[NF] Forgive me (loving ideals instead of people) - For all types

[KLessard]

I was in a romantic relationship once with an NF who idealised me. No one had ever done that to me before and it felt delicious at the time but I'm sorry, I disagree that it was a “great honour”. His idealisation of me was completely selfish. My alarm bells were ringing from the beginning but I ignored them because the emotions in the present moment felt so good. He wanted to marry me straight away but thank goodness I didn't let him sweep me up that far. I think part of the problem may have been I did not idealise him and called him on inappropriate behaviour and he couldn't handle the responsibility of treating me with proper respect, I think because it made him feel too bad about himself – all of which was exaggerated to high drama in his mind. He broke up with me after playing havoc with my emotions. He even had the nerve to discuss his whole “does the perfect partner exist? Maybe not, etc.” with me. He used me and wasted my time and energy as well as hurting me a lot because I let him hook my emotions. It was no honour.

I understand that you just want to explain the NF point of view and point out a certain fault in it but please do not tell yourself and other NFs and the people who've been idealised by NFs that it isn't so bad because the NF saw something wonderful in you. That is the opposite of love, that is self-contained self-gratification. The idealised person is turned into an object to be consumed. And the good I have in me, I let him have but he didn't deserve it.

I'm not saying you are as extreme as the NF I was in a relationship with. But it can go that far if the NF is very unhealthy and as a general warning to everyone, I want to say that it's something to be very wary of if you feel it might be happening to you.

I'm sorry about what happened there. I also think it was awful of that NF to have the "there's no perfect partner" talk with you.

In my case, the idealisation is never romantic, the role models are generally artistic collaborators or friends, and I sure hope I have never hurt any of them in that way. I am aware that I might have puzzled some of them in the process, though. Then again, forgive me. I want to change.
By the way, I see romantic relationships as such a high responsibility, and something too serious and close to the floor to deal with it in idealistic terms.

 

[Arclight]

Hey, type is just one thing in a million....The human psyche is so complex that we couldn't hope to encapsulate it in a single methodology or analytical framework.

By the way, I can relate very much to loving ideals more than people.

Yeah.. you are wise about that then.. this does not define me.. it only sheds some light ...

I see people become their types.. instead of seeing how their type is just a Guideline to how understand themselves..not a user manual on how to behave

 

[nolla]

I am always surprised to see how atheists view christians' repentance and readiness to see their own sin as a "dark thread." (Or perhaps this is not what you see as dark...? What do you mean by very dark?)
Repentance and change are beautiful and very luminous things in my perspective. This thread is full of light and hope for me.

Hard to describe exactly, but the thread has very gloomy feeling right from the beginning. It's something that I don't remember countering many times before. Different than the normal depressed posts. Most of the opening post makes me feel sorry for you, not knowing exactly why. It certainly doesn't come through as luminous.

It may be only because of the choice of words. The religious language might have that effect on me. Maybe if we were talking about feeling guilty, not repentance, and weakness instead of sin, it might seem more hopeful (but don't change your vocabulary because of me ). I'm not atheist by the way, not that I am religious either.

 

[Little Linguist]

Yeah.. you are wise about that then.. this does not define me.. it only sheds some light ...

I see people become their types.. instead of seeing how their type is just a Guideline to how understand themselves..not a user manual on how to behave

Yes, like RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRR....I cannot show feeling or emotion now!!! I have an excuse for being an anti-social dingbat!!!!! YAYYYYYY! (Oh, wait, that was an emotion...I mean....Good to be made aware of that concept. *ahem*)

Or GAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH...I am emotional by nature, so I can be an emotional basket case, rely on others for my value and self-worth, and be generally a bastid....WHEWWW, I'm really not Narcissistic...it's my TYPE!

LOL Damn....

It's all about getting to know your weaknesses and improving them while maximizing strengths.

 

[cascadeco]

Hmm...I don't know that I do this. I think I tend to love people more when I see an 'imperfection'. But then I tend to view myself as a bundle of contradictions, and sometimes have a hard time understanding how someone could love/embrace all aspects of me (inevitably every person would find one or another aspect distasteful), but because I desire that, it seems hypocritical for me to cast someone else off for a less admirable trait. I sometimes think I go in the opposite direction...once I really come to love/admire/respect someone, it takes a helluva lot for me to lose that feeling (sometimes to my detriment).

It probably helps that I've never been one who has sought out role models, though - I can't say I've ever had one person I esteem more than another - I like different aspects of different people, the notion of 'perfection' is nonexistent (but, tangent, I think we each, as individuals, can achieve our best version of ourselves, and I think we seek out relationships/friendships/loves that become 'perfection' to us, in our subjective sense, weaknesses and all). I guess I don't really relate to turning people into an Ideal? (??) I've always viewed them as people.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't know how old you are, but you may grow out of it with life experience. I did to some degree.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I aspire to holiness and goodness and always seeking to better myself so I can be truly helpful and truthful in my work and relationships.

