[ENFJ] ENFJ/ISTP - Clinging to an ideal?

[MmmCrazy]

Hello, I'm a 20-year-old ENFJ and I just need a diary to spew into at the moment.

After being hurt in a previous relationship with an emotionally-abusive INTJ, I decided to swear off romantic relationships for a time and just focus on friendships. This is very hard for me but I found my resolve in the idea of an ideal partner. I wrote down a specific description of a person (perhaps too specific) that had every quality I considered desirable and then told myself not to date anyone else until I find him. One of the qualities that comes to mind is that I'd like a guy who doesn't drink.

Unfortunately, my friendliness attracts way too many romantic interests. (I never thought this would be a problem, the ugly duckling is a story I've always associated myself with!) After feeling awful about turning down some really great guys that just had one or two things wrong with them (i.e. One who drinks only on occasion, or one who keeps inviting me to parties), I started to doubt my ideal. Love is, after all, a give and take, so shouldn't I be bending to meet his needs as well?

I finally gave in and started dating an (DUN DUN DUN) ISTP. He came after me after we randomly spent a night out (bowling! we keep it clean haha) because we were both just completely bored. Soon after we were dating, though for me it was very reluctant at first because I saw a problem with him. He too would go to parties and get drunk, but only with close friends and not very often. I had no sense of any of this typology stuff at the time, and subconsciously tried to start changing him/enforcing my own rules. He was very warm, loving, incredibly patient and didn't want me to change, but when I showed up at one of his friend's 21st birthday parties rather unamused he realized that I was trying to put him in a box. He immediately turned cold and got rid of me.

I was heartbroken. He had been so warm and patient that I couldn't understand what had brought about this sudden change. Months went by without seeing him and I finally realized that he has to go out and party and be his wild ISTP self in order to function, and that I was cruel to ever try to enforce rules on him. I also realized (because his friends had told me) that he NEVER let people in romantically, and that I was very special to him. This further broke my heart because I realized what I'd done wrong.

I expected never to see him again, but as fate would have it he keeps coming back into my life. At first he was very excited to see me again, which confused me because I was still under the impression that he hated me. Eventually we struck up a conversation and I felt like he was really opening up to me again. After a few weeks apart we met up again at a social gathering but he pretty much ignored me and was laughing and talking with other girls. I guess he's moved on. This saddened me again, but THE NEXT DAY, I realized I'm back to having a guys on my tail again, two of which happen to be ISTPs. (Whoops, no time to feel lonely for the ENFJ... but I still do...)

Now I'm confused. I know what I did wrong in a relationship with an ISTP, so should I use that knowledge to pursue one of these guys? (Both of which drink, but only socially... pfhaha why can't I win) Or... do I just ignore them both and stick to my ideal?

I kind of get this feeling that I get a lot more accomplished just by ignoring romance and being everybody's friend. It's true that when I'm in a romantic relationship I'm not as open and loving with *everybody* because I'm trying to focus on one person. But it's hard to ignore romance! Especially when so many people come after me. So do I choose to be alone and serve everyone or pick one person... even if they might suddenly grow cold and throw me out?

Haaaa, sorry if this is a lot of silly complaining. (And a LOT of questions... I really don't think there's just one topic here to discuss, but I figured I'd give you guys a lot to gnaw on.) I trust your advice very much!

 

[BlackCat]

It's fine to have standards for a relationship, everyone has those. But the drinking one, eh, I don't think you should turn people down for any drinking, but if it has a bad influence on their life then that is definitely understandable (I think the same thing). You should probably explain to him what you think about drinking, and the things that worry you about people who drink. If he likes you, then you can negotiate. But if it's just socially and with friends, then everything should be fine. Drinking only really becomes a problem in my opinion if a large amount of money gets invested in it and they are getting smashed daily, either alone or with people. I totally agree with you when you want to avoid people who drink a lot, but social drinking just really isn't a bad thing.

What gripes do you have with alcohol and people who drink? What is the core issue? Was it due to someone in your past who drank a lot and had lots of various issues because of it?

And yes, if you pursue one of these guys then keep in mind that if they do something against one of your standards that if you don't tell them what they are THEY WON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE MESSING UP!

I need more specifics.

But yeah, just use the search function on this forum and you can find ENFJ and ISTP threads, there are plenty of ISTP/ENFJ relationship threads floating around here.

 

[MmmCrazy]

You are awesome, I didn't think anyone would be able to make anything out of my post, haha.

To be honest, both of my parents are heavy drinkers which is why I'm so wary around drunk people. I just need to learn to loosen up, I suppose, but it's tough. I never want to put someone in a box again, though, especially not a free-spirited ISTP.

And yes, if you pursue one of these guys then keep in mind that if they do something against one of your standards that if you don't tell them what they are THEY WON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE MESSING UP!

True! Good point!

I've looked at a lot of the ISTP/ENFJ relationship threads already, actually. I can't look at them too much without missing my old boyfriend, but at least there's two new guys to choose from. (But which to choose...)

