[NF] NFs with NFs

[sculpting]

To the Fe vs Fi debate: Whether a person will care or not has nothing to do with whether they are using Fe or Fi primarily. These are just theoretical constructs. In reality I see most people with a firm grasp on Fe have a firm grasp on Fi, and vice versa, in terms of connecting with others. I got along with my NFP brother and father better than my FJ mother and sister since as long as I can remember. They definitely loved and understood me and I they. I think the capacity for caring and understanding transcends MBTI.

I dunno Lauren.. Do we really understand the person or do we accept them and then make assumptions about their intent based upon incorrect interpretations?

I actually much like INFJs. ISFJs can be disabling in organizational structures but I love them for the fact that they do care.

Fe doms are very alien to me-especially ENFJs. I am learning Fe but it is so very different from Fi.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I dunno Lauren.. Do we really understand the person or do we accept them and then make assumptions about their intent based upon incorrect interpretations?

Maybe some people do that. Which is why I say the capacity for understanding transcends MBTI. If I really care about a person I will take the time to understand them and not make incorrect assumptions. Over time, even if I didn't initially, I will truly understand them. This goes for two Fe dom/aux's trying to reach an understanding, as well an Fe dom/aux and Fi dom/aux. My closest friends tend to be ENxPs...I doubt they would say I don't really understand and am only making assumptions.

Fe doms are very alien to me-especially ENFJs. I am learning Fe but it is so very different from Fi.

What don't you understand?

 

[SheWaits]

If Fi users aren't giving you these things because they simply don't care (which btw goes against the "very nature" of Fi), then maybe you need another FJ. Or just choose people based on what they DO give you.

Enter "communication". It's there for when you don't always atuomatically understand the other party. Most people don't read minds.

It's obvious you know a lot about me, although your earlier post mentions that you've only observed FJs. Anyone who has really experienced an FJ would never use the word "stoic" to describe one. That would be TJ, and a true TJ would take that as a compliment. Stoic caregiver is an oxymoron. You might do well to go back and study your functions so you can type people correctly.

I find it interesting that you're obviously labeling people whom you've "observed;" however, you don't even seem to be sure of your own type.

I do see one statement you made that I can agree with, and that's the inference that I would be happier with another FJ.

 

[Moiety]

It's obvious you know a lot about me, although your earlier post mentions that you've only observed FJs. Anyone who has really experienced an FJ would never use the word "stoic" to describe one.

They might show their pain in some forms but I know quite a few FJs that will never overtly complain about their situation. Yes, they can be very stoic from what I've experienced. I know plenty of FJs. In my core family alone there are at least 3.

That would be TJ, and a true TJ would take that as a compliment. Stoic caregiver is an oxymoron. You might do well to go back and study your functions so you can type people correctly.

Stoic caregiver is definitely not an oxymoron. I've know plenty of FJs who dedicated their very lives to helping others end endured it despite mentally and physically drained the whole time. And I didn't use stoic as an insult so much as acknowledging a fact. They would do better to rest their Fe once in a while and think about themselves.

I find it interesting that you're obviously labeling people whom you've "observed;" however, you don't even seem to be sure of your own type.

I find it interesting you seem to think I'm not sure of my own type.

 

[Amargith]

Actually I've always wanted to ask how you experience Fe. I mean, I'm quite good at Fe myself, but I use it as a tool and always as an aid to NeFi. But I don't *feel* it. I don't feel the motivation of Fe as it is just a tool. Whereas Fi I live and breathe..couldn't imagine living without it. So I'd love to know how you live and breathe Fe..what that's like.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Actually I've always wanted to ask how you experience Fe. I mean, I'm quite good at Fe myself, but I use it as a tool and always as an aid to NeFi. But I don't *feel* it. I don't feel the motivation of Fe as it is just a tool. Whereas Fi I live and breathe..couldn't imagine living without it. So I'd love to know how you live and breathe Fe..what that's like.

