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[INFJ] INFJ Rage?

SS17

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SS17, what part confuses you?

It makes sense now! Yay.

You are close in that first paragraph. The INFJ doesn't just forget about the other incidents. They are frustrated at the time, but don't want to be hasty and overreact. They are trying to explain when they finally do explode that they have done everything they can to deal with this problem on their own and that the other person has overloaded them with enough things this is no longer possible. It is not just about one seemingly tiny incident. They hate being seen as oversensitive or wimpy. They are usually able to handle quite a lot and they also don't prefer to become emotional and cry in front of other people. This is usually the point at which some well-meaning T explains that they are being oversensitive and making a big deal out of something that isn't. (Which adds gasoline to the fire, even while they are frantically shovelling dirt and beating wet towels over it internally in efforts to quell it as soon as possible). The incident they snap about is just the straw that broke the camel's back. They actually hate this feeling and are doing their best to bleed off enough emotion that they can once again be as objective as possible and return to a calm way of dealing with things. Because of not wanting to be seen as difficult or wimpy, often INFJs don't completely finish expressing all of what has been rankling, which is why the topic gets revisited several days after you thought you got it all worked out with them.
The description of the shy laugh later in your quote is her trying desperately to get back to normal, but then thinking about the things that are still not fixed that are bothering her. She's doing her best not to be that way and the silence certainly isn't for dramatic effect.

Okay, that totally explains everything. Now I understand that she's actually doing a lot of this to not seem overemotional, and that it's not about the last thing that made her angry--it's about previous mistakes as well. It doesn't seem confusing at all now. Wow, your description of the INFJ trying so hard to make things better again has really made me respect and appreciate INFJs even more. Thanks!
 

Fidelia

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Excellent! Now go out into the world and explain that to all of the ESTJs you know, please!
 

Billy

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The bad thing is that once the can of worms is opened, you may be talking about it for weeks. Because if the INFJ says everything, ev er y thing, usually it comes as a revelation to the other person, and they end up taking a couple of days to process all that themselves, bits and pieces of it will keep coming back to them, etc., and they'll want to talk it out. It's not always petty stuff, you know? Sometimes I don't say anything because I know that if I do, it will upset the other person profoundly, like shake their foundations. Ditto for slamming or throwing things. Better if I do that than say what I'm thinking, sometimes. Better for the other person.

Ha ha ha oh man you are so right when you say EVERYTHING...

My brother pushed me over the line a month or so ago. He has always been an emotional manipulator, especially in regards to me. He recently had twins and he became EVEN MORE self centered then ever before...even this I can deal with. What pissed me off was when he called me up while I was laying some drywall for a friend... wait let me rephrase

I was doing a drywall job for my friend Danny who is my brothers boyfriend (I have 2 brothers, this is the other one). Anyway since our youngest brother had his twins Danny has been there every night with them to help them get established. Danny had another responsibility, to help do some carpentry work for another friend, Danny was unable to do this because he was busy helping my brother with my nieces. So I went in his place to do it for him. I figured it was a good way for me to help out, I help him, he helps my brother, we are all happy.

Anyway, there I am with a sheet on my head going up, brother calls me. I answer it "Whats up?" Admittedly Whats up is not proper phone answering etiquette, but damnit I was literally holding a sheet up and trying to get it screwed in. He blows up and tells me

"What the fuck did I tell you about answering the phone without any respect for me?"

I told him to grow up that I am busy right now, and what do you need?

(He only calls me when he needs something)

He tells me to fuck myself, and dont come around any more.

IE He is using my nieces as leverage against me, do as I say or you dont get to see him.

I snapped. I told him to keep his fucking daughters and that he is a self righteous, manipulative, ignorant, arrogant little shit and I was done protecting him from himself and his mistakes.

He then set out to recruit my family against me, instead of playing his game I wrote a 10 page letter explaining everything including many other things about my brothers and my parents and my sisters that just cleared the air.

And when I say 10 pages, I mean I gave him both barrels with 1 trigger squeeze. My mother had told me a week later that his wife said he spent the night crying and asking "why does my brother hate me?"

That question infuriated me more, because he truly doesnt understand what a horrible person he usually is and is capable of being.

I havent spoken to him since the 1st week of October.

