[Fi] The INTJ Fi Demand

[Lethe]

People like you almost make me want to say, "What does it take to get a reaction out of you, anyway? Do I have to threaten or harm you?! How am I supposed to get you to feel what I'm feeling? This is frustrating."

I've pretty much decided that my "work" expressions will be the following:

Start: :rolli: :banned:

End:

Anything out of that is out of the question.

For an honest answer, I would actually be too intensely focused on the work at hand to permit those flimsy emotions distract me from finishing. I have some handy tips to help you deal with stubborn TJs, but that's going to wait until I get some night's rest.

 

[Amargith]

Athenian, NTJs will not be impressed by your frustration or temper tantrums as long as you do not obstruct the flow of the project. And if you do, they will crush you as you're standing between them and their goal.

However, it is possible,ime, to stop them in their tracks for a short while, and have them pause, provided you bring the right tools. That means that you can get them to care about people if you are able to demonstrate that your suggestion will in fact improve the efficiency of the project. More even, they'll greatly appreciate and respect you for those suggestions, even if it means that in the moment they might sigh, moan and bitch about the fact that they need to keep peoples feelings in mind.

My INTJ actually regularly asks me how to handle certain people in his firm. These days not so much since he figured out that if you know the people, and you can predict how they will respond, you can get around them best by...well...understanding them and anticipating their needs. If he need someone in a project, he will cater to their needs to make them cooperate as smoothly as possible, thus increasing the efficiency of the project. People become just an extra obstacle to manoevre around.

If you are able to explain it in these terms to an INTJ, they will reluctantly see that efficiency and the project are benefitted by them spending 5 minutes extra on a persons feelings than dealing with the mess of a 'hurt' collegue which can take a few hours to clean up, or worse, destroy the integrity of a project. And if you are able to explain it this way, INTJs will notice you..in a non-crushing way, though frustration is still to be expected

At least..this is how I experience it with mine

Edit: There *are* NTJs that aren't this far yet and will not believe you when you tell them that this is in fact more efficiently. They will learn in due time though that offending people is usually the best way to get their project sabotaged. Most will first blame the other people and their precious feelings, but eventually will come to see people for what they are (to them), another obstacle/riddle to conquer. Until that time though..steer clear and let them hit their head on that wall a few times. They need to find out for themselves.

 

[Kra]

It seems I'm a little late to this ball.

I find metaphors useful in describing facets of my personality. So, in fantasy terms, I think an INTJ's functions are going to be as follows:

Ni The Oracle:
Mystic, tells of future possibilities and probabilities. Often vague and cryptic.

Te The Mercenary:
In it for the money (progress). Often unattached or uncaring of which side it's on, so long as it's paid. It is often possessing a utilitarian mindset.

Fi The Paladin:
Forever motivated towards it's cause. Concerns itself with righteousness and bringing retribution to the corrupt. A very steadfast and rigid character. Unfortunately, it's judgments are sometimes overly simple concerning a complex issue. +2 damage against undead.

Se The Bard:
Seeks to experience so that it may spin tales. Sees and appreciates beauty in many things. Has a penchant for alcohol and women...


So, to further expound on the OP's question, my Fi is generally responsible for the initial motivations that I have (Paladin has a quest, goes to the oracle for divination, hires the mercenary, and the bard just follows along annoying the piss out of everyone and providing comic relief), as well as the judgmental soapbox moments that I have.

Like most have said already, my Fi is not super ethical. There are very few things that it's intolerant of. But once you find one of those things, it's merciless.

 

[Athenian200]

I've pretty much decided that my "work" expressions will be the following:

Start: :rolli:

End:

Anything out of that is out of the question.

For an honest answer, I would actually be too intensely focused on the work at hand to permit those flimsy emotions distract me from finishing. I have some handy tips to help you deal with stubborn TJs, but that's going to wait until I get some night's rest.

