the F makes people the center...and the T makes the problem/solution/goal the center? Also...for the most part, I am good at ignoring people if need be....which is a LOT of the time when I am teaching. Yes...to the manipulation which is SO hurtful with those you love. I find that I can be part of the whole, but I will be the star as well, if necessary. Especially...if I think that the "star" is incapable. I like to people watch, but find myself people directing more often due to my work.

Nightning explained this once to me -- ENTJs are different motivator, same approach (while an INFJ, to an ENFJ, would be same motivator, different approach).

My best girlfriend, as I mentioned, is an ENTJ in spades. We frequently have what we call "viking berserker" moments, where someone will do something rotten and we'll both have the same reaction - "He needed killin'!" (to rip off Strom Thurmond, Sr. ) But Athena reacts to a violation of the system, while I react to the violation of the individual. We both HATE HATE HATE injustice which is like a ig cosmic stick poking at us, but Athena can usually remain calm about it (while being angry) and I go human torch.

She's very much Queen Elizabeth. I'm more Boudicca. Ahee! (Bad example... )

And you're welcome to hang around as long as you like, Metal. We'll carefully mash you under glass slides and pull at your cilia with pipettes and remark about the marvelous fluorescing that occurs when bombarded with low level x-radiation!

 

[MetalWounds]

lol, maybe. Thanks to my forwardness I'll be forever typed an ENFJ.

Maybe...?

 

[Domino]

Totally! That song they did with Dusty Springfield is great!

(And you are so not spewing ENFJ hate... where's the hate, woman?!)

You know what I hate about ENFJs? We're right. All the time. It's a horrible burden. My weighty massive brain frequently drags the ground.

It's truly a point of suffering.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I'll respond to thread topic, if you don't mind..

I had an ENFJ friend, one of my best friends at the time.. at one point he wanted to recruit me somewhere I wasn't sure of belonging in. He became increasingly unhappy of me.. perhaps he thought we'd be better friends working in the same place, or then perhaps our friendship was based on him "headhunting" a talented young man in his company.

This ENFJ..
-Gave delightful presentations, wonderful speeches, etc. Truly. I just loved that style. It didn't always work quite well, but usually it did!
-most often speedily steered away from logic.
-thought that logic was somehow subservient to what he wants. This is the greatest insult to human intelligence there is. I mean, a man can decide to do what their emotions suggest, rather than to follow their head. But c'mon.. he thought he could single-handedly defeat universal, all-encompassing logic in the whole world for all eternity if he just didn't like the sound of the idea. There was no "agreeing to disagree". There was no mediating. There was no recognizing of multiple options. This mind-numbingly insulting abuse of logic surfaced only now and then, and it was funny enough to ignore for the most part. After he got the clue that he's not recruiting me, this kind of behavior increased.
-sophisticated and knowledgeable about many fields
-multitalented
-absolutely great company, could find an interesting angle from anything, and it didn't mean a bit that he didn't know many things in practice
-system planning view over organization

There are much more graceful ways to handle sucking in one aspect of thinking than what he used. You can suck in some skill, but it takes special to skill to become a sucker. I mean, some people may sing badly, but not everyone goes proudly to Idols preliminaries only to get themselves laughed off from the studio. It takes superior ignorance and boastful, unfounded arrogance to believe being "okay" when they are among the worst examples of horrid performers.

This is what I hate about that ENFJ, tho I don't hate HIM. Other ENFJ, ESFJ probably have similar problem spots.

Point of advice: no matter how good you are in your own game, don't expect to fool an expert in THEIR game, if you're an amateur. It is really baffling to see even an attempt of the kind. Avoid the game. Surrender. Change the rules. Do whatever else you can. But don't, don't, DON'T try to win vastly better players in their own game by cheating. You know, if they're experts, they'll see if you're playing by the rules or not.

Baseball player can tell whether it's ok to play with 3 balls at one time.

Texas Hold'em player knows if there should be joker's in the deck.

What a sad end of friendship with this master manipulator.

 

[theshadow]

There are much more graceful ways to handle sucking in one aspect of thinking than what he used. You can suck in some skill, but it takes special to skill to become a sucker. I mean, some people may sing badly, but not everyone goes proudly to Idols preliminaries only to get themselves laughed off from the studio. It takes superior ignorance and boastful, unfounded arrogance to believe being "okay" when they are among the worst examples of horrid performers.

In a stange way I can see how my behavior could be seen like that. I often enjoy performing just for performing sake. even if I am terrible its fun to get up there and "go down in flames" and then Even if I completely sucked and new it. I would content knowing that what I did was possibly the worst attempt at "whatever" the person had probably seen and if nothing else my ridiculous "false confidence" would let that person feel superior "good". so it serves a double purpose. I enjoy performing. and I enjoy making people laugh.

then perhaps our friendship was based on him "headhunting" a talented young man in his company.

