[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Dissecting the INFP Fi-Si Loop

[Udog]

Thats interesting. I have found that the Fi-Si loop continues to bug me despite having looked at it in a new light and made a definite and final judgement about it - I simply go back to before I made that decision and remember the thoughts and feelings before that, and then when I've had my fun reminiscing, remind myself of the decision I made. Which means going through the whole reasoning process all over again to convince myself that my final decision was right.

Does this mean I haven't truly resolved my problem? Or is this a bit different to the Fi-Si loop you had in mind - does yours only apply to feelings that have never been resolved in any way?

I think those aftershocks are par for the course, and come after you've resolved the issue. I know I'll be well over a thing and still have something happen that brings those memories and emotions to the front of my mind. It can be really disorienting, but that's not quite the same thing.

What makes it different? The time and mental energy I spend on it. It's like revisiting an unpleasant area compared to being trapped in it.

 

[Udog]

As promised earlier, here's an example. I had a real hard time sorting this post out, so I hope it makes some modicum of sense.

Despite the shame I feel for falling for the cliche, I did that thing where I developed feelings for a friend. A friend I've known for a long time. After she initially said no though, things between us seemed to gain momentum and chemistry, instead of losing it. Until it sort of peaked, and then... she disappeared. (Yeah, this is a long story made short). Then 3 months later, on Christmas Day, she told me she found someone.

Anyway, it was pretty devastating, and her waiting until Christmas Day to tell me (she had other opportunities) seemed to add insult to injury. And to top it off, I could only grasp at straws as to what happened. I hadn't felt that way in almost 10 years.

So I kept on replaying the events in my head, over and over again, to see if I could gleam new insight. I'd use my imagination to picture how things could have ended differently. Perhaps if I said this instead of that, things would have gone better. Who knows? I was killing myself with 'what ifs'.

How did I break it? I found a couple of really cool, self-aware INFJs that I could talk to. They gave me some wonderful insight to how she (an INFJ) may have viewed things. With their help, I started to understand just how differently she thought compared to me. I realized that she really had no way of reading my mind when it came to certain things, and because of it, didn't really know who I was. Te information gathering provided insight!

I essentially learned that I was rejected because of who I pretended to be. The real me? Perhaps he would have been rejected, too. However, I'll never really know, and I resolved never to make that mistake again.

With that bit of understanding, a few answers, and a lesson I could take away from this, I was finally able to move on. The Fi-Si loop was no longer as tempting as moving forward and learning how to apply the new lessons.

That's when I was able to play with Ne. With this new information, I could use Ne to serve Fi (what lessons can I learn? How can I prevent this from happening again?) instead of using Ne to falsely serve Si.

 

[souffle]

Ah. The example has helped me understand a bit better. Now I'm starting to see the difference.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Yeah, I suspect with some loops the best way to break them is to ignore the natural INFP instinct and seek out advice from people you trust and respect.

 

[Lauren]

Thanks for all of your posts, and to Udog for starting the thread. I'm learning a lot from it. I never thought about the loop, but now I realize I've done this before (and it's kept me occupied for a long time--in one instance for years as I worked closely with someone I was attracted to) I spent so much time reliving the 'what ifs' and 'what's wrong with me' about this confusing mixed signal relationship only to finally break out of it through Ne and Ti (I now realize). There's comfort in that loop, as others have said, but little to no movement. Friends have also helped me break the cycle.

 

[Udog]

Yeah, I suspect with some loops the best way to break them is to ignore the natural INFP instinct and seek out advice from people you trust and respect.

Yeah, I think so as well. It can be hard finding those people, but they can make a world of difference. It's also important that we LISTEN to what they say, and don't automatically discount it because it hurts our feelings.

Thanks for all of your posts, and to Udog for starting the thread. I'm learning a lot from it. I never thought about the loop, but now I realize I've done this before (and it's kept me occupied for a long time--in one instance for years as I worked closely with someone I was attracted to) I spent so much time reliving the 'what ifs' and 'what's wrong with me' about this confusing mixed signal relationship only to finally break out of it through Ne and Ti (I now realize). There's comfort in that loop, as others have said, but little to no movement. Friends have also helped me break the cycle.

That sounds like a real rough situation to be in - I'm glad you were able to break away from it. Thank you for sharing that story.

Yeah, the "no movement" thing is key. Si, for all of it's strengths, doesn't provide alot of movement.

That's another way out of the loop - movement. When I'm in the Fi-Si loop, I become highly routinized. The same environment leads to the same actions, which leads to the same thoughts. Each day is a repeat of the last, with only slight variance.

So break the cycle of activity! Inject new activities and new environments. It's disorienting at first, but those also chip away at the loop, as they feed the extroverted functions and gives your introverted functions new information to process.