He tried to have my mother ask me to come to his house for Thanksgiving, but I told her of course, no fucking way. I will never go over his home again. And that if he wants to have a relationship with me he is going to have to do it on my terms because I am the only one between the two of us who is mature enough not to abuse that.

I really REALLY miss my nieces and my sister in law, but I have no choice but to stick to my guns otherwise he will see it as a victory for himself. And while I do not view things in terms of victory, he does... which is what I am dealing with. I want to have a good relationship with him, but he just wont allow me too. And to be honest if he wasnt my brother he isnt the type of person I would want to be friends with.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Oh, yes. The "List", as I call it. :blush: It's not a conscious score-keeping, though. These are just small instances that stay at the back of the mind and in time things just accumulate to the point where it boils over. I can let go of so many things but I guess the residue remains to some extent. And it's not like rubbing in someone's past mistakes to hurt them. It's more about clearing the air, but it happens to be all at once, so it will come as a surprise to people, that's for sure.

I hate the list. Quite often, I’m not even aware it’s there- slowly building up like a Jenga tower- until it gets so difficult to manage that it falls over and THAT’S when I notice it. I have one friend irl who’s the same way; we call it emotional frog-in-hot-water syndrome.

In most cases, I can solve the problem in my head by looking at things from the other person's point of view, considering surrounding circumstances and reasons for certain behaviour etc. […] I think it comes from sucking things up, trying to see the situation from other sides, making huge efforts to avoid overreacting and then the dam finally bursting.

I do this as well. It *seems* at the time that I’m able to let a lot of stuff go. But, like fidelia wrote, if it’s an ongoing problem and the other person doesn’t recognize/appreciate the amount of effort/reflection I consistently put forth to let go of things then a slimy residue starts to build around my attitude towards the person. I do not notice the residue until it’s stifling. I am a total sensotard.

The INFJ doesn't just forget about the other incidents. They are frustrated at the time, but don't want to be hasty and overreact. They are trying to explain when they finally do explode that they have done everything they can to deal with this problem on their own and that the other person has overloaded them with enough things this is no longer possible. It is not just about one seemingly tiny incident. They hate being seen as oversensitive or wimpy. They are usually able to handle quite a lot and they also don't prefer to become emotional and cry in front of other people. This is usually the point at which some well-meaning T explains that they are being oversensitive and making a big deal out of something that isn't. (Which adds gasoline to the fire, even while they are frantically shovelling dirt and beating wet towels over it internally in efforts to quell it as soon as possible). The incident they snap about is just the straw that broke the camel's back. They actually hate this feeling and are doing their best to bleed off enough emotion that they can once again be as objective as possible and return to a calm way of dealing with things.

Again, I strongly relate to this, ESPECIALLY the bolded statements. I loathe that moment when the Jenga towers spills and I start spewing everything on the list. I can’t wait for it to be over.

Excellent! Now go out into the world and explain that to all of the ESTJs you know, please!

Seriously. If someone would be so kind as to bring this up at their next ‘big meeting’, that would be great.

We’re all individuals, no one fits perfectly into any MB type box, BUT: I have had the worst experiences with ESTJs inadvertently ‘throwing gasoline on the fire’.

Because:

The bad thing is that once the can of worms is opened, you may be talking about it for weeks. [...] ...they end up taking a couple of days to process all that themselves, bits and pieces of it will keep coming back to them, etc., and they'll want to talk it out. It's not always petty stuff, you know? Sometimes I don't say anything because I know that if I do, it will upset the other person profoundly, like shake their foundations. Ditto for slamming or throwing things. Better if I do that than say what I'm thinking, sometimes. Better for the other person.

If I’m not allowed to revisit that mangled Jenga wreckage- because the other person will get upset, annoyed or angry- then I’ll never be able to effectively get rid of ‘the list’.

If the person isn't really important to me, it's not a big deal to just write that person off; list gone, problem solved. But when the person IS important: I do the best I can to keep the anger and resentment out of the other person's way (I think most INFJs do). If I am made to feel bad about revisiting, that guilt trip’s only going to end up on ‘the list’.
 
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Fidelia

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You understand! When they are someone you don't want to expunge from your life, yet they refuse to help shovel away the tumbled wreckage of the list, eventually there is a garbage heap so high you can no longer see each other.
 