Also, other ENFJs, do you guys ever feel like you have to choose between loving one person and loving the whole world?

 

[2XtremeENFP]

I just need to learn to loosen up, I suppose, but it's tough. I never want to put someone in a box again, though, especially not a free-spirited ISTP.

Maybe I'm being idealistic (which I'm sure you don't want to hear now) but there are ISTPs out there who don't drink/get drunk.

We cant tell you to get past your preference of wanting to date someone who gets drunk. It's not up to us, it's up to you to decide what you prefer and are attracted to in a relationship.

I dated someone who never drank at all (kinda toooo strict about it) and also dated someone who drank socially and/or usually got drunk at big parties. I realized that I don't want a guy who drinks to get drunk--not even if they do it socially sometimes. Having a drink or two out is fine with me but-- what what is YOUR standard.

There are things I would prefer in a person I'm dating, and there are also things I NEED THEM TO HAVE. Things that are deal breakers. If I see a red flag in the beginning of a relationship, I end it. Why put yourself through the pain later on if you know it won't work...

don't compromise something that is close to your heart, especially something that brings apart a lifestyle... If you see red flags (whatever they may be) in these 2 potential ISTPs, is it worth it?

Only choosing to date blue-eyed people is a physical preference which doesn't involve their personal (and yours if you're dating) life.. but getting drunk does.

 

[Clonester]

Unfortunately, my friendliness attracts way too many romantic interests. (I never thought this would be a problem, the ugly duckling is a story I've always associated myself with!) After feeling awful about turning down some really great guys that just had one or two things wrong with them (i.e. One who drinks only on occasion, or one who keeps inviting me to parties), I started to doubt my ideal. Love is, after all, a give and take, so shouldn't I be bending to meet his needs as well?

When you say drinks on occasion, do you mean they drink moderately on occasion, or only get drunk once in a while?

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Lookin4theBestNU married an ISTP, and she's happy as hell.

 

[MmmCrazy]

I mean they only get drunk once in a while.

Geesh, I wish I didn't make such a big deal out of stuff like this. I really, really do. I like what you have to say, 2xtreme. Maybe I should just wait this out. :\

 

[Domino]

Hey, girly. I have some experience in this area (as BlackCat said, plenty of ISTP/ENFJ threads on the board for your reading pleasure). As far as a shadow pairing goes, this one seems to work out well even when several others don't. Can't say why.

I've known many ISTPs over the years that didn't drink at all or didn't drink to the point of drunkenness because they felt the loss of personal control was repugnant. Granted, I've known others to shake the roof down as a catharsis. My own stance is no drinking or social drinking only because I come from a background of family alcoholism and I find drunk people to be altered and scary. If you aren't okay with it, just accept that fact and find one who feels the same as you do.

I've dated ENTPs too who have the general air of libertines, and many can be, but I found one (a few actually) who liked to have a good time, yet had no taste for alcohol.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

I've dated ENTPs too who have the general air of libertines, and many can be, but I found one (a few actually) who liked to have a good time, yet had no taste for alcohol.

ENTPs

 

[Domino]

ENTPs

They make me too. Also, :steam:, , , and against my will.

 

[MmmCrazy]

Hey, girly. I have some experience in this area (as BlackCat said, plenty of ISTP/ENFJ threads on the board for your reading pleasure). As far as a shadow pairing goes, this one seems to work out well even when several others don't. Can't say why.

I've known many ISTPs over the years that didn't drink at all or didn't drink to the point of drunkenness because they felt the loss of personal control was repugnant. Granted, I've known others to shake the roof down as a catharsis. My own stance is no drinking or social drinking only because I come from a background of family alcoholism and I find drunk people to be altered and scary. If you aren't okay with it, just accept that fact and find one who feels the same as you do.

I've dated ENTPs too who have the general air of libertines, and many can be, but I found one (a few actually) who liked to have a good time, yet had no taste for alcohol.

I love you already.

I really love ISTPs! Such cool people to be with. But yes, I think I need to accept that part of myself and keep searching. I just wonder if I get too hung up on looking for ideal people out there. I don't want to be so picky that I reject everybody.

 

[proteanmix]

I think the ENFJ/ISTP pairing works out waaayyy better than ENFJ/INTP.

ISTPs have a different energy; I feel like they can handle Fe flames better.

 

[CurlyJoe]

It seems that I'm the first ISTP to post on this thread. I don't want to speak about my type in general, but only about my personal experience.

I am 41 years old now and I have a much better understanding of my own personality, strengths and weaknesses, than I did at 21. I feel that I am able to have a successful relationship with someone of any type now as long as we are both willing to communicate. But at 21, it was far more important for me to live life on my own terms. I had absolutely no ability to express my own feelings and great difficulty in understanding those of others. Any relationships that I had were very short because I was very reluctant to adapt my way of living to another person. I also dreaded the thought of discussing the state of the relationship with the woman because it was a language in which I had no ability and I would feel like a simpleton having a conversation about it. I would avoid any conflict and bail out when I had any hint that it was coming.