One thing I did was to start walking and exercising a few months ago when I was in the midst of a different loop. (This loop I'm not fully over yet - it's the BIG loop of my life, and it's a stubborn SOB. I've been talking alot about it in my blog.) My almost daily one hour walks made a HUGE difference. Not immediately, though. My first few walks consisted largely of my old thoughts, but eventually, I grew bored of it. Something about the fresh air, combined with the fact that I'd be walking for an HOUR, made me get tired and frustrated with revisiting the old thoughts. So I started looking forward instead of backward, and it made a huge difference.

 

[the state i am in]

this thread sounds like an infp greatest hits cd.

i think that blackcat bringing up the tertiary temptation is right on the money. but it's differently experienced and expressed for all types.

isfps who go into Fi Ni mode get fucked up in the head. it's this weird sort of overdrive/overclocking. huge amounts of distortion. SCHISM, etc. basically your inner and outer pressure equilibrium starts oscillating wildly and you go into anaerobic mode (which is terribly inefficient). Ni starts FINDING and SEARCHING for all potential connections, patterns, ideas that will justify the Fi judment and create further fixation. it avoids the physical presence and the assertion of Se and withdraws completely, becomes paranoid and fearful and untrusting, and begins conspiracy theorizing in all forms at all objects/categories of existence (think elliott smith, layne staley).

infps who go into Fi Si can't get out of the past. they're trapped in the past, the world is invisible and they cannot merge and get new information. they are an alien creature inhabiting a future world that never comes (makes me think of he nick drake documentary "a stranger among us"). their values that help them understand how the world as a whole and how themselves as a whole fit together, get fucked up/corrupted and there's no way to bring them together again (so it seems). with Si the judgments of Fi just get rehearsed and practiced and recited over and over again with no ability to unstick them, unsettle them, create a bit more play or potential movement or room to breathe. the ability to change perspectives goes away bc Si combs out all possibilities, instead deciding to focus on the attributes that reinforce the feeling rather than those that show its limitations and incompletenesses. (think jack kerouac).

tertiary trap is a basic schismatic process that is quite horrible. for 5w4 and 4w5, the bottom point of the enneagram, this process is most likely to be an ongoing concern. the 4 and 5 positively reinforce extreme introversion/withdrawal and Fi-Si or Ni-Ti. no one is there to see them completely crumble. the nts have it bad too with Ni-Fi or Ti-Si, but they just turn into arrogant pricks and brats, whereas we are more consistently in-tune with our alienation (infp) or desolation (infj). the nts are more likely to develop strange epilepsies or go all Pi on you and stick a drill thru their temples.

 

[Poki]

I think it's alot harder with personal situations, because then it becomes an issue of recalling Te instead of Fi when I am emotionally invested and in a stressed state. THAT's when it takes energy to drop Fi to do some Ne-Te exploration, at a time when I don't have alot of energy to spare.

I hit this logically and run in circles and its like chasing my tail. It happens for me when trying to understand emotions that I caused in others. Without that input and openness I get trapped in an endless loop trying to figure out what the hell I did wrong to cause that emotion. Where I endlessly loop through what I did and why it would have caused that reaction.

I think this is a Ti-Ni loop in regards to others feelings.

For Fi-Si would you say this is a loop in regards to someone elses logic that doesnt feel right? You go in circles about how certain parts feel and then just get stuck in that loop?

 

[wren]

i'm not sure there is any trap other than our need for fulfillment. there is no fi-si or ti-ni trap or tertiary shadow bullshit. that is pretty much unsubstantial. for me i get hooked on a notion that something is right for me and i spin my wheels trying to determine how to get there, knowing the whole time it's all in my imagination. i have perfect control of where i'm headed in this world of mine and i Choose where i go, not some function that Leads me there. i know full well what is good for me and yet i still persist in ways that are not, that is not a cognitive function in command, it's me.

 

[speculative]

Great post Udog; feels very accurate.

infps who go into Fi Si can't get out of the past. they're trapped in the past, the world is invisible and they cannot merge and get new information. they are an alien creature inhabiting a future world that never comes (makes me think of he nick drake documentary "a stranger among us"). their values that help them understand how the world as a whole and how themselves as a whole fit together, get fucked up/corrupted and there's no way to bring them together again (so it seems). with Si the judgments of Fi just get rehearsed and practiced and recited over and over again with no ability to unstick them, unsettle them, create a bit more play or potential movement or room to breathe. the ability to change perspectives goes away bc Si combs out all possibilities, instead deciding to focus on the attributes that reinforce the feeling rather than those that show its limitations and incompletenesses. (think jack kerouac).

