[NF] INFJ/INFP Points of Contention

[prplchknz]

I tend to like INFJs more than I like INFPs most of the time. sometimes I'll hate an INFJ and sometimes I'll love an INFP

 

[RDF]

About the pattern (mentioned in a few places here) of INFJs feeling like we always have to do things on the INFP's terms ... I'm really struggling with this a lot right now. I find that when I can articulate things strongly and clearly to my INFP partner, I may be able to have a real say in the core dynamics of our interactions. But it takes me so long to figure out what "my terms" might be, and to find a way to articulate them clearly and without what she names as vagueness - it's like I can't keep up with the strength and powerful gravitational pull of her terms, which she seems to strongly project, without speaking them, almost effortlessly as a matter of simply moving through the world. The default is that I am and pretty much always have been constantly scrambling to adapt to her. As I try to adapt, her terms sort of shift and change and mutate as I am trying to figure out how to adapt. This whole situation keeps me subtly but powerfully off balance in a way that's becoming increasingly not-okay for me. I'm getting increasingly soul-tired from this process. At this point it almost sickens me sometimes, to feel so off-balance, like some aspect of my survival requires me to not keep being in this state of disorientation. But at this point I don't yet know how to get it to stop.

When a Perceiver starts using Ne/Se indiscriminately (IOW, things like playing "devil's advocate," reworking the discussion's terms of engagement on the fly, ranting, jawboning an issue to death, etc.), it can get tiring for the person on the receiving end, even another Perceiver.

The usual answer is to anticipate the other person's agenda ahead of time and work out some talking points for it. There's no requirement that you have to keep fencing with a Perceiver's out-of-control Ne/Se. It's okay to give a talking point or two and wrap up with, “Frankly I don’t know any other way to put it. That’s just how I feel about it.”

And if the other person fights you on that and says that's not good enough, then erect some boundaries: Determine who gets the final say in this or that domain of the relationship.

Also it's okay to take time-outs. For example, if a Perceiver hits you with a wide-ranging issue out of the blue, ask them to make their best presentation on the issue and then tell them you need to think about it and get back to them with your response later. Then use that time-out to prep your argument and talking points for a response.

Basically, by doing these things you're just deflecting an overdose of P with your J (Te/Fe). But Te/Fe isn't just for Judgers; even Perceivers like me use Te/Fe tools like agendas and talking points to deal with discussions that easily and predictably spin out of control (for example, in business meetings).

Naturally, you shouldn't abuse your J any more than a Perceiver should abuse their P. That is, you shouldn't use talking points to simply shut down discussion of all uncomfortable topics. When overused, they can kill communication. But used judiciously, I think that agendas, talking points, and boundaries are fair play for use by both Ps and Js when discussions tend to degenerate into ranting or jawboning or whatever.

 

[Werebudgie]

FLD, thank you for this reply. I was initially confused by the wording because I'm a perceiving dominant and my INFP is a judging dominant (I know MBTI uses first extroverted function for the last letter, it isn't always useful for me). I think part of what you write isn't applicable at all to our situation but at least one part may be.

...using Ne/Se indiscriminately (IOW, things like playing "devil's advocate," reworking the discussion's terms of engagement on the fly, ...), it can get tiring for the person on the receiving end.

Point of clarification: this term-setting thing in our case really isn't just about discussion. It permeates various layers of our overall shared life together.

That said, the bolded part of the quote above may possibly be applicable somehow. But I question whether that's at or even very near the root of the problem in our case.

The usual answer is to anticipate the other person's agenda ahead of time and work out some talking points for it.

That orientation (being so oriented to her that I am anticipating her agenda ahead of time and working out some responses) would take a LOT of energy for me as a way of life. And, more importantly, it would probably exacerbate that feeling of soul-tiredness I mentioned in my previous comment.

Determine who gets the final say in this or that domain of the relationship.

In order to do that effectively, I think I would need to have more - and more consistent - clarity than I currently have amidst this disorientation I described.

Also it's okay to take time-outs.

I wouldn't do it like you described in the rest of that paragraph, but I have been feeling like I maybe need some sort of bigger-picture time-out.