Is this directed towards me? I would tell you how I experience Fe, but I doubt it is very much different from how you experience Fi...in addition to that I find it difficult if not impossible to separate Ni and Fe.

 

[Amargith]

At any Fe user

I've found it to be very different from Fi. As for seperating, that isn't necessary, if it isn't possible
I guess Ne and Fi is hard to seperate as well, come to think of it..

 

[Moiety]

At any Fe user

I've found it to be very different from Fi. As for seperating, that isn't necessary, if it isn't possible
I guess Ne and Fi is hard to seperate as well, come to think of it..

I don't personally. I think Ne (as opposed to Se) just makes it even more introspective and mind the different possibilities and implications.

 

[Amargith]

I dunno, Sy...Ne constantly feeds Fi info to judge, to bounce of, to look at from all angles which then again requires Ne to conceive and thinks of those angles...I'm much more aware of the fact that I'm using Fi than I am of the fact that I'm using Ne..so I'm not sure if I can seperate the two coz I could just not be aware of the fact that I'm using Ne without realizing it.

 

[Moiety]

I dunno, Sy...Ne constantly feeds Fi info to judge, to bounce of, to look at from all angles which then again requires Ne to conceive and thinks of those angles...I'm much more aware of the fact that I'm using Fi than I am of the fact that I'm using Ne..so I'm not sure if I can seperate the two coz I could just not be aware of the fact that I'm using Ne without realizing it.

I see Ne as breadth and Fi as depth. When focusing on a particular issue I can definitely see Fi as more apparent. But yeah, the use of auxiliary is always more conscious if you ask me.

Hmm I think I do know what Fi is though. And I can clearly differentiate it from Ne. I use Ne to constantly rebuild my values, but I also know the criteria they need to conform to (Fi). Fi is simply congruence irrespective of context.

 

[SheWaits]

Actually I've always wanted to ask how you experience Fe. I mean, I'm quite good at Fe myself, but I use it as a tool and always as an aid to NeFi. But I don't *feel* it. I don't feel the motivation of Fe as it is just a tool. Whereas Fi I live and breathe..couldn't imagine living without it. So I'd love to know how you live and breathe Fe..what that's like.

My personal experience of Fe is that it always asks the question, "How will this affect [insert name(s)]?" It seldom cares about its own gratification, except that it finds gratification in knowing that everyone in its circle of influence is happy and safe. Fe feels a genuine interest in other people.

When overworked, depressed, or going through some other stressful situation, Fe can feel taken advantage of. At that point, it would like to fall into the arms of a kindred soul and just rest for a little while, re-charge, and then return to its normal activities. Doesn't ask for much, but it needs what it needs.

 

[Amargith]

I'm familiar with that question..it follows right after 'how do I feel about this?' with Fi, though it's likely more formulated as 'And how must s/he feel in all this considering this and this and this is going on?'

I also find that Fe seems to look more, like Te, for a workable solution, a way to 'fix' the situation and get things moving again (What does this person need?) . Whereas Fi seems to be like Ti and wants to know the details and how it all works (How does this person feel and why?). The thing is, to me, that makes Fe seem colder than Fi because it seems to be more...geared towards making things function instead of the person? Although I know that's not how you feel it. So I'm kinda wondering if you could explain that to me.


Sy: good points.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I also find that Fe seems to look more, like Te, for a workable solution, a way to 'fix' the situation and get things moving again (What does this person need?) . Whereas Fi seems to be like Ti and wants to know the details and how it all works (How does this person feel and why?). The thing is, to me, that makes Fe seem colder than Fi because it seems to be more...geared towards making things function instead of the person? Although I know that's not how you feel it. So I'm kinda wondering if you could explain that to me.

That's why I said it would be hard to separate Fe from Ni. "Why?" is something that Ni asks about everything, it looks in and tries to understand how things work. I don't think I ever use Fe as a separate, isolated function, it would need to be filtered through Ni and that changes it quite a bit.