Z Buck McFate

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^ I HATE giving up on people who are important to me. I can go for a long time, probably far too long, on memories of how good a person has been to me; but once the list has reached it's critical limit, something inside of me just closes the door. It isn't even a conscious decision, it sort of happens on its own.

And even then, after I close that door, sometimes it takes years for me to understand what I was angry about (only when the person was important).

In line with something fidelia said- and I can't stress this enough- it's important to give us credit for not wanting to fly into little snits of rage in the first place. We know if affects others badly, and we probably anticipate it going away even more than the people who have to deal with us.
 

the state i am in

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we get angry, also, bc our judgment skills are often very shitty and we need a last line of defense against both the world and from ourselves.

it takes us a lot of time to come to decisions about anything important. we may feel extremely entitled (4s, 5s), yet, at the same time, become extremely aware of the needs of others and lose ourselves in the process. which muddies our sense of right. and makes us hyper-aware that we want to take something that doesn't belong to us or make our assert our wills even if it is not in the best interest of others. this is a basic Fe conflict, and causes over-expression and over-compensation at times when we just get so fucking tired of not-knowing what is right or wrong but being upset, regardless, when we feel our needs are not being met or addressed.

and the whole PiJe thing makes us very specific in thinking we know what is best, unless we have to find a way to understand ourselves objectively. generally i have to think of myself as an externality, imagine myself in the place of someone else seeing myself in order to get at the context better so that i can see what actually means what in a more accurate way. bc i can not just work it out interiorily, bc i have no way of balancing what i feel i need, what i SHOULD need, what makes more sense to need, vs what others need, what the world suggests is accurate, what is consistent with what life is made up of, etc.

also, chart-the-course. and we hate being disturbed, disrupted, our privacy violated, our feathers ruffled, etc. especially the 4s and the 5s.
 

cascadeco

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EnFpFer's MIL doesn't sound typical (or at least sounds immature).

In most cases, I can solve the problem in my head by looking at things from the other person's point of view, considering surrounding circumstances and reasons for certain behaviour etc. When it has been ongoing though and the other person isn't recognizing that I've already cut them a lot of slack....

Relate very much to the bolded piece.

But to the OP, I think this is where I'm a bizarre INFJ. I can't even relate to the OP in terms of yelling or dredging up things in the past....I've never yelled in my life...seriously. I don't think it's possible for me to get that angry. Yes, I get annoyed and maybe sarcastic/biting in some of my comments, if I'm really irritated about something, but maybe I've never allowed things to get to the point within me where it reaches the anger/rage stage? I just don't relate to that. I think I nip all of it in the bud before it escalates, and communicate things that might be bugging me before they accumulate to the extent that I'd have to explode.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Relate very much to the bolded piece.
I do that as well as fidelia described. I work it out in my head by exploring it from various angles, and typically find some sort of resolution.

But to the OP, I think this is where I'm a bizarre INFJ. I can't even relate to the OP in terms of yelling or dredging up things in the past....I've never yelled in my life...seriously. I don't think it's possible for me to get that angry. Yes, I get annoyed and maybe sarcastic/biting in some of my comments, if I'm really irritated about something, but maybe I've never allowed things to get to the point within me where it reaches the anger/rage stage? I just don't relate to that. I think I nip all of it in the bud before it escalates, and communicate things that might be bugging me before they accumulate to the extent that I'd have to explode.
I relate to what you have written here. The closest I've come to "rage" in my memory was a feeling of frustration that I released by breaking down kindling with the occasional growly sound. I have never yelled at someone in my recollection.

Sometimes I wonder about anger and my relationship to it, because I tend to analyze and reason through things which limits the need for it. It's not that I never feel frustrated or disappointed, but rage? I'm not sure I have felt that. I asked my SO about my anger last night, and he said he didn't notice me feeling it that much, so I asked about passive aggression, and he said, "not at all". If there was any, I'm not conscious of it. There are a couple of emotions that can entrap me in a negative feedback loop, but anger isn't one of those.

I do remember "incidences" that hurt my feelings and such, but these do not always build towards a climax of anger. They are used like any piece of information. Sometimes they build towards a negative picture, and then suddenly new information arrives which reinterprets all that has happened in a new light. I then see better what the person meant, how they were viewing it, and the anger will dissipate. My memory isn't a tally for increasing anger and punishment, but more often filed under "what the hell happened?". My point is that the process is not linear, but holistic.