Yeah... I'll take :banned:. I don't want to work with you, I find you distasteful. I really just can't tolerate Te enough to work with people who use it. I've never responded well to it, and I'm not going to start now. So stay out of my way, while I do MY project, and you do your own. I'm sure mine will be better anyway. I do not need you.

I've done projects designed for 5 people over a month in 2 days alone before. I'm sure your broad, clumsy Te hammer-logic wouldn't help me figure out anything I couldn't have learned on my own anyway, so I don't see any reason to put up with your frustrating, inhumane interaction style.

To be honest, I probably wouldn't work well with someone who has their own ideas about a project, anyway... there's only room for ONE visionary on a project, sorry.

 

[nonsequitur]

Athenian, NTJs will not be impressed by your frustration or temper tantrums as long as you do not obstruct the flow of the project. And if you do, they will crush you as you're standing between them and their goal.

However, it is possible,ime, to stop them in their tracks for a short while, and have them pause, provided you bring the right tools. That means that you can get them to care about people if you are able to demonstrate that your suggestion will in fact improve the efficiency of the project. More even, they'll greatly appreciate and respect you for those suggestions, even if it means that in the moment they might sigh, moan and bitch about the fact that they need to keep peoples feelings in mind.

My INTJ actually regularly asks me how to handle certain people in his firm. These days not so much since he figured out that if you know the people, and you can predict how they will respond, you can get around them best by...well...understanding them and anticipating their needs. If he need someone in a project, he will cater to their needs to make them cooperate as smoothly as possible, thus increasing the efficiency of the project. People become just an extra obstacle to manoevre around.

If you are able to explain it in these terms to an INTJ, they will reluctantly see that efficiency and the project are benefitted by them spending 5 minutes extra on a persons feelings than dealing with the mess of a 'hurt' collegue which can take a few hours to clean up, or worse, destroy the integrity of a project. And if you are able to explain it this way, INTJs will notice you..in a non-crushing way, though frustration is still to be expected

This is 100% right. I generally hold my tongue and expend effort to win people over. Or if they are just that ridiculously out-of-touch, I just say "yes" and ignore what they say (excuse later on is "sorry, I forgot" - it's less damaging to be thought absent-minded than a bitch, and if everything works out, I give credit to everyone regardless). It's completely inefficient (not to mention a long-term disaster) to bulldoze through people most of the time. Even if I get frustrated, I recognise this.

 

[Matthew_Z]

So INTJs are internally bound by an Fi moral code?

Suckers.

</immature INTP>

 

[Athenian200]

So INTJs are internally bound by an Fi moral code?

Suckers.

</immature INTP>

Hehe.

That's what I was thinking.

 

[Amargith]

Pff, you're the suckers for not being able to appreciate the warm gooey center of an NTJ

 

[Matthew_Z]

Pff, you're the suckers for not being able to appreciate the warm gooey center of an NTJ

Amargith... I thought... we...

 

[Athenian200]

Pff, you're the suckers for not being able to appreciate the warm gooey center of an NTJ

Notice I said I never want to WORK with an INTJ. I never said I didn't want to PLAY with an INTJ.

As long as they don't pull the Te hammer out, they're fine. The Ni is good. But I absolutely refuse to deal with an INTJ in "work mode," or who's currently pursuing a goal. So we can talk casually, without being involved in each others projects... but I'd prefer we worked apart, because we'd get in each others way.

 

[Uytuun]

What I mean is, INTJs don't seem at all averse to cursing, slang, wearing outlandish clothing, or making inappropriate comments. I don't see how someone like that could be considered to have a moral code. It's not unforgivable, but I still find it tacky enough that I wouldn't want to be seen with such a person.

Sometimes I wonder whether you're for real. You're talking about Fe right or wrong (societally accepted behaviours, not ethical concerns), which to me is indeed rather irrelevant. How to look beyond your own type 101, seriously.

I have a feeling that Fi makes me unpredictable. I love to have fun, I'm blunt, I can seem crazy, I have no problem with taboo subjects, but if you go too far for my moral compass, I will comment about it...

