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[ENFJ] ENFJs accused of indecision and manipulation

Drezoryx

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But is it really so? could it be that its not about indecision - but in fact there is a wider point to be made here. NFs have a natural thought process moving towards integrated society with austere and harmonious values which are at odds with values of the world currently in vogue. i.e. differentiating on race, color or even children moving away from parents when they grow up, or prioritizing between work/home with huge work loads on everyone - this is all disintegrative, resource intensive thinking-process or personal-values.

Same happens when an NF is forced to decide between competing claims say friends acquaintances etc. it just goes against their natural integrative and harmonious thought process. You cant blame them the world is pretty screwy with the values going around in the economy and political sphere trickling down to personal relations atm.

Agree/Disagree?:cheese:
 

Happyman

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Same happens when an NF is forced to decide between competing claims say friends acquaintances etc. it just goes against their natural integrative and harmonious thought process. You cant blame them the world is pretty screwy with the values going around in the economy and political sphere trickling down to personal relations atm.

I think it's very true - I mean the 'indecision'. I, for instance, for years have fought with myself - if I should follow 'my dream' against my parents' wishes or not. I did finally, but I felt very uneasy and I actually needed to distance myself from them, just to be able to decide.
I think we take crazy amount of thing under consideration. We are also more screwed ;) than ESFJs who rather try to harmonized what's verbalized and we have these crazy intuitions about what everyone thinks of us (so we basically strive for some impossible harmony between everybody).

I apologize for a bit chaotic&personalized response. I'm quite emotional about this subject (I was writing exactly about it in my blog like.. yesterday :) ).
Cool thread!
 

~~ENFJ~~

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I would say there is one category of things in which I'm extremely decisive--issues of morality or value judgments--and one in which I am quite indecisive--issues of neutral moral value when my decision could affect others and I am unaware of what the others might want. So yes, I would say your theory on wanting harmony is quite accurate for me.

Happyman's example of being caught between his parents and his desire to follow his dream is understandable to me, but not a quandary I would share. If I valued my dream (and being "my dream," I assume I would), I would easily choose to disregard my parents' opinions. I would try to please them as much as possible while pursuing my dream, but if I couldn't, I wouldn't regret it. But ask me where we should eat for dinner tonight and you likely won't get an answer out of me.
 

Halla74

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The ENFJs I know are very nice and good natured, and keep harmony in the air around them for sure.

They are also, however a bit demanding. :D

But anyone worth thier weight in salt is demanding in some capacity, so whatever. I'm good with ENFJs, we get along.
 

Biaxident

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The ENFJs I know are very nice and good natured, and keep harmony in the air around them for sure.

They are also, however a bit demanding. :D

But anyone worth thier weight in salt is demanding in some capacity, so whatever. I'm good with ENFJs, we get along.

Butt kisser. :harhar:
 

Biaxident

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That's easy to fix.

INFPs are DOUCHEBAGS. :yes:

Ow...that hurt my feewins...:puppy_dog_eyes::boohoo:


NOT!

:thelook:...How can you talk with your lips glued to every available pair of glutes within a thousand miles?

Oh wait...You're talking out your ass.


:D
 

Halla74

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:thelook:...How can you talk with your lips glued to every available pair of glutes within a thousand miles?

Oh wait...You're talking out your ass.


:D

I learned that in prison. :shock: :happy:

:yim_rolling_on_the_
 

JocktheMotie

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Never really sensed any indecision from ENFJs, if anything I think they have a wonderful amount of conviction in the endeavors they show to the rest of the world. A very active, very determined and intense presence is something I think they simply radiate, which makes uneasy people uncomfortable for whatever reason.

The manipulation thing, they seem to get that tag. I've never noticed manipulation, however I think a common FJ expression of stress or pain is the "guilt trip." The similar NT expression is bitter criticism with the intent to hurt/embarrass. Other types may feel like that is manipulation, but everybody does it.
 

Phoenix_400

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I don't see a lot of indecision either, at least not in my ENFJ friend. More a matter of having the same problem as me, so smart and with so many different interests its hard to choose something. Otherwise they know exactly what they want and are hell-bent on getting it :)

We've been having a discussion on the manipulation thing. I don't see it. You guys are too direct when dealing with a confrontation and getting what you want. I see manipulation as the other person not knowing what you're after. You get them to go along with what you want and they're completely clueless.