This is what the problem/situation actually looks like from my organic Ni perception:

I feel like I'm built something like like a tuning fork and that I can pick up resonance from various sources - like what's vibrating around me can set up a matching resonance inside of me. I feel like I have, for years, in many different ways, been positioned or oriented in such a way as to pick up and vibrate with my INFP's resonance. I feel that this configuration of allowing her resonance to determine mine is now beginning to make me sick at some hard-to-tolerate level. I feel like this isn't how I'm supposed to be positioned, like it's a opposite/wrong use of this tuning fork aspect of how I'm built. I feel like the resonance to which I should be primarily oriented is what comes through my Ni landscape, that I should be vibrating at that resonance, and then we would have to see what that situation would mean for our interactions.

But I feel almost physically trapped in this current configuration. I feel like I can't get the air around us to go still enough enough to stop this "sympathetic" (in a metaphorically physical, not emotional, sense) resonance from my INFP. It's like the sound just keeps coming, moving the air and I keep picking up on it and tuning myself to its variations, and it just never gets still or quiet enough for me to stop the resonance based on however she vibrates. And I feel like I really need to get still, to stop resonating at all for a moment, so I can re-orient and pick up the resonance from this other arena. But that state of stillness isn't available right now, and I feel almost caught in the loud/strong vibrations she (to my perception) projects outward from herself as a matter of how she moves through the world. So I would love to find a way to have things just go truly still for a time, to be able to re-set myself, re-orient. I just can't figure out a way to do it, logistically or otherwise. But this configuration has been wrong all along and for whatever reason now is really beginning to get to me in a way I can't ignore.

I have no idea how much any of this is specific to INFJ-INFP processes and how much is other stuff, though.

 

[Redbone]

I was curious...do you feel like you are highly tuned to her unspoken wants/needs, on alert for them and being very responsible to them? And this is making you tired? Sorry if this is off-base...I found this topic interesting.

 

[RDF]

[MENTION=20789]Werebudgie[/MENTION]:

Your metaphor about the tuning fork and "resonance" is so vague that I've having trouble relating it to any practical situation. The only thing that comes to mind is something along the lines of what Redbone is asking: Are one or both of you expected to read the other's mind (anticipate unspoken wants/needs, etc.)?

That sort of thing might raise issues of co-dependency or enabling (or even something as benign as "urge to merge"), and it might be appropriate to see a marriage counselor together and have the counselor evaluate your interactions.

ETA: What would happen if you were to choose not to "resonate," i.e., if you were to simply tune her out and go about your own business and act blissfully ignorant of anything that hasn't been specifically worked out aloud between the two of you? What effect would that have on your relationship?

 

[Werebudgie]

Your metaphor about the tuning fork and "resonance" is so vague that I've having trouble relating it to any practical situation.

I'm smiling at the comment that you find my metaphor too vague, when for me the internal feel of it is a really powerful sharpening and clarifying tool for my understanding. I'm smiling because this, I think, is one of the broader communication struggles that can happen between INFJs and INFPs. Something about Ni/Ne maybe. Anyway, I hear you that it's too vague and I understand (from the outside) that it would be so.

The only thing that comes to mind is something along the lines of what Redbone is asking: Are one or both of you expected to read the other's mind (anticipate unspoken wants/needs, etc.)?

That sort of thing might raise issues of co-dependency or enabling (or even something as benign as "urge to merge"), and it might be appropriate to see a marriage counselor together and have the counselor evaluate your interactions.

Will think about this and my response to Redbone (which I haven't written yet) will address it one way or another.

ETA: What would happen if you were to choose not to "resonate," i.e., if you were to simply tune her out and go about your own business and act blissfully ignorant of anything that hasn't been specifically worked out aloud between the two of you? What effect would that have on your relationship?

You know, I've been asking myself a version of this question. My answers so far: I think there is some amount of this that I can do, and have already actually started to do after identifying and articulating that metaphor I used. But I also think there are limits to my ability to do this - limits that have their source in how I experience things. One set of limits comes from my inability to compartmentalize and/or simply ignore some aspects of my surroundings. I suspect that has something to do with Ni-dom (perceiving-dominance) + Fe-aux, though it could be something else about me specifically. I read something somewhere on this site (I can't remember exactly who or what thread) where an introvert. quite possibly INFJ, was saying that s/he couldn't have real alone time sitting next to a loved one, because some part of her/his attention is always aware of, and at some level "reading," that other person. Another set of possible limits comes from the depths of that metaphor I used, and so my thoughts may simply be more vagueness from your perspective and I'll leave that aside. As for what effect your suggested practice might have on the relationship, I really don't know.