From my understanding, anger is a response to feeling one's rights have been violated. The greater a personal sense of entitlement over what one cannot control, the greater one's sense of anger in response to disappointment. When one let's go of this sense of entitlement, then the motivation for anger lessens.
 

Z Buck McFate

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From my understanding, anger is a response to feeling one's rights have been violated. The greater a personal sense of entitlement over what one cannot control, the greater one's sense of anger in response to disappointment. When one let's go of this sense of entitlement, then the motivation for anger lessens.

Is a personal sense of entitlement always an unhealthy thing? Shouldn’t children feel a personal sense of entitlement- in regards to feeling loved by a parent- even though, technically, it isn’t something they have control over? Or even: after several years of marriage, shouldn’t someone feel entitled to some degree of honesty and loyalty from an SO (which isn’t really in one’s control, either)?

I think I can see where you were headed- that it’s always important to be mindful of the things we individually feel entitled to, right? I just want to point out that- where other people and respectful, responsible behavior is concerned- there are things that we should be able to feel reasonably entitled to in life. IMO, anyway. It’s an incredibly miserable and depressing notion to think we aren’t entitled, at least, to a modicum of respect and honesty from those who have promised it to us.
 

MonkeyGrass

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I explode less often now than I used to (and then, it was just once in a blue moon), and it's usually when my sense of justice has been very violated by someone I thought I could trust not to do whatever they did.

The List....yes. :blush: It's not really because I have an ongoing tally, it's just that as my brain is trying desperately to make sense of how someone could act the way they did, the connection making part of my brains explodes in an intricate spiderweb of instances that support whatever theory ends up making the most sense. It's insane, the amount of emotional info that bubbles to the surface from the past and gets connected and categorized during the short couple of hours that I'm angry. It leaves me exhausted. I tend to sound like a conspiracy theorist while I'm babbling on like an enraged seer, probing motives that I usually have the decency to leave alone, making predictions about the future, hurling accusations that have a good bit of truth and a great lot of fear. It's mostly because my emotions have been thrown off-kilter and my J demands an explaination, and I don't have enough time to cull out the more outrageous conclusions like I normally do.



It's like an explosion of slightly off-balanced intuition. My spouse (the one who usually catches most of my anger, just because he's one of the few I trust to that level) has learned to don a fire-proof jacket and take notes. Even though a lot of it is angry/fearful babble, there's usually a good deal of useful insight mixed in as well.


I've gotten better at apologizing over the years. :blush:
 

Fidelia

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Strangely enough, until I moved to the north, I never had had occasion to experience huge amounts of frustration in my life. There I found many legitimate reasons to be consistently at the end of my emotional string, even though I am normally very even-keeled.

My boyfriend was an integral part of the success of our fiddle trips (only suitable and available male chaperone in the whole school for several years), yet we did not see eye to eye on many issues to do with children. He wanted to be needed and was very good at what he did, yet often made me feel beholden for his help or else usurped my position. He also liked to be in control, even when it was more appropriate for me to be (my program, most appropriate for me to interface with other instructors etc). We were very different types but also he was not used to needing to resolve things. We relied on each other for so many things and so these communication issued bled into professional, social and practical life.

Aside from that though, the community we were in was very culturally different and was dysfunctional in many ways (lots of drug and alcohol abuse and the spin off effects of that). Our school did not have subs or EAs that were educated (often barely scraped through high school, if that) and there was a lot of outright aggressive or passive aggressive behaviour. Children were often not well fed or rested and had not been taught routines and appropriate communication skills, so I was very much in the position of parenting, but without the influence that a parent wields.

Our administration changed frequently and was usually chosen on the basis of who remained in the north, rather than skill sets and suitability. Teachers often would not send their children to my class (or gave the kids a choice about whether to go) because they did not see it as an important subject. The school division was also poorly run at all levels of management and so it was very difficult to work efficiently.

All community events ran late and because most involved alcohol (which made for a very volatile environment) we only had limited social life outside the teachers we had been with all day. Many were unhappy to be there (had to come to pay off student loans or because they couldn't get work closer to home) or else were odd ducks hiding out from life, so there was also a lot of alcohol, negativity and isolation. The nearest community to shop in was three hours away and was a difficult journey over bad roads, ending in Walmart, and Boston Pizza as the main draws. The next community to go to was about 8 hours away.

