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[ENFJ] Question for ENFJs

Priori

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I'm reading "ENFJ Personal Growth" and it recommends that to grow as an invidual and ENFJ should pay attention to their 'inner images.'

Can any ENFJs here shed some light these 'inner images'?

Thanks in advance:wubbie:

To grow as an individual, the ENFJ needs to focus on paying attention to their inner images. This means they need to be open to the possibilities that lie beneath their judgements and values, rather than just accepting the appearance of values which accord with their sense of rightness. The ENFJ needs to understand that developing their ability to see the subjective possibilities within themselves and others does not threaten their ability to make correct judgements, but rather enhances it, and enhances their personal chances for achieving a measure of success in their lives.
 

Scott N Denver

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I'm reading "ENFJ Personal Growth" and it recommends that to grow as an invidual and ENFJ should pay attention to their 'inner images.'

Can any ENFJs here shed some light these 'inner images'?

Thanks in advance:wubbie:

I think inner images => Ni, and all that values stuff=Fe. In short, develop and exercise your Ni. At least thats my best stab at what they mean.
 

bronson

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I'm reading "ENFJ Personal Growth" and it recommends that to grow as an invidual and ENFJ should pay attention to their 'inner images.'

Can any ENFJs here shed some light these 'inner images'?

Thanks in advance:wubbie:


I find it an odd proposition to 'open to the possibilities that lie beneath [our] judgements and values' simply because we are already both inherently Intuitive as well as Judging. Its as though this is saying that we must stop being ESFJ's and become ENFP's or something.

However, the inner images of the ENFJ form one complex beast, let me tell you. Most of the time they're lost deep below a multitude of insincere exteriors. And yet, I feel that sometimes we truly believe we are these false exterior images we project.

To be a J and develop the 'subjective possibilites within [oneself]' can be, I believe, a difficult task. Mainly because, as I explained elsewhere (this being only my experience of course) to explore said possibilities is to throw oneself into ideological chaos. At which point control and organisation of the true hidden self-image is once more seriously challenged and possibly temporarily lost... and this is painful and traumatic.

With our great variety of masks, great solace is found in the knowledge that there is a true-blue you underneath - that while I'm playing as the Artisan, or aggreeing with some NT's concept that I don't really aggree with at all, there is a real me underneath. If I explore reformations of that I might lose it, and not know who I am, and with the many other pretend me's around, this would just be too much to handle - hello meltdown.



As much as the author you're reading may believe that this development process will enhance our Judgements, it's almost as though its just too hard, and scary to hand your most sacred inner self over to such a risky task.

Its far easier to slip into one of the various other-selves (what a concept!), which are somewhat fake, but our tool to supreme socialisation.
 

Kalach

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You're a judger before you are an intuitive. Thus a leader. And if you're not going to check out what's possible beyond your current judgment, then I ain't following your leadership. In layman's terms, I needn't accept an obligation to respect your feelings. Does anyone have to? If you have not determined what options are available for your decisions (that is, for your feelings about what should happen), does anyone need to care about what you say should happen? Thus, be open to the possibilities that lie beneath your current judgments. The options. The choices. The different ways the same end point can be reached. The varieties of people and their different ways of doing things. That's what it means by "be aware of possibilities." (I suppose.)



Now, was that support for Ni and thus support for ENFJs, or was that support for Fi, and thus cancellation of ENFJs? Who knows any more.
 

bronson

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The different ways the same end point can be reached.


(What end point are you referring to?

I don't think there's an end point. I guess if you just mean whatever it is that our inner images have transfromed into after abandoning the values and judgements held onto, at the particular beginning point of this development, in order to explore these new subjective possibilities, then that makes sense.)

Anyway, aren't our current values and judgements we hold onto already dictated by something else? According to the quote our 'sense of rightness'. So, in that case, in order to develop we have to go against our sense of rightness, which, what? naturally quashes our freedom in intuitive exploration?

And what is our sense of rightness - its the conclusion we've already come to about the world through such explorations; a formed worldview, or even something more innate.
I guess the quote just sounds extreme - to put aside the conclusions you've come to thus far so as to find other options of what you could look like inside. That's a big process.

Then in regards to leadership, we'd seem somewhat capricious and unreliable to abandone whatever it is we previously maintained as our true qualities and become something different. Who's going to respect that?
And the point here isn't even necessarily what another thinks about our feelings, it's the way we feel about who we truly are underneath.

And all this isn't to say that there isn't a willingness to explore ideas and concepts, which will, as before, continue to strengthen who we already are. But to adopt them as your own image and state that - this is who I am, I am no longer who I was; that's not simple.


I know, it all sounds like bad faith, and ultimately I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile process. I think my main point before was I don't believe it's easy for the ENFJ individual to simply depart from the way in which they naturally understand the world in order to explore different and undetermined options of what they could look like inside.
 

Phoenix_400

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(What end point are you referring to?