I remember one "ha ha, it's all in good fun, let's send a message to friend x's boyfriend pretending to be her and saying some weird shit" instance. I asked the friend who wanted to do that whether she'd want to have it done to her and that that stuff might unnecessarily strain their relationship. Also it just seems completely wrong to go behind someone's back when they're in the pool and do that. It's dishonest and leaves the other person powerless. I don't think you should speak in someone else's name. Games like that you really shouldn't try on me.

I don't throw a tantrum, I just calmly tell them and generally they drop it. If they don't want to drop it, I will distance myself and interfere when I notice the other person wondering what happened.

This is just one aspect of Fi, though.

 

[Amargith]

Amargith... I thought... we...

Aww baby...didn't you say you were INTX? I can work with that...
Besides, INTPs are quite attractive as well, just for very different reasons

Notice I said I never want to WORK with an INTJ. I never said I didn't want to PLAY with an INTJ.

As long as they don't pull the Te hammer out, they're fine. The Ni is good. But I absolutely refuse to deal with an INTJ in "work mode," or who's currently pursuing a goal. So we can talk casually, without being involved in each others projects... but I'd prefer we worked apart, because we'd get in each others way.

I dunno, I love it when they get in that frustrated/determined look where they will crush everything in their way to get to their goal. And I love it even more to be the thing standing between them and their goal. You can almost feel them going 'Who the hell do you think you are to stand in my way, you puny human!'

I like to live dangerously, what can I say

 

[Athenian200]

I dunno, I love it when they get in that frustrated/determined look where they will crush everything in their way to get to their goal. And I love it even more to be the thing standing between them and their goal. You can almost feel them going 'Who the hell do you think you are to stand in my way, you puny human!'

I like to live dangerously, what can I say

I guess I just don't find it cute, because I'm thinking exactly the same thing about them... though I'd probably say it as "Who misled you to think you were important enough to stand in my way? I guess you need to be taught your place."

 

[Amargith]

LOL..ahhh Fe vs Te..and both guided by Ni as well..who's right?

 

[Kra]

I've always thought of Te as just a tool, and not so much a mindset. Te being wielded by Ni is cold, but rarely vindictive. On the whole, my life's in a better place if I just let Ni drive, and most people get along with me much better. Sure, I can be a space cadet at times, but my friends have told me that's one of the things they love about me.

Te being wielded by Fi, on the other hand, can be a little stubborn and obnoxious with other people. It also gets frustrated easier. To be honest, I don't think Fi likes using Te, so it gets impatient if it has to go to plan B. Ni already has plans down to X usually, so it doesn't get upset.

Athenian, Te users can be fulfilling to work with if they have a team-oriented mindset. It's just a challenge of finding one with enough experience to know that. IME, stubbornness and holier-than-thou attitudes come from Fi more than anything.

 

[Athenian200]

I've always thought of Te as just a tool, and not so much a mindset. Te being wielded by Ni is cold, but rarely vindictive. On the whole, my life's in a better place if I just let Ni drive, and most people get along with me much better. Sure, I can be a space cadet at times, but my friends have told me that's one of the things they love about me.

Yeah, I like the spacey Ni stuff... sigh. That's why I can't stay mad at INTJs.

Te being wielded by Fi, on the other hand, can be a little stubborn and obnoxious with other people. It also gets frustrated easier. To be honest, I don't think Fi likes using Te, so it gets impatient if it has to go to plan B. Ni already has plans down to X usually, so it doesn't get upset.

Oh, yes... I hate Te being wielded by Fi. I think seeing FPs use it is what sours me on to the extent that I don't trust it when I see TJs use it.

Athenian, Te users can be fulfilling to work with if they have a team-oriented mindset. It's just a challenge of finding one with enough experience to know that. IME, stubbornness and holier-than-thou attitudes come from Fi more than anything.