I have not read the whole thread, but this just screams out to me that this is all about you, you seeing what you want to become in other people, then idealizing that person. It is, simply, all about you. Once you accept yourself, warts and all, you won't have such a determined need to put others on a pedestal of perfection. The feelings to improve yourself will still be there, but not the fiction. You must look within for this growth.

When I meet people who appear to have reached a certain level of holiness or simplicity, or humility that I clearly haven't reached, I become VERY admirative and respectful of them. I want to learn from them and will try to spend as much time as I can watching them and speaking with them.

No, you want to secretly be them, perhaps even envy them to a degree. Then, when they prove to be human after all, you can use this to justify your own lack of perfection by being disappointed in someone or something else and projecting your feelings about your own shortcomings on to them.

Seriously.

I don't say this to be mean or anything, it's just that idealism is a mirror we hold to both our own face and the world and we try to see ourselves as perfect by what the world reflects back to us. So when other people are less than perfect we simultaneously get the thrill of their imperfection as an ego boost to ourselves and feel the downward hopelessness that nothing, nothing at all is truly "perfect" nor will it ever be. Very bittersweet. Not empowering.

Perhaps this vein has already been punctured in thread; forgive me for not wanting to read through all 5 pages to discover if it has. (Ah I'll likely peruse it now to see ) But think about what I have said at least.

Sending you because really, on this topic it is both positive and negative at play. Still be you, be idealistic, but balance with a healthy dose of realism. Don't just live in a world of fantasy thoughts on other people and "their" perfection (or lack thereof.)

 

[KLessard]

I have not read the whole thread, but this just screams out to me that this is all about you, you seeing what you want to become in other people, then idealizing that person. It is, simply, all about you. Once you accept yourself, warts and all, you won't have such a determined need to put others on a pedestal of perfection. The feelings to improve yourself will still be there, but not the fiction. You must look within for this growth.



No, you want to secretly be them, perhaps even envy them to a degree. Then, when they prove to be human after all, you can use this to justify your own lack of perfection by being disappointed in someone or something else and projecting your feelings about your own shortcomings on to them.

Seriously.

I don't say this to be mean or anything, it's just that idealism is a mirror we hold to both our own face and the world and we try to see ourselves as perfect by what the world reflects back to us. So when other people are less than perfect we simultaneously get the thrill of their imperfection as an ego boost to ourselves and feel the downward hopelessness that nothing, nothing at all is truly "perfect" nor will it ever be. Very bittersweet. Not empowering.

Perhaps this vein has already been punctured in thread; forgive me for not wanting to read through all 5 pages to discover if it has. (Ah I'll likely peruse it now to see ) But think about what I have said at least.

Sending you because really, on this topic it is both positive and negative at play. Still be you, be idealistic, but balance with a healthy dose of realism. Don't just live in a world of fantasy thoughts on other people and "their" perfection (or lack thereof.)

I find this to be more hurtful than helpful. :sad:

 

[Thalassa]

I find this to be more hurtful than helpful. :sad:

Why? I really think she made some good points, and her intention was obviously to help you with this issue.

 

[Thalassa]

I would like to add, that in my experience, one of the ways that I overcame these issues in my own life was by accepting myself - by accepting my own flaws and "dark side." It really does help. Once you can see yourself realistically and be able to love and forgive yourself for being flawed, it's much easier to love others realistically with their strengths and weaknesses. It takes time though, and yeah, it's not easy. It might hurt a little but that's growth.

 

[KLessard]

I would like to add, that in my experience, one of the ways that I overcame these issues in my own life was by accepting myself - by accepting my own flaws and "dark side." It really does help. Once you can see yourself realistically and be able to love and forgive yourself for being flawed, it's much easier to love others realistically with their strengths and weaknesses. It takes time though, and yeah, it's not easy. It might hurt a little but that's growth.

I do see myself as sinful and flawed, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I won't "accept" my dark side, I'll do what needs to be done to be purified. I know it has to hurt. It has hurt plenty already. I'm not stupid.
What I didn't like about PeaceBaby's answer was the derisive tone.

I do know I have to learn to forgive myself since God does forgive me, and that will help me forgive others more easily. I do have issues with bitterness.
I do not believe this is something that will come from within. A sinful nature does not produce good fruit. Without God's help, I am helpless. I fully rely on him for this.

 

[Thalassa]

I do see myself as sinful and flawed, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I won't "accept" my dark side, I'll do what needs to be done to be purified. I know it has to hurt. It has hurt plenty already. I'm not stupid.
What I didn't like about PeaceBaby's answer was the derisive tone.