 

[RDF]

I'm smiling at the comment that you find my metaphor too vague, when for me the internal feel of it is a really powerful sharpening and clarifying tool for my understanding. I'm smiling because this, I think, is one of the broader communication struggles that can happen between INFJs and INFPs. Something about Ni/Ne maybe. […]

Fine. But by the same token, here is what I'm seeing coming from your end:

Earlier along, you placed the source of the problem with your wife:

[...] it's like I can't keep up with the strength and powerful gravitational pull of her terms, which she seems to strongly project, without speaking them [...]

You said it was specifically a problem with INFPs and that INFJs feel like they have to do everything on the INFP's terms. But in your latest post you seem to be placing the problem with your own Fe:

[...] where an introvert. quite possibly INFJ, was saying that s/he couldn't have real alone time sitting next to a loved one, because some part of her/his attention is always aware of, and at some level "reading," that other person.[...]

To you, these two descriptions might indeed amount to one and the same thing insofar as you "resonate" with your wife. But I think the distinction deserves to be pinned down better. After all, you're painting this situation as a pretty dire state of affairs:

[...]This whole situation keeps me subtly but powerfully off balance in a way that's becoming increasingly not-okay for me. I'm getting increasingly soul-tired from this process. At this point it almost sickens me sometimes, to feel so off-balance, like some aspect of my survival requires me to not keep being in this state of disorientation.[...]

Here's how I see it: It's like you say that your wife is always yelling at you, and her constant yelling is driving you crazy. But on closer examination, you're not sure if your wife is really yelling or if she is talking normally and you just have very sensitive hearing.

I understand that you Ni-Doms like to see things your own way. But that sort of thing needs to be pinned down a little better, I think.

 

[Werebudgie]

I was curious...do you feel like you are highly tuned to her unspoken wants/needs, on alert for them and being very responsible to them? And this is making you tired? Sorry if this is off-base...I found this topic interesting.

Answers/musings behind the spoiler:

I keep going back and forth on this. On one hand, I could say yes to your question and it would be relatively accurate. On the other hand, it's not quite accurate, like something in how you describe it is missing or just different enough from my actual situation to be significant. I wish I could pin down whatever is missing, different, whatever that is. When I think about it, the one thing that comes to mind is a discussion we had about our respective organic landscapes. This is from another thread:

I've often referred to Ni, my dominant function, as my "organic landscape" - it's the perceptual world that is most like home to me, that makes the most sense to me, in which I feel most comfortable moving.

A couple of months ago, my INFP partner and I had a sort of clarity moment about one difference between Ni as an organic landscape for me, and Fi as an organic landscape for her.

It started as I was trying to describe how Ni is a perceiving function. I was saying that the landscape of my Ni perception exists as real whether or not I am in it or even whether or not I exist. This landscape is not some personal reality I have created (as Ni is all too often misunderstood to be). It is, instead, an existing "place" that I perceive from my specific subjective vangate point in it. It exists. I do not create it. I just move and perceive within it.

I said: in this way, the landscape of my Ni perception is like the city we live in now. It existed before I moved here. It would exist if I moved away. It would exist if I never existed at all. I haven't created it. Instead, I move within it and perceive it from my specific positioning and location in it.

And my INFP partner's eyes lit up and she said (paraphrased): "Oh! I get it! I am my own organic landscape!" She talked about how she has traveled all over the world (which she literally has) and in her travels and in her life, she always carries her own inner "home" (organic landscape) with her wherever she goes, that's how Fi works as her organic landscape for her. Fi is like her personal ground - she said she's like an island that provides herself with her own ground to stand on.

As a Ni-dom, I am inside a landscape that I have not created but that I perceive ... I am one little bit moving within this huge landscape, perceiving from my specific vantage point.

In contrast, as a Fi-dom, my INFP partner IS her own organic landscape. It wouldn't exist without her because it is created by her. She is her own home.

I can be pulled out my organic landscape. In order for me to get centered again in that situation, I have to move myself back into that landscape, re-position myself - move myself from alien landscapes back into my organic Ni landscape. She would never need to do that because she is never NOT in her organic landscape. She is in her organic landscape by definition, all the time, because she IS her own organic landscape.

One result of this difference between Ni-dom and Fi-dom is that we have, without always understanding why, defaulted to moving together in her organic landscape. Because I can be pulled out of my own organic landscape and she can't be pulled out of hers (her organic landscape is made up of her, while mine isn't made up of me).