None of this is to say that I am not very glad that I spent so long there. I wouldn't have traded it for the world. However, I never felt overwhelming anger (like fantasizing about slowing choking bad children and watching the blood drain from their faces!!!!) like that in my life. It truly scared me at first, until I learned how to better deal with it.

These are the circumstances under which that kind of INFJ anger and frustration comes out. It is being pushed to the limit all the time by a circumstance or relationship that you can't change and yet do not want to leave.
 

Eileen

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I get very quiet and then it ends up coming out all snappy and irritable. I wish I had a different mode for anger, but I need time to process, and if I don't get it out in the neutral time after processing, it'll definitely show up later on down the line. And once things are over--that is, once I've processed something that made me upset and the moment has passed, I can be kind of loath to bring it up again... so it's common that I never do get to "get it out" in the neutral time. So when it comes back up, I end up being snippy and probably crying while trying to get it out civilly.

When I was younger, I was way more explosive, though. I like to think I've grown.
 

Immaculate Cloud

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One case of righteous anger a few years back. To defend someone else who was being verbally put down by some lady. It cost me dearly. But I have never had regrets defending the victim.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Is a personal sense of entitlement always an unhealthy thing? Shouldn’t children feel a personal sense of entitlement- in regards to feeling loved by a parent- even though, technically, it isn’t something they have control over? Or even: after several years of marriage, shouldn’t someone feel entitled to some degree of honesty and loyalty from an SO (which isn’t really in one’s control, either)?

I think I can see where you were headed- that it’s always important to be mindful of the things we individually feel entitled to, right? I just want to point out that- where other people and respectful, responsible behavior is concerned- there are things that we should be able to feel reasonably entitled to in life. IMO, anyway. It’s an incredibly miserable and depressing notion to think we aren’t entitled, at least, to a modicum of respect and honesty from those who have promised it to us.
My main point was to show the direct relationship between anger and entitlement. If a person values entitlement, then anger serves a function. I have not fully come to terms with every aspect of this issue, but have found some peace in the first steps I have taken.

As far as relationships are concerned, a person can feel entitled to a lover responding to them in a certain way, and if they don't the reaction is anger. If you take time to understand why the lover didn't respond to you, and realize that it doesn't effect your own worth, then their reaction is what it is. Understanding replaces expectation and disappointment. The same is true for me professionally. I have diplomas that state "I am entitled to all the rights and privileges associated with this degree." After receiving my doctorate I have personally never made it over the poverty line in terms of income until this year (10 years out). At the same time I have had peers and professors with full-time jobs indulge in competition and work to undermine me even though I posed no realistic threat. They competed for status, while I was working to have the opportunity to have money for food. Their behavior also revealed a lack of comprehension for the reality of my situation. I felt some anger initially, but spent a lot of time by a lake or in a forest thinking and reflecting. I realized that life is going to be as it is, and my internal construct of what it owes me will not change its nature, but will only change my own nature. The latter is the one thing that is mine and to which I am entitled. I will not let anger and false expectation take that away. If I let go of that constructed future in my mind, then I can take whatever is offered me, whatever I can seek out realistically, and appreciate the fullness of it.
 

Z Buck McFate

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My main point was to show the direct relationship between anger and entitlement.

Yeah, I actually agree with you. It’s a really good point. For whatever reason, an extreme end of it popped into my head and that’s what I replied to; that pesky Ni curse of seeing something ‘extra’ in someone else’s comment.

Their behavior also revealed a lack of comprehension for the reality of my situation. I felt some anger initially, but spent a lot of time by a lake or in a forest thinking and reflecting. I realized that life is going to be as it is, and my internal construct of what it owes me will not change its nature, but will only change my own nature. The latter is the one thing that is mine and to which I am entitled. I will not let anger and false expectation take that away. If I let go of that constructed future in my mind, then I can take whatever is offered me, whatever I can seek out realistically, and appreciate the fullness of it.