 

[TopherRed]

Fe is all about social ettiqute and emotional protocol. Beyond that, it's hard to describe without dragging the other functions in for ENFJ. It's like balancing people as both resources and soul mates; both as utility and as family. Fi users have a hard time with this concept before they understand the differences between good Fe and bad (immature) Fe.

There are two types of "Bad" Fe Users-
Impotently "Bad"-
1. The Ignorant and Abused. Those who cannot control themselves or their image in their social environment. I was like this up and until Jr. High...sense I lacked the strong "sense of self" that comes with Fi, I chameleoned my way around, which didn't quite work as I was always a loud, boisterous child. Abuse victims may also suffer from this--those who are shut down to the point where they can no longer alter their image in society or their viewpoints of themselves.

Morally/Skillfully "Bad"-2. Manipulators. As a result of abuse, bad moral compasses growing up, etc, many Fe users utilize their ability to control social situations to their own advantage. There are bad manipulators (skilled), who leave a wake of relational destruction in their path, and good manipulators, of whom, you probably will have little knowledge of their taking advantage of you. Their Fe is used to help themselves. This applies to both ENFJs and ESFJs.

Good Fe Users (Benevolence)-
These neither allow themselves to be manipulated, nor do they manipulate in the negative sense. They do have control of their own image in the social sphere (they use their influence and entertain with Fe to maintain their image), and they do use any influence they have over people for the societal good, rather than for themselves, strictly. It's basically a system of social reciprocity; we help people, and we use our "pull" with people to help others (sometimes for a repeat of the cycle, sometimes it's a selfless act). Some say that's selfish, but we all give each other things, and to some degree, we all feel greatful and want to help each other in return. ExFJs are aware of this principle, and the healthier ones use it to create a better society for everybody (themselves included).

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Fe is all about social ettiqute and emotional protocol. Beyond that, it's hard to describe without dragging the other functions in for ENFJ. It's like balancing people as both resources and soul mates; both as utility and as family.

Is that what it means to you? That is not what it means to me. I've long since believe there is a difference in functions depending on their hierarchy, i.e. dominant Fe is expressed differently from secondary Fe. But is it about social etiquette really, or is etiquette a side effect of caring about others' feelings?

 

[TopherRed]

You're right. But it's got less to do with caring about others; when our feelings aren't taken into consideration, we cringe like nails on a chalk board, so that becomes how we operate--generally we treat others the way we want to be treated. We need that "proper care and feeding" of our emotions, it's very important to us because not communicating to us with that etiquette causes us pain.

Or at least it hurts me. It's numbed as I've gotten older; I can much more readily deal with abusive NTs and STs.

 

[Lady_X]

They might show their pain in some forms but I know quite a few FJs that will never overtly complain about their situation. Yes, they can be very stoic from what I've experienced. I know plenty of FJs. In my core family alone there are at least 3.



Stoic caregiver is definitely not an oxymoron. I've know plenty of FJs who dedicated their very lives to helping others end endured it despite mentally and physically drained the whole time. And I didn't use stoic as an insult so much as acknowledging a fact. They would do better to rest their Fe once in a while and think about themselves.



I find it interesting you seem to think I'm not sure of my own type.

i completely understand what he means by stoic caregiver. my mother is an infj and one of my best friends who is a mother is as well and i would say that about both of them.

i don't see it as negative at all...it's admirable imo.

 

[SheWaits]

If you have a one on one conversation with an ENFJ or and INFJ, you will feel understood, regardless of your type. NFJs have an innate ability to "lock in" to the other person and accurately see beyond what they're saying. (Myers Briggs' description, not just my own). I've seen both sides of this, being the INFJ who receives the insight and talking with an ENFJ who received the insight about me. It's refreshing.