So our mutual meeting place defaulted without explicit discussion or decision to her Fi world. It did so because that's where she is and is made of what she is, and she can't leave it, is is made of her self - while I can move my little self between different external landscapes, even though I am most well when I center my perception in the landscape of my Ni perception

So I guess I would say: I feel like in order to interact with her, it's like this persistent (and often but not always unspoken) condition that we meet on her ground, on her terms, at the most basic and foundational level. And this space is not organic to me - it's her territory, so to speak - and its rules and physics don't organically make a whole lot of sense to me. So I feel like I'm moving inside an environment that has rules and physics I don't really understand, and I'm always trying to figure out how things work in order to be able to interact inside of this space. I'm actually pretty good at figuring things out even when they're kind of alien to me ... but in this case, I feel like every time I figure one thing out, something else pops up that doesn't make sense to me but that I have to deal with in order to make even basic sense of what's going on. And it feels like a this never-ending cycle. So it's from this context that I could answer yes to your question, but that answer is only accurate if understood with this context in mind.

I don't know, Redbone, does that even have anything to do with your question and interest in the topic?

 

[Werebudgie]

[MENTION=204]FLD[/MENTION], at this point I think the root problem is in the dynamic itself. Meaning: I can't tell if she's metaphorically yelling or I'm metaphorically oversensitive to sound. Maybe the answer depends on what point of view you take in considering the situation. I can speak from my subjective point of view, but that's what it is for me. Like - what I am/do/perceive is normal for me, and what she is/does/perceives is normal for her, so the source of the problem depends on the vantage point. I know Te might look for universal standards (and I think that you mentioned somewhere else having pretty strongly developed your Te in a professional context?). But I really don't know that I can pin it down to one or the other per your comment.

Also:

And I know it sounds dire. We made some pretty serious uninformed mistakes in how we started out in this relationship, those mistakes created lots of challenges for us that wouldn't have been such a big deal had we not made the mistakes we did, and we've had a lot to take apart given all of that. Now that things have sort of calmed down in other ways as we've learned over the years, the very deepest stuff comes closer and closer to surfacing. I know I can't flinch away from this, from how I'm feeling as I described it. I also know that the direness of how I'm feeling it is most likely an indication of how deep this goes. It will either resolve or be unresolvable, whatever the truth may be. We do love each other very much.

I understand that you Ni-Doms like to see things your own way. But that sort of thing needs to be pinned down a little better, I think.

Yes, I am an unrepentant Ni-dom in this regard (I can't seem to find the "unrepentant Ni-dom" emoticon) Speaking of that, I bet my answer to Redbone won't be particularly useful from your perspective (you know, maybe you could just sort of imagine that Ni-dom emoticon here ....). In case it's not obvious, though, I do appreciate your comments.

 

[RDF]

Yes, I am an unrepentant Ni-dom in this regard (I can't seem to find the "unrepentant Ni-dom" emoticon) Speaking of that, I bet my answer to Redbone won't be particularly useful from your perspective (you know, maybe you could just sort of imagine that Ni-dom emoticon here ....). In case it's not obvious, though, I do appreciate your comments.

Okay, that's fine if you still need to work out on whose end the balance of the problem lies. With Ni-Doms, I know that the best thing to do is back off and let them work out such things by themselves.

As for your comment in the spoiler: I think that item is something more substantive. Long-standing, unresolved problems can become a big issue. You can create firewalls around old problems for a while, but eventually the firewalls start breaking down and those old problems increasingly bleed out into all the other daily interactions. In that kind of a dynamic, I agree an INFP can be a royal pain in the ass. My INFP ex and I got into that situation toward the end of our marriage.

My ex was a hoarder, and we danced around that problem for a decade while I was still at work. As long as I was at work, I basically surrendered the house to her and her clutter, IOW I enabled her with her problem. But as my retirement approached, we both increasingly dug in our heels. We knew a clash was coming: There wasn't room for both me and her clutter in that house. It made for lots of sparring and tense moments on all sides, even well before my retirement.

So yeah, from my experience you kind of want to get those old issues addressed as quickly as possible; if you let them come to a head by themselves, it's going to be messy.

Oh well, enough advice from me. Good luck, and I hope you get that stuff worked out.

