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[NF] Forgive me (loving ideals instead of people) - For all types

KLessard

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Forgive me for seeing and loving ideals in people and not the people themselves...

I am seeing in some posts that people who have been loved and admired by NFs have come to realize they weren't loved for who and what they were but for the ideals NFs thought they had found in them.

I am guilty and repentant. :cry:

I don't want to justify myself and have no interest in doing so, but if you are interested in knowing what this is all about...

I don't know if all NFs feel the same about this, so I'll use the I instead of we.

I am very sensitive about evil within myself (and a Christian on the top of that, so I have very clear convictions about sin). I aspire to holiness and goodness and always seeking to better myself so I can be truly helpful and truthful in my work and relationships. When I meet people who appear to have reached a certain level of holiness or simplicity, or humility that I clearly haven't reached, I become VERY admirative and respectful of them. I want to learn from them and will try to spend as much time as I can watching them and speaking with them. I do love them as people, but when I begin finding faults in them as well as goodness, I feel very disappointed, and I start thinking I have to find another role model.
I've had great inner struggles about this, and in his patience and mercy, God has taught me to be gracious and to love these people as they were with their qualities and weaknesses, as he loves us (sorry atheists, laugh at me if you will).
What happens here, is that my love for them has been so intense at the time I admired them as ideal human beings, that I can't help loving them still and will start being more objective in appreciating them for who they are. This is where true love begins, and I know it.

But then again, if any of you have ever been loved and admired by an NF in this idealistic way, this is great honour. The Idealist is seeing something wonderful and universal in you. I can't speak for other NFs, but it isn't just the ideals I love in you, I love you as a human being as well, and hope I will be better at this as I grow in maturity.

A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?
 

Arclight

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Forgive me for seeing and loving ideals in people and not the people themselves...

I am seeing in some posts that people who have been loved and admired by NFs have come to realize they weren't loved for who and what they were but for the ideals NFs thought they had found in them.

I am guilty and repentant. :cry:

I don't want to justify myself and have no interest in doing so, but if you are interested in knowing what this is all about...

I don't know if all NFs feel the same about this, so I'll use the I instead of we.

I am very sensitive about evil within myself (and a Christian on the top of that, so I have very clear convictions about sin). I aspire to holiness and goodness and always seeking to better myself so I can be truly helpful and truthful in my work and relationships. When I meet people who appear to have reached a certain level of holiness or simplicity, or humility that I clearly haven't reached, I become VERY admirative and respectful of them. I want to learn from them and will try to spend as much time as I can watching them and speaking with them. I do love them as people, but when I begin finding faults in them as well as goodness, I feel very disappointed, and I start thinking I have to find another role model.
I've had great inner struggles about this, and in his patience and mercy, God has taught me to be gracious and to love these people as they were with their qualities and weaknesses, as he loves us (sorry atheists, laugh at me if you will).
What happens here, is that my love for them has been so intense at the time I admired them as ideal human beings, that I can't help loving them still and will start being more objective in appreciating them for who they are. This is where true love begins, and I know it.

But then again, if any of you have ever been loved and admired by an NF in this idealistic way, this is great honour. The Idealist is seeing something wonderful and universal in you. I can't speak for other NFs, but it isn't just the ideals I love in you, I love you as a human being as well, and hope I will be better at this as I grow in maturity.

A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?

Perhaps there are reasons people have not become Diamonds,regardless of potential . Perhaps they have hit a wall within themselves...
This kind of growth can only come from within not from someone else..
If an INFJ has ideals about this person and starts to push the person in that direction they will obviously be rubbing a persons raw spots in the process.. this can be a slippery slope that will often backfire with those not ready or willing to face their potential..it can feel manipulative..

Also INFJ's have too much idealization of themselves perhaps.. and they see themselves as a savior of sorts..

When both ideals start to crumble in the face of reality.. The results are shattering for both parties..

OH I might add.. You have no need to apologize.. We are who we are..
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
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Perhaps there are reasons people have not become Diamonds,regardless of potential . Perhaps they have hit a wall within themselves...
This kind of growth can only come from within not from someone else..
If an INFJ has ideals about this person and starts to push the person in that direction they will obviously be rubbing a persons raw spots in the process.. this can be a slippery slope that will often backfire with those not ready or willing to face their potential..it can feel manipulative..

Also INFJ's have too much idealization of themselves perhaps.. and they see themselves as a savior of sorts..