I don't think there's an end point. I guess if you just mean whatever it is that our inner images have transfromed into after abandoning the values and judgements held onto, at the particular beginning point of this development, in order to explore these new subjective possibilities, then that makes sense.)

Anyway, aren't our current values and judgements we hold onto already dictated by something else? According to the quote our 'sense of rightness'. So, in that case, in order to develop we have to go against our sense of rightness, which, what? naturally quashes our freedom in intuitive exploration?

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. Simple perhaps, but not easy.
The really isn't an endpoint. As long you're alive there's opportunity to grow and learn.

I bolded a good question you asked in the quote and now I want to ask you. ARE your values dictated by something else? We are the sum total of our experiences and the way we've reacted to them. This is true. Do you believe what you believe because others told you it was right, or because you looked deep within yourself and asked if its what you held true for you? I don't think its a matter of abandoning your values and judgments,as you stated, but of making sure those values are authentic.

There came a point in my life where I questioned everything I'd ever been told and everything I believed in. I looked deep, I tested, I accepted when I realized there were things I thought I believed in that felt wrong when looking deeper. It was hell doing that, but I feel much more myself by having done it.

Maybe the big thing this asks is to start showing your inner self more. We can never escape ourselves, but we can start asserting ourselves more. Instead of agreeing just to get along, don't be afraid to ruffle feathers. Tell others how you REALLY feel. Show yourself. In this way, you find out who your real friends are because they accept you even if there are things you disagree with. You may develop fewer bonds, but those bonds you do develop will be far stronger.

I'm fine with only having a small circle of close friends and even they want to strangle me sometimes. It hurts me when I've upset them or we disagree with each other, but it would be more torturous for me to know that I've compromised myself for something I don't believe in. I crave acceptance, but only from those I value. Anyone else who doesn't like me can usually piss off. I can be diplomatic when the situation calls for it, but sometimes you just have to be willing to piss people off.

This is coming from an INxP though, it may be different for you ENFJ types. Am I completely off the mark here? I just did a quick speed read through this thread.
 

MmmCrazy

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You have to question your faith to grow in it. That's what they're trying to tell the ENFJs.

It's a completely valid point, and one I have to be reminded of often! :newwink:
 

nynesneg

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This means they need to be open to the possibilities that lie beneath their judgements and values, rather than just accepting the appearance of values which accord with their sense of rightness.
I can relate to this. I have been told I focus so much on my idealistic values and goals that I miss great opportunities because they don't meet my goal up on a pedestal.

I think I second guess myself and feel guilty about things I wish I had done differently too much. Not sure the deep way to improve that though.
 

Domino

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I'm constantly undergoing evolution for many reasons, mostly external ones that compel me toward change for the sake of survival. I find it difficult to shed light on this topic because motivation has always been there, probably because I grew up with a kinetic Ne-primary who was always on the prowl for something to do or a new thing to try.

Inner images, like Crazy said, has everything to do with "faith". We stand on sure ground in terms of subjective values, feelings, etc, but can lose touch with/recoil from reality when it proves inevitably to be too harsh or brutal. I wonder if that's why a great deal of us become writers - creating an elaborate reality more real than real itself that matches what we see so clearly and tangibly in our heads. This doesn't mean having no concept of reality, but rather an overlaid layer of heaven against the revolting bloody background that we so hate.
 

Poki

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I'm constantly undergoing evolution for many reasons, mostly external ones that compel me toward change for the sake of survival. I find it difficult to shed light on this topic because motivation has always been there, probably because I grew up with a kinetic Ne-primary who was always on the prowl for something to do or a new thing to try.

Inner images, like Crazy said, has everything to do with "faith". We stand on sure ground in terms of subjective values, feelings, etc, but can lose touch with/recoil from reality when it proves inevitably to be too harsh or brutal. I wonder if that's why a great deal of us become writers - creating an elaborate reality more real than real itself that matches what we see so clearly and tangibly in our heads. This doesn't mean having no concept of reality, but rather an overlaid layer of heaven against the revolting bloody background that we so hate.

This is just from observation, but is this recoil when reality becomes more than you "think" you can handle in terms of values and feelings on an internal personal level? You lose faith that you can do it or that you can handle your personal life?

How does this apply to the burdens others place on you vs the burdens you place on yourself in regards to things being to brutal or harsh?
 

Poki

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I know, it all sounds like bad faith, and ultimately I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile process. I think my main point before was I don't believe it's easy for the ENFJ individual to simply depart from the way in which they naturally understand the world in order to explore different and undetermined options of what they could look like inside.

It is hard, just like its hard for an I type to realize or accept what they look like outside.
 

Kalach

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(What end point are you referring to?

Decisions about what other people should do, the proper ordering of people and their relationships, harmony. Values, I guess.

I'm not totally sure about this, but I think the advice about inner images refers to the path to the value, not (necessarily) the value itself. Making the value richer and deeper by choosing to see a deeper complexity, a longer journey, becoming aware of different expressions of the same thing. It's not so much abandoning the value as it is affirming it in new ways.