 

[Redbone]

Answers/musings behind the spoiler:

I keep going back and forth on this. On one hand, I could say yes to your question and it would be relatively accurate. On the other hand, it's not quite accurate, like something in how you describe it is missing or just different enough from my actual situation to be significant. I wish I could pin down whatever is missing, different, whatever that is. When I think about it, the one thing that comes to mind is a discussion we had about our respective organic landscapes. This is from another thread:



So I guess I would say: I feel like in order to interact with her, it's like this persistent (and often but not always unspoken) condition that we meet on her ground, on her terms, at the most basic and foundational level. And this space is not organic to me - it's her territory, so to speak - and its rules and physics don't organically make a whole lot of sense to me. So I feel like I'm moving inside an environment that has rules and physics I don't really understand, and I'm always trying to figure out how things work in order to be able to interact inside of this space. I'm actually pretty good at figuring things out even when they're kind of alien to me ... but in this case, I feel like every time I figure one thing out, something else pops up that doesn't make sense to me but that I have to deal with in order to make even basic sense of what's going on. And it feels like a this never-ending cycle. So it's from this context that I could answer yes to your question, but that answer is only accurate if understood with this context in mind.

I don't know, Redbone, does that even have anything to do with your question and interest in the topic?

Yes, it does. This makes sense to me.

This may sound a little rough, so I apologize in advance if it does. Or unfinished...it is my way to toss things out there and do the refining out of my head.

I'm very close to an INFJ young lady. I see her doing something like what you describe (if I'm reading this close enough). She will shift in order to fit. It's not usually anything radical but it frequently happens. I mean shifting for external harmony or common ground. For her, it may mean 'abandoning' a position for the sake of harmony with me or her brothers. From her perspective, it's rough (she's the only Fe-user in her close circle) because she feels like she's doing something for us. From my perspective, it's irritating because I never asked her to do this and now I feel like I'm supposed to be grateful for something I never asked for. And it can give a slippy feel. I do not understand her need to find agreement/external harmony before we can proceed in a discussion of things. To me, even the assumption that this should be done raises some hackles. You saying "her terms and grounds" sounds very much like this. And you're right, it's natural to her but she's not going to see it like that...I have a hard time with it...but maybe you do because the issue is not being met on "our grounds and terms"? Are you saying you're feeling resentment because you feel like you're doing something for her, for your relationship and she can't even bother to do the same? Or even acknowledge that it's going on? That's what it seems like I'm hearing but I could be wrong about it.

At the same time, I understand the exhaustion that can result from this. As an Ne-dom, I often feel a strong pull to "respond". Nobody is asking me, but it's just my natural way of being as an ENFP. I can feel exhausted and put upon because of this and place the blame on others instead of just ignoring the (mainly unspoken) pleas, wants, and needs of others. It wasn't the other person(s), it was me not being able to deal with the anxiety of not responding and my own identification with being a responsive person to those I'm close to. But I stopped that mess. It's good boundary making and necessary in a healthy relationship. It kinda sounds like this is part of the problem and if something's not done, it's not going to end well. Resentment will eat through any bond. FLD mentioned this in his post.

Your INFP may be more understanding of you not responding in the manner that you have...hell, she may not even notice that you're doing what you see yourself doing because Fi doesn't work that way at all.

Do you have an examples of how you would prefer your relationship to be?

 

[Werebudgie]

Thank you for the reply, Redbone. I understand that you're tossing things out there and doing the refining out of your head.

So. I'm actually not saying I'm:

feeling resentment because you feel like you're doing something for her, for your relationship and she can't even bother to do the same? Or even acknowledge that it's going on? That's what it seems like I'm hearing but I could be wrong about it.

I don't feel resentment and I don't feel like I'm doing something for her. The way I see it, resentment and the rest of what you describe is is located at the emotional narrative layer, which to my perception lives kind of at the surface of things (if that makes sense). This current gut sense that something's not right for me in the dynamic I describe is a far more visceral response - a body-level Ni-Se visceral response that operates in me much like sense perception operates. For me it's not about how I feel she or I should be in this relationship. I don't feel put upon or anything like that, and I don't feel like by adapting I have done something that she should reciprocate or at least acknowledge or be grateful for. And I don't have an identification/identity around myself as a responsive person.

And we've already hashed through the layer of Fe-aux/Fi-dom differences you refer to. I feel like whatever I'm sensing, experiencing and tracking here goes deeper than what you describe (though to be clear, I appreciate you attending and thinking out loud as you have!). But this is probably me in the phase where my gut sense/visceral perception doesn't yet have conscious articulation and I'm kind of rooting around or something at the conceptual/conscious level. Or maybe I already know, below words but more clearly, but am not going to commit verbally to what I know because I want to see more visible data first, now that I have some deep visceral sense of what to attend to and what to shift.

----------------------------

And [MENTION=204]FLD[/MENTION]: thank you. What you say about giving Ni-doms space to work it out for ourselves is true, at least for me. It's an odd combination of seeking dialogue plus space, and I would imagine not easy to recognize. Thank you for your comments and your good wishes.

