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[INFP] negotiation skills

joshuatree

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
9
MBTI Type
infp
*sigh*
I've done it again... and now I'm feeling crap - again.
just got off the phone after being talked down in price for my skills/service.
It happens every time.
I quote them a price... they ask for better.
straight away I fold and give them a cheap price that I'm not happy with but I know they'll go for.
They go away more than happy, I'm sitting here feeling like shit and don't even want to do the job now.
Of course, after the phone is hung up and I can digest it all, I have a thousand comebacks to counteract their argument.
Why didn't they send me an email instead of calling me???
Why didn't I stick to my price??
why do I feel like crap???
Is this typical of my type, or is it just me as an individual not valuing myself?
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I feel somewhat the same, that I make bad deals. I think my nego skills are fine, but I have often prepared too little to establish the best case for myself.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,246
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
The IxxP thing does not help much with sticking to a negotiating price. We want to flex, to make things work and not miss out on the opportunity... and then end up afterwards feeling like crap.

One recourse to bump your original price a bit, so when you flex and drop it, they feel like they're getting a deal and you still get the money you need to cover costs.

But in a negotiation, I feel like the customer has the advantage, since they have the money and you want it and others want it as well. So they force you to take the "first risk" by sticking to a price even if they threaten to walk; their risk is actually walking and losing out on your services... but only after you've stuck to your guns and committed yourself.

Some of it is just deciding to yourself what you are willing to live with and what you are not, and then not castigating yourself afterwards for sticking to your values.
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,996
Donald Trump views negotiation as a game.

The initial stages are used to feel people out and often has a tendency to have ridiculous offers and counter offers.

Make ridiculous offers while varying things like price, time, quality, particular features, style of pay, etc. to feel out what is actually valuable to the other party, then make a "game ending" (my term, but I think it capture Trump's intent) ridiculous offer that makes use of what the other party values.

At this point, real negotiation can begin.

That's how I envision I should do it ideally, but in practice (there is reason I don't do real life negotiation, and bring in someone who I know is better, usually one of my parents or a friend) I usually give in during the "ridiculous" phase.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
This is you as an individual not valuing yourself and your work, and it’s somewhat typical of our type.

The important thing to remember is that you can still negotiate without losing the customer. The customer should expect some bartering, so they’re not going to be surprised when you supersede their suggestion for a price with a suggestion of your own.

I think it is related to how much you value yourself. You are worthy of whatever bounty you reap for your services, and worthy of whatever you want. You just are.

I’m just going to throw a few suggestions out there. Like any bit of advice, take what you like and leave the rest behind. These are just a few things I’ve found work well for me.

It helps me to feel valuable by imagining there’s someone inside of me who thinks I’m awesome even if I don’t. Kind of like saying to myself, “There’s a part of me that will always think I’m awesome, even if I don’t feel that way.” It's a little boost of self-worth and positive self-esteem. It frees me from thinking about WHY I’m awesome – I just am, period, even if I suck at work, or nobody likes me, or I wreck my car or lose a friend, or what have you.

Another thing that might help is thinking of yourself as worthy of whatever you want: love, understanding, attention, anything at all. And you don’t have to make friends or have everyone like you, understand you or agree with you to be happy. You can be happy with or without anybody on your side, because you’re on your own side. Or that inner part of you that wants you to be happy is, anyway.

Scenario: A customer calls up and they suggest a much lower price than the starting price. You suggest a price a little bit lower than the starting price, and they say they can’t meet it. You go a little lower. They still can’t meet it. You ask, “What price range can you afford?” You consider their response and say, “Well, the lowest I can afford today is such-and-such. It’s higher than your range. Can you do it?” And go as low as you're willing, but don't sacrifice yourself to the sword. In a negotiation between two people, compromises will be made, but only if both people are compromising. If only one person is compromising, it's nothing more than sacrifice. The worst case scenario is that you go so low you feel bad about it. If they can't pay the minimum for your services, they can't have your services. It's a waste of your time. Decide what the minimum amount of money is that you'll accept for a particular skill or service and try never to go that low. Always aim higher. If you MUST go that low, do, but don't go any lower.