Abandoning immediate value judgment for the sake of longer term development, discovery and expression of that judgment. You can't do it too much or you would be abandoning your identity, but if it's not done at all, the identity stays shallow.


All ENFJs I know have "the dream". They choose to see a huge picture of what everything isn't now but will be, sometimes looking years into the future. Unless I am mistaken, that is where the "inner images" are. So whatever that "advice for growth" is, it looks like ENFJs do it naturally anyway. The advice is presumably just to let you know one of the things you guys do is a good process and worth actively supporting in yourself.

:nice:


What I have heard expressed is that sometimes those inner images can be horrible and very hard to bear.
 

nynesneg

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"An ENFJ who has not found their place in the world is likely to be extremely sensitive to criticism, and to have the tendency to worry excessively and feel guilty. " "As giving and caring as the ENFJ is, they need to remember to value their own needs as well as the needs of others." "Tendency to not give themselves credit when things go right" Link.

^Aha moment! Would not say I'm extremely sensitive, I'm just 10x harder on myself to begin with than the person who critisizes me. I tend to put other people's needs above my own, and at times take on their problems myself.


Suggestions from older mature ENFJs on their journey of personal growth?
 

bronson

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I bolded a good question you asked in the quote and now I want to ask you. ARE your values dictated by something else? We are the sum total of our experiences and the way we've reacted to them. This is true. Do you believe what you believe because others told you it was right, or because you looked deep within yourself and asked if its what you held true for you? I don't think its a matter of abandoning your values and judgments,as you stated, but of making sure those values are authentic.

Well, the thing is, all humans, I believe, are intersubjective beings and therefore its unescapable that we 'believe what we believe because others have told [us] its right'. In the same way, we are involved in forming the beliefs, values and judegments of others - like this here forum right now.
I do agree that its important to discern what is true for your experience in life... but ultimately what you know as true for yourself aint just something you dream up yourself.

But definitely aggree with that last statement that such a process aids in authenticating the values we already have, rather than leaving them behind.


All ENFJs I know have "the dream". They choose to see a huge picture of what everything isn't now but will be, sometimes looking years into the future. Unless I am mistaken, that is where the "inner images" are. So whatever that "advice for growth" is, it looks like ENFJs do it naturally anyway. The advice is presumably just to let you know one of the things you guys do is a good process and worth actively supporting in yourself.

Dude thats a good point. Something I very much relate to.

We stand on sure ground in terms of subjective values, feelings, etc, but can lose touch with/recoil from reality when it proves inevitably to be too harsh or brutal.

Exactly. And I liked your point about why we all become writers :)
 

toast

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This is just from observation, but is this recoil when reality becomes more than you "think" you can handle in terms of values and feelings on an internal personal level? You lose faith that you can do it or that you can handle your personal life?

How does this apply to the burdens others place on you vs the burdens you place on yourself in regards to things being to brutal or harsh?

You know what's funny about this to me? The more I think about the "burdens" people place on me, the more I realize they are filtered through me before I feel them. Like other people don't really effect me much at all, but these "ideals" I have (very quickly) define how much something hurts or effects me. I feel like nothing gets to me unless I put it there, but at the same time I am out of control. Like my mind has committed itself to follow my own rules. So when I'm overwhelmed, I can't just stop it... even though I know I consciously know somehow I am "capable" of stopping it. It is probably one of the reasons things can effect me so deeply. Because not only do I feel bad from the burden, but I also feel frustration that I "can't" shake it. Does this make sense to anyone else?
 

nynesneg

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^I agree. Also perhaps my inner Ti (or self taught), tries to put all my emotions away and come up with a logical way to "fix" the problem (my intense feelings) which might be impossible. Although it is a useful mechanism so you don't dwell in pessimism.
 

Domino

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I immediately go into "fix it" mode (or as I call it, "dipping souls out of the Styx") if I don't restrain myself. My tertiary Se wants to DO something, force a total victory or at least a stalemate against the antagonizing presence, on my behalf or for others. I feel like I have all the drive and force for conquest that an ENTJ has, while being tethered tightly to my INFJ ideals and sensitivities. It makes things precarious for me, trying to balance the angel and the dragon, especially since my E/I split is almost 50/50.
 

toast

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put all my emotions away and come up with a logical way to "fix" the problem (my intense feelings) which might be impossible.

God, that seems to completely fail about a hundred times before it succeeds - quieting your emotions by looking for a logical solution. And then try doing that when the problems are coming from someone you've chosen to care deeply for & you are stuck in an endless formidable loop that only they, or time & distraction, can get you out of.

Though our thinking comes well after our thinking... It almost seems like I'm convinced upon feeling something that I've already justified the feeling somehow. So I have to argue myself out of it. Maybe "inner images" could be applied to that too... the ideals that shape our emotional reactions.
 
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