 

[Redbone]

I don't feel resentment and I don't feel like I'm doing something for her. The way I see it, resentment and the rest of what you describe is is located at the emotional narrative layer, which to my perception lives kind of at the surface of things (if that makes sense). This current gut sense that something's not right for me in the dynamic I describe is a far more visceral response - a body-level Ni-Se visceral response that operates in me much like sense perception operates. For me it's not about how I feel she or I should be in this relationship. I don't feel put upon or anything like that, and I don't feel like by adapting I have done something that she should reciprocate or at least acknowledge or be grateful for. And I don't have an identification/identity around myself as a responsive person.

But this is probably me in the phase where my gut sense/visceral perception doesn't yet have conscious articulation and I'm kind of rooting around or something at the conceptual/conscious level. Or maybe I already know, below words but more clearly, but am not going to commit verbally to what I know because I want to see more visible data first, now that I have some deep visceral sense of what to attend to and what to shift.

Ah, okay. I see. Ha...out of my depth with Ni/Se here! This isn't something I don't understand well at all but see it in my INFJ. It doesn't seem to be a process that can be hurried.

I appreciate you answering my question! I hope things can work out.

 

[EvangelineEmma]

Warning: In crafting the post below, I am not accusing anyone on this thread of having done or posted anything wrong, nor am I trying to offer a personal attack toward either INFPs or INFJs. I am simply stressing a long held opinion over something that has truly irritated me regarding people using the MBTI system to find their true selves and relate to others.

Okay... that being said, here I go.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if the person claims to be either INFP or INFJ- it really depends on the individual's actual personality. Classifying yourself as an mbti type does not mean that you are a part of an exclusive club that somehow distinguishes you from the rest, but rather serves as a tool to better explain who you are as a person based upon particular interaction patterns or ways of viewing the world. I don't enjoy assuming all INFPs are "sensitive, melodramatic idealists who scoff at the rest of their corporate, consumer world", nor do I enjoy thinking of all INFJs as being neurotic psychoanalysts who think they know a person based upon a certain vibe, before truly getting to know them (and I say this as an INFJ myself). People are people, and they will be whoever they want to be. Some people are healthier or kinder than others, some are egocentric assholes who can't identify with any perspective beyond their own.

I have met both types of INFPs- the quiet, empathetic listeners who make great friends and truly listen to you with an open ear and never rush to make judgments or reach assumptions over people; and the truly irritating self-absorbed "artists" who think the world is out to get them and interpret any form of remark or criticism as an attack against their identity, often accusing you of things that were never even there and rushing to end friendships after the first disagreement, once they believe you simply don't fit in properly within their idealistic inner world. I am sure there are many other forms of the INFP person out there beyond these as well, as even the types of people mentioned above may serve as "black or white" stereotypes of the typical "rosy, optimistic" INFP against the dark, brooding type 4 INFP. Heck, some INFPs can even surprise you with an uncanny logical side that may lead you to mistaken them for an INTP (although this might deviate from the point I'm trying to make).

People vary in different forms, whether they happen to belong to the same MBTI type or not, and even if you've met one hypersensitive INFP who drove you nuts with their mood swings, or one INFJ who seemed too judgmental or single-minded for your taste, one can't automatically assume that the two types will never be able to relate to the other and form a lasting friendship. Both types have their strengths and weakness and perceive their world in altering ways, but so long as similar values and opinions are held beneath said differences and both types are genuinely good, well-meaning people, there is no reason to fear wanting to initiate a bond between the two or stereotype either type into a biased mold that doesn't even reflect who the individual truly is. I respect INFPs for their incredible depth of empathy and emotion and how self-assured they seem with their own identities, just as I respect INFJs for their intuitiveness and ability grasp meanings quickly, motivating themselves resolutely with their ideals and insights.

 

[animenagai]

A problem with INFX's is that they can be quite passive-aggressive, and can't describe each other's flaws without saying 'but I still love you' at the end.

I kid, I kid.

 

[EvangelineEmma]

A problem with INFX's is that they can be quite passive-aggressive, and can't describe each other's flaws without saying 'but I still love you' at the end.

I kid, I kid.