When both ideals start to crumble in the face of reality.. The results are shattering for both parties..


I have realized that when I start to let go and accept people as they are, this is the moment they start to open up and be cooperative.
I don't see myself as a saviour, oh dear, no. But being a counselor, it is my role as a human to help people reach their full potential. In my experience, praying for them and just listening is often the best thing to do.
 

Arclight

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I have realized that when I start to let go and accept people as they are, this is the moment they start to open up and be cooperative.
I don't see myself as a saviour, oh dear, no. But being a counselor, it is my role as a human to help people reach their full potential. In my experience, praying for them and just listening is often the best thing to do.
Yes.. acceptance breeds acceptance.. You are the 1st INFJ I have ever seen admit this..(I think)
That sometimes it has to start with you.. or at least meet half way..
You are responsible for your interactions with people too..Their feelings thoughts and perceptions have as much value as yours.. even if in reality they don't..

I added to my last post.. that you have no need to apologize for this..
Ultimately it is a noble gesture to want to love unconditionally..
But it takes an open heart and mind on both sides..and a healthy dose of reality
 

speculative

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A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?

Tie type 4 shame of self in with this idealization of the other and it's quite a cold soup of dissapointment. I struggle with this issue, but have not yet come up with the answer. Very lately, I have gone through a process of trying to learn not to idealize someone and see them just as they are. I've been trying this with a new group of people I am working with, and it seems to be working so far. What I am finding is that as I learn not to idealize others, it makes it easier for me to not idealize myself. Type 4 shame rears its ugly head when we idealize ourselves and then do not live up to those ideals.

Here is a quote I made up many years ago, that's related to this idea of idealization:
"Because we live so small, we must dream so big."

I think we do need to dream big, but have realistic expectations for self and others.
 

KLessard

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Yes.. acceptance breeds acceptance.. You are the 1st INFJ I have ever seen admit this..(I think)
That sometimes it has to start with you.. or at least meet half way..
You are responsible for your interactions with people too..Their feelings thoughts and perceptions have as much value as yours.. even if in reality they don't..

I added to my last post.. that you have no need to apologize for this..
Ultimately it is a noble gesture to want to love unconditionally..
But it takes an open heart and mind on both sides..and a healthy dose of reality


I have been raised by an ESTJ mother (practically the opposite of me). I struggled for 25 years in this relationship. MBTI has helped me understand her priorities, and I began cooperating and taking her priorities into account and acting accordingly. We are reconciled now, because that incited her to do her part.
 

Arclight

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I have been raised by an ESTJ mother (practically the opposite of me). I struggled for 25 years in this relationship. MBTI has helped me understand her priorities, and I began cooperating and taking her priorities into account and acting accordingly. We are reconciled now, because that incited her to do her part.

Then you are well on your way to being that diamond yourself..:cheese:
 

Athenian200

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I've kind of gone in the opposite direction.

I tend to love ideals INSTEAD of people, and dismiss people as not being good enough to suit my ideals.
 

Arclight

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A little, sometimes.

But I'm so lost in my mind that half the time I'm not even aware of enough of myself to be aware that I feel lonely.
And yet, aren't you also a little too self aware if you are lost inside yourself??
 

Athenian200

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And yet, aren't you also a little too self aware if you are lost inside yourself??

I'm self-aware in the sense of knowing what I'm thinking about or what I'm planning, but I'm not aware of being lonely because that would require me to focus on the present. I can remember what I have felt, and I can anticipate what I will feel, but I'm unaware of what I'm feeling now. I'd need other people around in order to facilitate an awareness of that.

I suppose that I'm lonely, but it's only a guess, an idea. I don't have a point of reference. I think I should feel lonely, but it's possible that I'm not lonely. But regardless of whether I am lonely, I am impaired in my perception by lack of contact with others, so it would be beneficial to change the situation at some point.
 

Zoom

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A moment can occur, after ye've realised that this person is not as perfect as ye thought they were, that they do not embody the ideal you thought they did...

...when they do something that is beautifully ideal in that manner you thought of them, and they did it with all their flaws and lacking qualities intact, and I think that can make it even more amazing - when someone is not at an achieved state of zen or humility but does something in line with that virtue or strength.

I might be entirely off here, it was simply my first thought.
 