There is a hidden harm in this, I feel, in the connections with people that are lost in the Fi/Si loop. Since the INFP is stuck in the past while any people they have surrounded themselves with have already moved into the future, their thinking/feeling is literally "out of time," like that REM song "Losing My Religion." They will have lost not only understanding, but the ability to understand. Because when someone speaks, the INFP is in 2003 while the speaker is in 2008. The INFP might be hearing the speaker talk about a certain girlfriend from the past, when the speaker is actually talking about their current girlfriend, for example. This is why many type descriptions mention idealists living in the future/past, which is really a method of time travel. (Like in "Lost" where only the mind, and not the physical body, travels through time.) This situation makes symbolic and metaphoric communication difficult, which further isolates the INFP from the real world that could provide a solution to the loop.

Also, the INFP in a Fi/Si loop will really be thrown through a loop while Ne is getting "up to speed." In this role, at first it seems to accelerate the loop, because it searches for possibilities and at this point the INFP is searching for possibilities that reinforce the loop, not break it. I think that some other function has to step in to join with Ne in order to break the loop therefore, but I'm not sure what that function would be. This is just a theory I have, but it seems to be how it works or me as I first attempt to break the Fi/Si loop and my thoughts and feelings expand the loop trying to push beyond it.

I think Portishead's "Magic Doors" artistically describes the Fi/Si loop:

I can't deny what I've become
I'm just emotionally undone
I can't deny I can't be someone else
When I have tried to find the words
To describe this sense absurd
Try to resist my thoughts but I can't lie

I'm losing myself
My desire I can't hide
No reason am I for

I can't divide or hide from me
I don't know who I'm meant to be
I guess it's just the person that I am
Often I've dreamt that I'd awake
Enjoy gift of my mistake
But yet again, I'm wrong and I confess

I'm losing myself
My desire I can't hide
No reason am I for

I'm losing myself
My desire I can't hide
No reason am I for

Their song "The Rip" also touches on a very similar theme.

 

[Poki]

i'm not sure there is any trap other than our need for fulfillment. there is no fi-si or ti-ni trap or tertiary shadow bullshit. that is pretty much unsubstantial. for me i get hooked on a notion that something is right for me and i spin my wheels trying to determine how to get there, knowing the whole time it's all in my imagination. i have perfect control of where i'm headed in this world of mine and i Choose where i go, not some function that Leads me there. i know full well what is good for me and yet i still persist in ways that are not, that is not a cognitive function in command, it's me.

your funny. have you ever tried to figure out why you want to get where your going?

I choose what I do, not where I go. The mysterious and great J/P divide.

 

[Udog]

infps who go into Fi Si can't get out of the past. they're trapped in the past, the world is invisible and they cannot merge and get new information. they are an alien creature inhabiting a future world that never comes (makes me think of he nick drake documentary "a stranger among us"). their values that help them understand how the world as a whole and how themselves as a whole fit together, get fucked up/corrupted and there's no way to bring them together again (so it seems). with Si the judgments of Fi just get rehearsed and practiced and recited over and over again with no ability to unstick them, unsettle them, create a bit more play or potential movement or room to breathe. the ability to change perspectives goes away bc Si combs out all possibilities, instead deciding to focus on the attributes that reinforce the feeling rather than those that show its limitations and incompletenesses. (think jack kerouac).

Great post. I agree strongly with your description. I agree that while Fi is busy trying to come up with an answer, Si is busy eliminating potential answers that may allow us to break from the loop. Interesting!

Also, your ISFP description rings true with my observations.

For Fi-Si would you say this is a loop in regards to someone elses logic that doesnt feel right? You go in circles about how certain parts feel and then just get stuck in that loop?

I don't think it's logic as much as motives. Questions like, "Why did they do that?" or "How could they do that?" Unable to come up with an answer, my thoughts hit the next most comfortable alternative, which is to relive the situation in my head. Which in turn, makes me ask, "How could they do that?".

i'm not sure there is any trap other than our need for fulfillment. there is no fi-si or ti-ni trap or tertiary shadow bullshit. that is pretty much unsubstantial. for me i get hooked on a notion that something is right for me and i spin my wheels trying to determine how to get there, knowing the whole time it's all in my imagination. i have perfect control of where i'm headed in this world of mine and i Choose where i go, not some function that Leads me there. i know full well what is good for me and yet i still persist in ways that are not, that is not a cognitive function in command, it's me.

I'm trying to use the functions to solidify something that, in actuality, is far more fluid. I sort of assume that everyone that made it this far understands that functions try to describe thought processes, and that they don't control them.