I don't blame you for feeling this way, as I myself might've demonstrated some of these passive-aggressive tendencies to a lesser extent in the past. It's perplexing in a way when you wish to avoid conflict and try your best to prevent yourself from appearing hostile or even belligerent towards other people, yet feel as though you might explode unless you allow some of the negative feelings you've been bottling up inside to unwind in the most subtle ways. I feel this is particularly a point of confliction for INFJs enneagram 4 or 6, as their auxiliary Fe tends to want to maintain peace and concensus throughout their environment and is sensitive to tension among others, while the 4's desire for individuality, depth of emotion, and exclusion from others can lead to their nonetheless expressing their anger or discomfort in very subtle ways as they further isolate themselves from others and refuse to express what is going on, almost (from my personal experience) anticipating for the other person to be the one to approach them and experience guilt over whatever harm or offense they inflicited upon them. I can guarantee that it's not healthy.

In a similar way, I feel enneagram 6 (especially 6w5) can exhibit many of these same tendencies, yet are often prone to being more reactive and easier to trigger during times of conflict. Enneagram 4 wants to feel special and seeks a deep connection that almost makes them feel particular or exclusive toward said person, and is more likely to beat themselves up from the inside out as their self-esteem falters and they carry everyone's weight on their shoulders (although the passive-aggression you mentioned may also be some sort sort of indirect mechanism to silently inform others that they are hurt and in need of comfort, in order to garner concern and attention from others); enneagram 6 however may or may not frequently feel like a mess of nerves as they struggle to predict the circumstances to which they are being exposed and drive themselves crazy with excessive analysis of the situation, which causes them to seem passive-aggressive in a more direct mannerism than does enneagram 4 (perhaps by expressing verbal sarcasm or seeming unresponsive and laconic unless they are responding toward another person's questions or conversations with snide, hostile remarks).

Conflict disturbs the 6's vision of what it means to feel safe, so they may naturally be more predisposed than perhaps enneagram 4 to act somewhat more aggressively as a form of impulse, since this may be the sole way they can actually verbalize the frustration they are truly feeling over the lack of control they are experiencing throughout said situation and confusion over what has gone wrong among themselves and the other person involved. While enneagram 4 relies on itself for the answers as it tries to craft its own sense of meaning and authentic identity, the may be more prone to seeming passive aggressive through increasing isolation from others as they brood in a corner and anticipate the approach of the persn who will lift up their spirits and celebrate their uniqueness, which the 6 is almost instincitvely ambivalent toward toward authority and hesistant to trust what seems unfamiliar, possibly making them more likely to openly express episodes of anger and blame an outside source, or perhaps even the surrounding world, for the feelings that lie beyond their control, scrutinizing others for seeming incompetent in maintaing the stability the seek from their environment and finding quick offense once the trust the once confided onto another person has been broken in some way (hence the infamous INFJ "door slam").

I didn't mean to make this a debate over enneagram types, but I just felt as though maybe this might answer your question as to why INFJs seem so passive-aggressive at times regarding certain types of conflict or misunderstanding . I might eventually create a post involving INFPs as well, since I considered myself to be one not so long ago and do still share many similarities with the type.

 

[YukariOro]

I've noticed a number of INFPs express that they find INFJs difficult to be friends with. I have ended up knowing/being friends with a lot of INFPs, but also can see where some of our differences are more glaring than one might think at first. On here, I find I get along very well with a lot of INFPs and have had interesting/useful conversations in better understanding them.

Where do you find those areas of contention lie? What do you find hardest to understand about the other type?

Obviously Fi/Fe is a problem for many...

I'm personally an INFP, and there is one thing I've noticed when reading posts about people disliking INFPs. Most people don't seem to be able to tell the difference between dysfunction due to other causes, and what is caused by the INFP personality itself.

Example: I used to be very much the way a lot of people in here describe their worst INFP friends...thing was, I grew up in an abusive and dysfunctional household, my parents grew up in the same, and so on for generations. I learned to be passive aggressive because I was taught that being assertive would be penalized by my abusers. I wasn't passive aggressive because I was INFP, but instead because my parents learned to be passive aggressive, their parents learned to be passive aggressive, the basic cycle of abuse. All those bad habits were passed down to me, because they were the only ones my parents knew, hence the only ones I knew. And neither of my parents are INFP to my knowledge, and they don't understand a lot of my creative side really as a result as well. (That was just a side note lol.)

Anyhow, a lot of the negative traits I see attributed to INFPs could just as easily be attributed to experiencing what I experienced growing up, a dysfunctional home life. It took tons of therapy, for me to adjust and learn to be assertive.