My ENFJ friends will state exactly what it is they want up front and then use every advantage they can find to get it. I see that as more "Determination" and a sign of intelligence than actual "Manipulation".
 

Gewitter27

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ENFJs tend to be very Enneagram 2. Unhealthy-Low Average 2s are very manipulative.
 

nynesneg

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I don't see a lot of indecision either, at least not in my ENFJ friend. More a matter of having the same problem as me, so smart and with so many different interests its hard to choose something. Otherwise they know exactly what they want and are hell-bent on getting it

Haha, I can totally relate. I am an ENFJ and I would never ever EVER manipulate someone consciously. I am totally against controlling someone else or making them feel like I pushed them to something they didn't want. I feel absolutely terrible if I accidently run over someone's feelings.

My personal life on the other hand is a completely different story. lol. I know exactly what I want for myself and I see no reason why I can't get it. I set a very high ideal for myself, and expect to be able to reach it (and often do after hours of effort and endurance). Sometimes adult advisor friend type people joke around when I tell them what I plan to do saying it's an idealistic dream, but half the time I actually end up doing it or learning halfway down the road to be happy with 75% of my dream for now.

I suppose I do have trouble making certain decisions, if they have to do with relationships, or if I have several great opportunities and I don't know which one will best lead me to my end goal. I worry the most about hurting other people's feelings if I have to correct them or teach them.
 

ceecee

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Haha, I can totally relate. I am an ENFJ and I would never ever EVER manipulate someone consciously.


I don't think the healthy ones ever do. I see little indecisiveness as well. Oh demanding, yes they can be but even that's not much of an issue.
 

nynesneg

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I don't think the healthy ones ever do. I see little indecisiveness as well. Oh demanding, yes they can be but even that's not much of an issue.

Well that makes me feel good. :hug: I've read in profiles how ENFJs tend to manipulate people and it troubles me to think I might do that.
 

Coeur

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The healthy ones probably do not manipulate, but the handful that I have known have.

The most recent example: I was mad at my friend. To guilt me into dropping the issue, she told me that two of her friends were dying of cancer. This turned out to be a boldfaced lie.

Obviously, not healthy behavior. But, that's just one of many examples. They don't seem to handle conflict very well.
 

Drezoryx

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the manipulators must be the INTJs feigning E and F ness ;)
 

TopherRed

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Coeur's right; I did not handle conflict well when I was younger. I do now. It's part and parcel of life--the sooner you accept that, the easier it will be.

Bold-faced lie? Wow, that ENFJ is immature and lacking creativity. Could be that your friend knew you could see through her so well and felt like that was her last resort.

Not saying that's "okay" behavior at all, just saying that I used to be more creative than that.

-Fuzzy
 

Drezoryx

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Haha, I can totally relate. I am an ENFJ and I would never ever EVER manipulate someone consciously. I am totally against controlling someone else or making them feel like I pushed them to something they didn't want. I feel absolutely terrible if I accidently run over someone's feelings.

My personal life on the other hand is a completely different story. lol. I know exactly what I want for myself and I see no reason why I can't get it. I set a very high ideal for myself, and expect to be able to reach it (and often do after hours of effort and endurance). Sometimes adult advisor friend type people joke around when I tell them what I plan to do saying it's an idealistic dream, but half the time I actually end up doing it or learning halfway down the road to be happy with 75% of my dream for now.

I suppose I do have trouble making certain decisions, if they have to do with relationships, or if I have several great opportunities and I don't know which one will best lead me to my end goal. I worry the most about hurting other people's feelings if I have to correct them or teach them.

the decision making is tough when all options are good or close. and yes why cant i ever break up? :doh:
 

nynesneg

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and yes why cant i ever break up? :doh:

Ahaha! That is so me. I thought about breaking up a year ago, and tried it for a month but was miserable. I know I should break up eventually, but the best way in my opinion will be to move away. I won't be able to do that for awhile, so another year it is. /shrug. We both greatly enjoy the companionship and neither wants any great commitment right now.



The most recent example: I was mad at my friend. To guilt me into dropping the issue, she told me that two of her friends were dying of cancer. This turned out to be a boldfaced lie.
Obviously everyone has a different perspective, however the weird thing is that conflicts directly with the J and strong sense of trust, honesty, and dependability, no?
 
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