I do know I have to learn to forgive myself since God does forgive me, and that will help me forgive others more easily. I do have issues with bitterness.
I do not believe this is something that will come from within. A sinful nature does not produce good fruit. Without God's help, I am helpless. I fully rely on him for this.

You won't be "purified" until you're dead. No one except Jesus is without sin. To delude yourself into thinking you'll be "pure" while you're on this Earth is not Biblical...nor particularly healthy from a psychological stand-point. If you have this much self-hatred you're going to project that on to other people. That is why we all need to be forgiven.

I think Peace Baby had a good point, and I've never known Peace Baby to be harsh, so I think you just don't want to face what's happening for what it is. It's really common. Lots of people go through it. I did, and sure I still do to some degree.

 

[KLessard]

You won't be "purified" until you're dead. No one except Jesus is without sin. To delude yourself into thinking you'll be "pure" while you're on this Earth is not Biblical

I know that too. I don't pretend I'll ever be pure in this life, but God's will for our lives is that we become more like Jesus, and be holy as He is holy. This is what I aspire to.

 

[Thalassa]

I know that too. I don't pretend I'll ever be pure in this life, but God's will for our lives is that we become more like Jesus, and be holy as He is holy. This is what I aspire to.

Ok. I'm not trying to insult you. Please don't take it that way. I just was relating my experience to you, and thought that what Peace Baby said was helpful. That's all. I mean no harm.

 

[PeaceBaby]

What I didn't like about PeaceBaby's answer was the derisive tone.

Not derisive - do you feel I am mocking you? Not at all, not my intention at all. I cut right to the chase though expressing my perceptions to you. I just wanted to show you what I saw, and I didn't deliver it in the softest way I could have.

And, I didn't think you would be prepared for me to be that ... real. But you can take from it was resonates with you and reject it utterly if you wish. But it was delivered with love.

I've never known Peace Baby to be harsh, so I think you just don't want to face what's happening for what it is.

Thanks marmalade

 

[KLessard]

Not derisive - do you feel I am mocking you?

Yes. And I don't believe all you said was truthful, even if some of it was, and I had seen those things already. It's not like I'm a newbie at introspection or something. It's hard enough as it is.

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ I'll just send you a don't be mad. Love yourself, then you will fulfil your ideals too.

Honestly, I only send you best wishes in this journey of self-discovery that we all happen to be on.

 

[KLessard]

Nah, I see it all now...

You two have been sticking NFP motivations on my NFJ forehead, and that just insulted me to the core.
Why? NFPs are self-focused and always busy putting order inside of themselves.
NFJs are more people-focused and society-focused, and PeaceBaby saying this reflection about loving ideals or people was all about myself was basically saying I was really just self-focused, while being selfless is what I aspire to. I can go on for a very long time without focusing on myself and caring for others in a selfless way, and that is more natural and noble to me. I do need to clean up inside sometimes, and I'm just doing that right now. But that doesn't mean this reflection is self-focused and all. I am very concerned about the people I deal with and might have hurt or puzzled in this matter. I value my relationships with them very highly.

 

[Thalassa]

Nah, I see it all now...

You two have been sticking NFP motivations on my NFJ forehead, and that just insulted me to the core.
Why? NFPs are self-focused and always busy putting order inside of themselves.
NFJs are more people-focused and society-focused, and PeaceBaby saying this reflection about loving ideals or people was all about myself was basically saying I was really just self-focused, while being selfless is what I aspire to. I can go on for a very long time without focusing on myself and caring for others in a selfless way, and that is more natural and noble to me. I do need to clean up inside sometimes, and I'm just doing that right now. But that doesn't mean this reflection is self-focused and all. I am very concerned about the people I deal with and might have hurt or puzzled in this matter. I value my relationships with them very highly.

NFJs are not necessarily more people-focused or society focused than NFPs. That's an untrue assumption. NFJs are just more likely to build their value system on the current cultural climate because of Fe. Fe is more likely to adapt to social convention. That does not equal being more people-focused or more society-focused, necessarily. NFPs actually usually care a great deal about society and people, though our value systems are more individualistic.

Idealizing other people and then rejecting them for being human isn't selfless. It's completely selfish. It's like haviing a crush on someone. You just don't like being told that you're being selfish. Fe can be selfish just as easily as Fi.

It's great that you value your relationships and don't want to hurt other people. I'm not sure why you posted this here if you didn't want support, advice, or feedback. Were we simply supposed to agree with you and pat you on the back?

Well, if you need affection I will certainly give you a hug

I don't think anyone meant to attack you in any way. I guess people thought you were looking to discuss the topic, and apparently you weren't.

 

[Thalassa]

There is a site called LiveJournal.com where you can make private or "friends only" journal entries. I have a Live Journal. It's very helpful if you just need to vent, or don't want people to offer their opinions on what you've posted. Everyone needs a space to vent. I just don't think Type C is the most secure place for it.