1.) I don't have a problem with criticism if it's constructive. I have been working off and on, on a Graphic Arts degree, regular classroom critiques of your art will get you used to criticism fast lol. I do have a problem with people who name call, who assume that they know what i mean and lash out at me for assuming when I wasn't (this has happened to me before lol.), and well, if you can't tell me why I suck, it's not going to be much use to me and I won't have the information I need to improve myself, so that's really your loss in the end.

2.) I am not a door mat. It does take a lot to make me angry and I love to help others, sometimes I overdo it. But treat me badly, and show me that you're toxic to my life, and I will disconnect and you will never see me again. I have to take care of me, some people must be shut out for my own sanity. Yes, i hate rejection and I do tend to take it personally, but I won't let fear of rejection stop me from what I need to do for me. The thing is, I'm aware that I take what others say personally at times, and that awareness leaves me usually wise to whether the problem is me or them, or maybe both of us. That said, unstable and dysfunctional INFPs are probably some of the more dangerous people to anger, having grown up in a physically abusive family, you can imagine some of the stuff I did before I learned better and learned to let go of the anger inside me, and learned better self-control.

3.) My belief system is far from rigid. I was raised Mormon and after about 10 years of careful study and consideration, I finally decided it wasn't for me, and had them remove my name from their church rolls. Honestly, I don't care if your religion is right or wrong tho, that is true, as an INFP I don't care so much about being right or wrong, so long as it's right for me, I'm happy. And the way I consider it, everyone has different needs in this world, one can't expect a One Size Fits All for everything and everyone, because humanity is much to diverse to readily accept that.

4.) I am skeptical, I also tend to enjoy an eclectic belief system, but I test everything out first, to see if it works for me, if it makes me happy and satisfied with life. If it doesn't, i toss it. Again, the whole One Size Doesn't Always Fit All. I have a healthy dose of skepticism especially with Metaphysical stuff that I like to research, especially after I tested out fortune telling with friends and discovered I could deduce a lot of what to say, based on their body language lol.

5.) As for anti-social, it took experts in my teens teaching me a course of Social Skills for me to learn how to be better socially. I'm still not great at it, probably because I am a bit of a loner, but it hasn't stopped me from leading groups in online games effectively, I just need me time. Thing is, one of the things that course taught me, was if you ask someone about themselves, you can get them talking usually, because everyone likes to talk about themselves. I've found it to be very much true.

6.) I do have a funny bone, and I'm not cold. In fact, I've found that being silly and using humor can actually get people interacting around me, and I've taken advantage of that.

7.) Yes I do suffer from depression sometimes, but that's not a bad thing, any more than being happy is a bad emotion. It's just quite simply an emotion, period. It's only when I ignore and neglect myself when I'm depressed that it becomes dangerous.

8.) Fact: I'm actually pretty good at problem solving on my own. Yes, INFPs tend to rant a lot, but there's actually a logical reason for that. If I don't vent off all that emotion clouding my thoughts and making me anxious, there is absolutely no way I can calm down to logically think up a solution. My ranting doesn't mean, however, that I need the problem solved for me, or that I want answers. If I want suggestions, i will ask for them, otherwise, please, just let me rant til I feel calmer. And truth of the matter, I usually find my answers in the very rants you probably just hated having to listen to lol.

None of this though came naturally for me, especially given the home environment that I grew up in. And yes, I do still have my dysfunctional moments, but the important than is I am aware and take responsibility for them when they happen. There's far more that goes into making an INFP into who they are tho, than just the letters INFP, and I think a lot of people fail to realize that, and that does bothers me, I'm afraid. Because being passive aggressive for example, I don't feel is a trait of INFP, I feel it's a learned behavior. Someone, somewhere, in their life, probably made it feel unsafe for them to be anything but passive aggressive.

9.) And finally I don't have a problem with debating with others, I actually like debating. Where I have a problem is when the neutral debate turns into an argument with the other party trying to force me to conform to their views. Honest debate isn't about making people conform, but broadening your own horizons, I feel.

I think perhaps from what comments I've read from those who identify themselves as INFJ is that too often they fall into that, my way is the only way mindset, and I left that mindset behind when I left organized religion. I want to learn and experiment, I want to question, and I mean question everything. If that makes me happy, then I'm all good with it, but my life isn't about making your life happy or satisfying your need to be right, it's about me and satisfying my needs. If that comes across as selfish, I'm sorry, but there comes a time when out of self-preservation, everyone needs to be selfish at times.

Not entirely sure that answered your question, but hoping it did to some degree. =D