Also, the INFP in a Fi/Si loop will really be thrown through a loop while Ne is getting "up to speed." In this role, at first it seems to accelerate the loop, because it searches for possibilities and at this point the INFP is searching for possibilities that reinforce the loop, not break it. I think that some other function has to step in to join with Ne in order to break the loop therefore, but I'm not sure what that function would be. This is just a theory I have, but it seems to be how it works or me as I first attempt to break the Fi/Si loop and my thoughts and feelings expand the loop trying to push beyond it.

One thing to keep an eye out for is that Ne serves Fi, not Si. Ne that tries to verify Si doesn't help, as everything it generates is full of self-confirming bias to the past. Which leads to ideas that grow stale.

The true step forward is to ensure Ne looks to the future, and not the past.

 

[Udog]

*casts Resurrection spell*

I found an interesting way to break the loop: Short circuit it with affirmations.

Advantages:
Easy to do.
Seems to work.

Disadvantages:
Cheesy as all-get-out.
Not as satisfying as Deus-Ex-Ne.
Requires some brute force.

The idea is simple enough, though. You just repeat a thought that counters the loop. Generally, elements of the loop ARE affirmations. Sad event X damaged my ability to be at peace with who I am. or I don't understand what is going on!

This idea uses the fact that the mind can only really focus on 1 thought at a time - especially the subconscious mind. Sometimes simply replacing one of the negative repetitious statements with a more positive (or constructive) one, and forcing yourself to repeat it, will cause the loop to lose momentum.

I doubt all loops can be fixed this way, but I've had some success with this. I figured I would share just in case someone else may find value in it...

 

[Fidelia]

I like that. As I've been thinking about things, it's occurred to me that it is not removing something negative (whether a thought, habit, feeling, influence, bad friend etc), but rather crowding it out and replacing it with something better that breaks the power of it.

 

[angell_m]

So, I'm appearantly an INFP, but my Ni and Si is highest. Appearantly my cognitive tests shows that I'm an INFJ > ISFJ, not an INFP. I'm always on a loop, the one you've mentioned. But my Fi is rock bottom next to Se; having zero effect.

 

[Rebe]

So, I'm appearantly an INFP, but my Ni and Si is highest. Appearantly my cognitive tests shows that I'm an INFJ > ISFJ, not an INFP. I'm always on a loop, the one you've mentioned. But my Fi is rock bottom next to Se; having zero effect.

I can see you as INFJ over ISFJ, yup.

I also have high Ni and I thought I was INFJ at one point. I have very high Fi, Ne and Ni but as result, my Si, Te and Se sucks. Yes, I am actually currently stuck in Fi-Si loop. My plan to get myself out of this mindset is actually to physically remove myself and do something new and daring and practice my Te, Ne, Se and Fi. It's sort of a crazy plan but I feel that I need to yank myself out, otherwise I can't move forward. Does that make sense? I need drastic action.

 

[angell_m]

Me, the "INFP".

introverted Intuiting (Ni) ******************************************* (43.3) excellent use
introverted Sensing (Si) **************************************** (40.9) excellent use
introverted Thinking (Ti) ********************************** (34.6) good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ******************************* (31.4) good use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ****************************** (30.2) good use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ************************** (26.4) average use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ************************ (24) limited use
extraverted Sensing (Se) ********* (9.6) unused

 

[Udog]

I have another thought on breaking the loop.

I don't know about other INFPs, but all of my loops can be summed up with a single word that both sums up the essence of the loop as well as acts as a trigger. Something like tired or misery.

When the trigger word pops into my mind, if I replace it with a new word that counters the trigger, it creates a sort of cognitive dissoncance that stops the loop in its tracks. Tired...resting or misery.... mission.

Sometimes it even triggers a healthy Fi-Si loop. Instead of focusing on how tired I am, I begin planning ways to get more rest.

 

[Fidelia]

Thanks so much for posting this stuff as you think of it. It has sparked a lot of thought of my own about getting out of my loops as well as how to best help friends who are stuck in theirs.

 

[Udog]

Nolla talked a bit on how the INFP Fi-Si loop can be a healthy thing.

When I find that one of my most basic, fundamental assumptions about something are wrong, it's the Fi-Si loop that comes in and begins laying the new, healthier ground work. (Like the stuff I shared in my blog recently.) The brain creates and strengthens neural pathways through repetition of thought and action.

The Fi-Si loop is the very mechanism that allows me to be my values, if you will. It is because I am able to contemplate a topic through so thoroughly and reptitiously that something like a personal value can affect every aspect of who I am.

The Fi-Si loop is quite possibly the foundation for one of the INFP's most important strengths. Learning how to wield it is critical, because it's not about stopping the Fi-Si loop, but choosing what loops are worth allowing myself to process.