Perhaps it was because He really believed you were the one that should hold that position.

I had an ENFJ friend, one of my best friends at the time.. at one point he wanted to recruit me somewhere I wasn't sure of belonging in. He became increasingly unhappy of me.

ok. here is what I hear. he felt sure you would enjoy doing whatever. and just thought you didnt realize it. so was going to help you discover what you actually liked doing. "not that this is the right way to do things but when I see an entp I usually recognize the unique intelligence and think all they lack is a drive/ purpose. soothing they believed in doing...... I realize this isnt entp's way.. but still. thats how I often feel about them"

There was no "agreeing to disagree". There was no mediating. There was no recognizing of multiple options. This mind-numbingly insulting abuse of logic surfaced only now and then, and it was funny enough to ignore for the most part. After he got the clue that he's not recruiting me, this kind of behavior increased.

this seems really strange to me. I often dont agree with people.. but I rarely think its necessary to let them know. also. basicily when you said no. You automatically raised you "value". this is a normal human response. thats why when you try and break up with someone often they go crazy for you."mind numbing logic? hahhaha Its is a true statement though" actually this lines up with my previous thoughts. He probably was trying to help you. and thought he knew what you needed to think. which seems really strange I know. but still.

Point of advice: no matter how good you are in your own game, don't expect to fool an expert in THEIR game, if you're an amateur. It is really baffling to see even an attempt of the kind. Avoid the game. Surrender. Change the rules. Do whatever else you can. But don't, don't, DON'T try to win vastly better players in their own game by cheating. You know, if they're experts, they'll see if you're playing by the rules or not.

Baseball player can tell whether it's ok to play with 3 balls at one time.

Texas Hold'em player knows if there should be joker's in the deck.

What a sad end of friendship with this master manipulator.

in my experience Nt care a great deal about competency. people will often assume your comptentcy if you act confidently. so to me I get the response I was looking for and dont really care about why. even if it makes me look like a fool. basicly of all parts of my personality I really dont mind dumping on Thinking. so..... also. this could be used manipulativey... such as in cheating so I definatly dont condone that.

 

[armstrongvk12]

We both HATE HATE HATE injustice which is like a ig cosmic stick poking at us, but Athena can usually remain calm about it (while being angry) and I go human torch.
She's very much Queen Elizabeth. I'm more Boudicca. Ahee! (Bad example... )

Okay...so I AM probably more like Athena since Elizabeth (the first, I assume??) is my FAVORITE woman in history, followed closely of course, by Boudicca (I have a pic of her statue near Westminster I'll have to find). I do remain calm while angry, but if you fuck with me....I'll take you out and I rarely go human torch. I guess I'm more of a liberal field marshall...a cross between Margaret Thatcher and Al Gore. For whatever the reason....I seem to be able to raise an army at a moment's notice. God only knows why anyone would follow me ANYwhere, but it seems to happen...and it is not always welcomed.

 

[Kanamori]

My sister's one, and I really hate how she uses patterns of reasoning I agree with in broken ways... ie ways that are totally unrelated to the line of reasoning that I use to justify things... It's like she's a version of me that's somehow even more coldhearted than I am in a very manipulative and cruel way. She ignores everything that is contra to her point, and supports just about anything that could possibly support her point. Sometimes I agree with her, and sometimes I couldn't fathom any way that anyone would believe what she believes w/o wanting to believe it for the sole purpose of trying to hurt someone or win on some stupid point.

 

[armstrongvk12]

My sister's one, and I really hate how she uses patterns of reasoning I agree with in broken ways... ie ways that are totally unrelated to the line of reasoning that I use to justify things... It's like she's a version of me that's somehow even more coldhearted than I am in a very manipulative and cruel way. She ignores everything that is contra to her point, and supports just about anything that could possibly support her point. Sometimes I agree with her, and sometimes I couldn't fathom any way that anyone would believe what she believes w/o wanting to believe it for the sole purpose of trying to hurt someone or win on some stupid point.

Of course I don't know your sister, but I think I can see what you are saying. There were a few posts previously where the ENFJ poster tried to use logic (which there was very little at best), but the feeble logic that was used...had a lot emotionality attached to it. In fact the only reason the poster was commenting was to hurt others.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

I don't hate ENFJs, yet. But I am curious to know more about just how an ENFJ might go about manipulating someone. I can be pretty manipulative myself, but only when backed into a corner. I had learn the mechanics of manipulation, and I'll bet my wege pressure point doll (acupuncture doll) enfj's don't take the time to do it that way.

Can some enlighted with a scenario?