I will admit that I never seem to have real problems with INTJs if we're working one-on-one. In fact, that can be pretty awesome. Their Te never seems to get out of control unless we're working in groups and they start introducing all this arbitrary structure that seems practical to them because of the black and white Te tendencies to think in terms of "works/doesn't work," without even bothering to understand what the structure's nature is, what it's specifically trying to do, why it works in some situations but not others, and which kind of situation this is. I guess I dislike the way INTJs do things because their way of reasoning and structuring things lacks nuance, not just on the interpersonal level, but also logically. Basically, INTJs are hammer and binocular people (in groups with Te), I'm a person who wants to use a microscope and tweezers.


It's just odd... I swear it only crops up in groups. One-on-one, they never seem to hassle me or act like jerks. They always make sense and are clearly going somewhere then.

 

[Rhapsody]

I think--just think--we don't do this to everyone. Just the people we interact with closely.

This makes sense. The INTJs I know never seem to express their Fi at full strength except with people who are extremely close. For that matter, I've observed the same thing with ENFPs and with myself. I don't know if it's the same for INTJs, but for me it's not even a matter of conscious thought ... it's not like I try to hide it, it just refuses to come out. The other person has to find my Fi, not the other way around.

I hear this so often that I sometimes wonder if any female likes other females lol.

LOL, you're not the only one. Er, and then I said something more, but it was way off topic, so I moved it here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/relationships/21634-harder-friends-woman-than-man.html

To get back on topic, I forgot to mention earlier that the Fi Demand is actually one of my favorite things about INTJs. I find it really admirable and inspirational that INTJs have such a strict moral code and that they'll go to such great lengths to try to put it into action and to improve the world. I'm hoping it will rub off on me someday.

 

[Kra]

I will admit that I never seem to have real problems with INTJs if we're working one-on-one. In fact, that can be pretty awesome. Their Te never seems to get out of control unless we're working in groups and they start introducing all this arbitrary structure that seems practical to them because of the black and white Te tendencies to think in terms of "works/doesn't work," without even bothering to understand what the structure's nature is, what it's specifically trying to do, why it works in some situations but not others, and which kind of situation this is. I guess I dislike the way INTJs do things because their way of reasoning and structuring things lacks nuance, not just on the interpersonal level, but also logically. Basically, INTJs are hammer and binocular people (in groups with Te), I'm a person who wants to use a microscope and tweezers.


It's just odd... I swear it only crops up in groups. One-on-one, they never seem to hassle me or act like jerks. They always make sense and are clearly going somewhere then.

Then again, I'm kind of an odd INTJ. I was an INTP throughout high-school, and it wasn't until I was about 21 that I had clearly become an INTJ. But I think I still carry some INTP tendencies along with me. That little bit of P history probably makes me easier to work with.

 

[Matthew_Z]

Aww baby...didn't you say you were INTX? I can work with that...
Besides, INTPs are quite attractive as well, just for very different reasons

Didn't your mother ever teach you that all INTXs are actually INTPs?

 

[poppy]

Fi The Paladin:
Forever motivated towards it's cause. Concerns itself with righteousness and bringing retribution to the corrupt. A very steadfast and rigid character. Unfortunately, it's judgments are sometimes overly simple concerning a complex issue. +2 damage against undead.

Have I told you lately that I love you

I remember one "ha ha, it's all in good fun, let's send a message to friend x's boyfriend pretending to be her and saying some weird shit" instance. I asked the friend who wanted to do that whether she'd want to have it done to her and that that stuff might unnecessarily strain their relationship. Also it just seems completely wrong to go behind someone's back when they're in the pool and do that. It's dishonest and leaves the other person powerless. I don't think you should speak in someone else's name. Games like that you really shouldn't try on me.

Oh, yes, I know people who think it's great fun to play around like that, and when I speak up about it they look at me like I'm nuts. Maybe I just need to meet better people though.

---
Also, Amargith's advice on how to deal with TJs was pretty solid Sometimes I need someone to take me aside and explain that I'm acting too hastily and need to consider the people/system I'm working with.