Arclight

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I'm self-aware in the sense of knowing what I'm thinking about or what I'm planning, but I'm not aware of being lonely because that would require me to focus on the present. I can remember what I have felt, and I can anticipate what I will feel, but I'm unaware of what I'm feeling now. I'd need other people around in order to facilitate an awareness of that.

I suppose that I'm lonely, but it's only a guess, an idea. I don't have a point of reference. I think I should feel lonely, but it's possible that I'm not lonely. But regardless of whether I am lonely, I am impaired in my perception by lack of contact with others, so it would be beneficial to change the situation at some point.

I would say this qualifies as loneliness.. or at least severe detachment .. most likely caused by loneliness...

Here is an idea for you to ponder.. suppose for a minute that the theory of self dependency is a mirage...And that people actually need each other.. That they are, in fact, dependent on each other.. wouldn't that explain a few things?? and who do you think would facilitate such a situation of disconnection between people and who would benefit from it?

I see you have added to your post..perhaps you knew what I was writing or where I was going to go??.. LOL
 

KLessard

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What are you, No Exit? Are you NF? (Just curious). You sound a bit NT to me.
 

Arclight

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A moment can occur, after ye've realised that this person is not as perfect as ye thought they were, that they do not embody the ideal you thought they did...

...when they do something that is beautifully ideal in that manner you thought of them, and they did it with all their flaws and lacking qualities intact, and I think that can make it even more amazing - when someone is not at an achieved state of zen or humility but does something embodying that virtue or strength.

I might be entirely off here, it was simply my first thought.

The reality is.. in perfect circumstance, I can be the ideal placed on me.. However circumstance is rarely perfect..So as you say.. Zen is not attained.. So the ideal moments are fleeting and the rest of the time you are left witch circumstance.. I think
 

Arclight

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What are you, No Exit? Are you NF? (Just curious). You sound a bit NT to me.

I am not sure.. I have been through a roller coaster of emotions the past 2 years, a lot of my pillars of identity have crumbled..(my own doing) and I am lost to who I really I am..

When I first took MBTI.. I scored INTJ... then INTP.. eventually to ISFP and now lately INFP.. I went from type 9 to type 6 to type 4 .. I hope I am being more honest with myself.. It's very obvious I haven't been me for a long time.. I was living very much a shadow of myself..
 

Zoom

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The reality is.. in perfect circumstance, I can be the ideal placed on me.. However circumstance is rarely perfect..So as you say.. Zen is not attained.. So the ideal moments are fleeting and the rest of the time you are left witch circumstance.. I think

What? No.

I am saying that ye realise that perfection is indeed practically impossible, yes - but that the things people can do when you do believe something about them to such a degree can be admirable and just as beautiful. Expecting your version of perfection is oftentimes a form of self-sabotage - it may very well not be fulfilled because you are still stuck in your head, not actually seeing the person in front of ye and the wonderful things they actually can and might do in your life. Idealism blinds ye to the daily beauty that is its real life equal.

Losing idealism - whether tied to a person or ideal - does not mean one has to give up positive thinking in turn for only the cold, hard, grey side of daily life.
 

KLessard

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I am not sure.. I have been through a roller coaster of emotions the past 2 years, a lot of my pillars of identity have crumbled..(my own doing) and I am lost to who I really I am..

When I first took MBTI.. I scored INTJ... then INTP.. eventually to ISFP and now lately INFP.. I went from type 9 to type 6 to type 4 .. I hope I am being more honest with myself.. It's very obvious I haven't been me for a long time.. I was living very much a shadow of myself..

Oh... Sorry to hear that. But you are very rational, I think. I would go for INT, reading your answers. INTJ, even.
 

Arclight

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What? No.

I am saying that ye realise that perfection is indeed practically impossible, yes - but that the things people can do when you do believe something about them to such a degreee can be admirable and just as beautiful. Perfection (in its ideal state) is boring - it may very well not be fulfilled because you are still stuck in your head, not actually seeing the person in front of ye and the wonderful things they actually can and might do in your life. Idealism blinds ye to the daily beauty that is its real life equal.

Losing idealism - whether tied to a person or ideal - does not mean one has to give up positive thinking in turn for only the cold, hard, grey expanse of daily life.

Ok that is more clear.. and I agree wholly..
To me, The ideal is love itself.. not the person..
No person can live up to an ideal, except to themselves perhaps..
But people can fit into the ideal of love and still be who they are, if the ideal of love is real..
know what i mean?
 
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