We have a strong ability to empathize (not to be confused with sympathize). Empathy is understanding and relating to someone, sympathy is feeling sorry for someone. Most people don't want pity, they just want to be heard and understood.

Fe is less in touch with its own feelings and more in touch with the feelings of others. This explains why we can have meltdowns. Our needs can steadily rise without our notice...and then "suddenly," there they are, bigger than life. We're just as surprised as you are when it happens. However, as soon as the situation is confronted and discussed, I personally feel instant relief, if the other person is willing to acknowledge my feelings. They don't have to say that I'm right, they just have to appear to understand.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

If you have a one on one conversation with an ENFJ or and INFJ, you will feel understood, regardless of your type. NFJs have an innate ability to "lock in" to the other person and accurately see beyond what they're saying.

This is not necessarily true. If it were, we wouldn't have threads or comments about how a person feels that their ENFJ or INFJ mother/wife/father/sister/brother/friend doesn't understand them and asking how to better express themselves to be understood. Appearing to understand is quite different from actually understanding.

Fe is less in touch with its own feelings and more in touch with the feelings of others. This explains why we can have meltdowns.

People say this and I wonder about myself because although I'm in touch with the feelings of others, I know plenty well what I want, what I like, what I dislike, etc. Then again the first and only cognitive processes test I took showed Fe and Fi next to equal.

 

[cascadeco]

I also find that Fe seems to look more, like Te, for a workable solution, a way to 'fix' the situation and get things moving again (What does this person need?) . Whereas Fi seems to be like Ti and wants to know the details and how it all works (How does this person feel and why?). The thing is, to me, that makes Fe seem colder than Fi because it seems to be more...geared towards making things function instead of the person? Although I know that's not how you feel it. So I'm kinda wondering if you could explain that to me.

I agree with Lauren Ashley that Ni is also quite interested in the 'Why' and really wanting to understand, on a deep level, the workings and motivations of others and why they feel, act, or think the way they do. For myself, the NiFe probably results in my always finding people 'Interesting'. Not immediately judging, but just being rather fascinated, and even understanding, other peoples' perceptions and way of approaching the world, even if I don't myself hold the views or approach in that way. I think a phrase I often use is...'Huh, that's interesting' - or some form of that phrase.

But, I also kinda relate to Amargith's description of Fe being more driven to a workable solution. It's my push towards closure. I have noticed in myself that while I might for a long while listen to someone, and empathize, etc, I eventually hit a point where I don't want to hear the problem anymore, I want the person to either work on a 'solution' and demonstrate some sort of change or action on their part to solve their problem besides just sitting in their emotions, or I don't want to hear them talk about it anymore. To be clear, this would involve a period of time; weeks or months (and I'm aware the nature of some problems takes years to resolve, and I'm understanding of that). After a period of time, and very much depending on the situation and the person, I will grow impatient and I won't be able to be purely empathetic anymore - I will want the person to move forward. I get tired of just being the listener. I don't know that this is exclusive to Fe, however. I do agree though that Fe is more closure-oriented, in general.

I also understand the 'stoic' concept, and that matches how a couple of my NFJ friends come across.

And I don't personally relate to the social etiquette concept. I mean, I believe in being respectful and tactful, but I'm definitely not a dominant Fe and don't relate to many of the more tangible, Fe-dom aspects of Fe - hostessing, making sure everyone in a group is being attended to, etc.

Edit: I also think there are many dimensions of Fe. Your more tangible, social-etiquette/cultural 'rules' one tends to be what most people associate with Fe, and it is why Fe can get such a bad rep. There's also the dimension of 1:1 interaction with another and how that dynamic works - communication style, *active* listening (something I don't think NFP's do quite so well), questioning, and really attuning yourself to the other person and putting your own beliefs/reactions on the back burner as they don't really apply to how the other person might operate; adjusting communication style as necessary. And, there are other aspects of Fe I'm sure, but those are the two at the forefront of my mind right now.