I think a lot of why it’s so difficult for some INFJs to get angry is that there’s something exactly like this ^ floating around in the back of our minds, and being angry goes against good sense. I know, at least, it’s true for me. I’m so accustomed to being able to see the misunderstanding behind the anger of the people around me, or see how pointless and/or counterproductive anger can be; when I’m feeling anger and can’t reason it away, I get unreasonably frustrated with myself. And I get embarrassed for being angry, which a lot of people (directly around me) don’t understand. A lot of that little snit of rage I’m feeling is at actually at me for not being able to reason it away.

I really liked what you said, though, and agree that it’s really important to take feelings of entitlement into account.
 

Lexicon

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I hardly ever even feel anger to begin with, let alone express it in any overt way...
Perhaps this is due to my growing up around people who had little to no tolerance for stress, and exploded often. Adult temper tantrums. It never got them anywhere, and the behavior really just disgusts me these days. People who don't know how to pause and think about why they feel the way they do are slaves to their emotions, and hurt themselves and others in the longterm and solve nothing.
When something's bothering me, I ask questions before I allow myself to react to the initial emotional response. I ask myself questions, and I calmly ask the people involved questions.
I never yell. I don't get passive agressive. I ask my questions and address the problem as directly as possible. If the other party doesn't seem receptive to healthy communication, then I just step away from that situation and try to think of another way to approach it. I see no point in allowing anything to escalate. And no point in getting pissed. Such a waste of energy and precious time.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Hello people, I just want to tell you all that I have an INFJ cat. It is generally very quiet and neat, but it rages a lot. It seems unique and creative in the regard of how it runs after mice. It must be an INFJ, as those profiles say, INFJs are exceptionally unique, creative and quiet. Hence, since my cat rages a lot, I will have to say that rage is predominantly an INFJ thing and all INFJs therefore rage a great deal.

I will be sure to write another long essay on INFJ rage. Oh by the way, there is this annoying fly that keeps on buzzing around my room. It seems like it just can't settle down! It is very active and has a short attention span, and cunning as it manipulates me into doing everything besides killing it. Hey, it must be an ESTP, as it is manipulative (remember, the Love Types have the Wheeler-dealer persona for the ESTP), very active and has a short attention span! INFJs, stay away from flies, they are the opposite of your type! Especially INFJs who like to rage a great deal, oh wait, all of you like to rage a great deal because my INFJ cat does! That fly's got to make you furious because its an ESTP and no no! Opposites do not attract, we all hate our shadow. Anyhow, INFJs, stay away from flies! End of lecture.
 

Fidelia

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Yes, Solitary, we understand that you feel these threads have gotten ridiculous. I can agree with you on some of them. On the other hand, in this particular thread, I think it is helpful for the people dealing with INFJs that they don't understand to have a chance to ask some questions (just as I've found the Ask An ESTJ thread invaluable). There are enough people who have expressed similar experiences that while it may not describe every INFJ ever, it is a common enough thought pattern that it is of some value to those who don't instantly recognize and understand it. I think the more appropriate place for your response is in a place like, "INFJs, do you love cats?".
 

Eileen

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2,179
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6?
Hello people, I just want to tell you all that I have an INFJ cat. It is generally very quiet and neat, but it rages a lot. It seems unique and creative in the regard of how it runs after mice. It must be an INFJ, as those profiles say, INFJs are exceptionally unique, creative and quiet. Hence, since my cat rages a lot, I will have to say that rage is predominantly an INFJ thing and all INFJs therefore rage a great deal.

I will be sure to write another long essay on INFJ rage. Oh by the way, there is this annoying fly that keeps on buzzing around my room. It seems like it just can't settle down! It is very active and has a short attention span, and cunning as it manipulates me into doing everything besides killing it. Hey, it must be an ESTP, as it is manipulative (remember, the Love Types have the Wheeler-dealer persona for the ESTP), very active and has a short attention span! INFJs, stay away from flies, they are the opposite of your type! Especially INFJs who like to rage a great deal, oh wait, all of you like to rage a great deal because my INFJ cat does! That fly's got to make you furious because its an ESTP and no no! Opposites do not attract, we all hate our shadow. Anyhow, INFJs, stay away from flies! End of lecture.

It is a shame that you're not getting from this internet forum what you need. Alas, a lack.

My ESFP cat would love to snuggle you so that you could feel better about how vapid the people on the internet are.
 
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