Alcohol also played an important role in my life at the time. My college friends were party animals that boozed it up regularly, I was in the army reserve for a while and I played rugby for a couple of years after college. These were all groups that drank heavily. I enjoyed the male bonding and the chance to engage in wild activities. I have always been a strong introvert and the alcohol was a "social lubricant" that allowed me to push my boundaries. There was a history of alcohol abuse in my family, so it was something that worried me. I know that the child of an alcoholic is three times more likely to be an alcoholic than those without an alcoholic parent. While I definitely did abuse alcohol through binge drinking, I am not an alcoholic. It is easy to say in hindsight after 20 years, but that may not have been clear to others at the time, or maybe even to myself.

But I never did drink much when I was seeing someone. I had no desire to make an ass of myself in front of a woman for whom I cared. In fact, I met one of my girlfriends at a party when we were both stinkin' drunk and just started making out (we hadn't even introduced ourselves). From such a crazy beginning, we went on to date for 5 months, but I was never drunk in her presence again (even though I think that she would have preferred for us to both let loose every now and then).

It seems like you are a nice woman and this ISTP probably has no idea of what his is missing out on. I can't say that I have any advice for you. I have a hard time now thinking of what I could say to my 21-year-old self that would knock me out of my comfort zone without the crutch of alcohol.

But I hope that you don't him too harshly for his drinking. I doubt that he drinks more than I used to (not many people do), and I think that I turned out okay.

 

[MmmCrazy]

I think the ENFJ/ISTP pairing works out waaayyy better than ENFJ/INTP.

ISTPs have a different energy; I feel like they can handle Fe flames better.

Agreed. Even when I felt like he was being cold when he broke up with me, he still let me cry it out with him until he seriously had to go because of time constraints!

It seems that I'm the first ISTP to post on this thread. I don't want to speak about my type in general, but only about my personal experience.

I am 41 years old now and I have a much better understanding of my own personality, strengths and weaknesses, than I did at 21. I feel that I am able to have a successful relationship with someone of any type now as long as we are both willing to communicate. But at 21, it was far more important for me to live life on my own terms. I had absolutely no ability to express my own feelings and great difficulty in understanding those of others. Any relationships that I had were very short because I was very reluctant to adapt my way of living to another person. I also dreaded the thought of discussing the state of the relationship with the woman because it was a language in which I had no ability and I would feel like a simpleton having a conversation about it. I would avoid any conflict and bail out when I had any hint that it was coming.

Alcohol also played an important role in my life at the time. My college friends were party animals that boozed it up regularly, I was in the army reserve for a while and I played rugby for a couple of years after college. These were all groups that drank heavily. I enjoyed the male bonding and the chance to engage in wild activities. I have always been a strong introvert and the alcohol was a "social lubricant" that allowed me to push my boundaries. There was a history of alcohol abuse in my family, so it was something that worried me. I know that the child of an alcoholic is three times more likely to be an alcoholic than those without an alcoholic parent. While I definitely did abuse alcohol through binge drinking, I am not an alcoholic. It is easy to say in hindsight after 20 years, but that may not have been clear to others at the time, or maybe even to myself.

But I never did drink much when I was seeing someone. I had no desire to make an ass of myself in front of a woman for whom I cared. In fact, I met one of my girlfriends at a party when we were both stinkin' drunk and just started making out (we hadn't even introduced ourselves). From such a crazy beginning, we went on to date for 5 months, but I was never drunk in her presence again (even though I think that she would have preferred for us to both let loose every now and then).

It seems like you are a nice woman and this ISTP probably has no idea of what his is missing out on. I can't say that I have any advice for you. I have a hard time now thinking of what I could say to my 21-year-old self that would knock me out of my comfort zone without the crutch of alcohol.

But I hope that you don't him too harshly for his drinking. I doubt that he drinks more than I used to (not many people do), and I think that I turned out okay.

No, this is the best advice you could've given me. I really appreciate the fact that you're able to see so well into your past. This ISTP guy never purposefully drank in front of me (I happened to walk into a party once) and I never saw him drunk, which I was proud of him for. He said before we were dating he would make out with random girls when he got drunk, but that he now felt like it was a stupid idea (mostly because he was too drunk to enjoy the fact that he was making out :rolli, but his friends immediately knew we were dating by the fact that he let me touch him while he was sober. Apparently he had a really high personal boundary that I never experienced because he really cared about me.

We were able to talk about our relationship in little sentences late at night when we were alone, but there were times when he would panic and tell me to ignore everything he just said because he thought he was making stuff up. I think this made me think he was superficial, but now I get that he just really didn't want to talk about feelings. I wish I could tell him I understand. ): Maybe I'll get a chance, one day. But it's so hard to talk to him about anything deep now.