Be your own person, fight for what you need and desire, and don’t feel bad about it. You’re worthy. You’re cool. And you want what you want. And there's nothing wrong with that.

P.S. I like your name.
 

joshuatree

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
9
MBTI Type
infp
thanks guys.
yes mempy, I am cool.

Upon reflection, it was a phone call out of the blue wanting a price on the spot.
Decisions on the spot always freak me out if I'm not prepared. I just can't think straight.
My usual response is "I'll get back to you".
I need time to make decisions and they usually come to me after playing out every scenario. Thereby a decision is usually made around 3.30am when I sit bolt upright with a conclusion I'm happy with, along with comebacks for every argument etc.
 

Sahara

New member
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
927
MBTI Type
INFP
thanks guys.
yes mempy, I am cool.

Upon reflection, it was a phone call out of the blue wanting a price on the spot.
Decisions on the spot always freak me out if I'm not prepared. I just can't think straight.My usual response is "I'll get back to you".
I need time to make decisions and they usually come to me after playing out every scenario. Thereby a decision is usually made around 3.30am when I sit bolt upright with a conclusion I'm happy with, along with comebacks for every argument etc.

Oh yes, same here, I need time to mull it over. Forcing me to make a decision on the spot is unbelievably stressful.
 

lastrailway

New member
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
508
...My usual response is "I'll get back to you". ...

Sorry for saying something irrelevant (as usually), but for a long time I was answering "I 'll get back at you", until somebody explained me what this really means...
I am horribly bad in negotiating myself. Thankfully, I don't have to do it usually (at least not in person)
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
*sigh*
I've done it again... and now I'm feeling crap - again.
just got off the phone after being talked down in price for my skills/service.
It happens every time.
I quote them a price... they ask for better.
straight away I fold and give them a cheap price that I'm not happy with but I know they'll go for.
They go away more than happy, I'm sitting here feeling like shit and don't even want to do the job now.
Of course, after the phone is hung up and I can digest it all, I have a thousand comebacks to counteract their argument.
Why didn't they send me an email instead of calling me???
Why didn't I stick to my price??
why do I feel like crap???
Is this typical of my type, or is it just me as an individual not valuing myself?
My sister is an INFP and she occasionally makes comments that remind me of what you are describing.
She has resigned herself to the "fact" that she is going to allow people to take advantage of her, all her life.
I know she would empathize with how you feel.
I certainly understand.

I think some of it might be "self-esteem", but more than likely it's because INFPs are just so darn nice and would give you the shirt off their back.

If it really matters to you, and you really want to stick to your guns, I recommend you scout out how other people do it, and copy what feels comfortable for you. Perhaps all you need is to realize that it's not rude to come back with a counter-offer. If you'd rather not do the job at all now, what good is that?

How much of a discount did they ask for? (My sister hates it when I ask her to do math.) Is your price too high? Maybe if you came down a tiny bit, people wouldn't feel comfortable asking for a discount?

I know it's too late for this time, but maybe if you think ahead for the next time, you'll be ready to respond in a way you can better live with.

Just for the record:
From Do What You Are:
(under INFPs Possible Blindspots)
"it can be hard for them to stand up for an unpopular position"
"they have a hard time saying no"
"INFPs need to develop more assertiveness"

I wish you good success.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
thanks guys.
yes mempy, I am cool.

Upon reflection, it was a phone call out of the blue wanting a price on the spot.
Decisions on the spot always freak me out if I'm not prepared. I just can't think straight.
My usual response is "I'll get back to you".
I need time to make decisions and they usually come to me after playing out every scenario. Thereby a decision is usually made around 3.30am when I sit bolt upright with a conclusion I'm happy with, along with comebacks for every argument etc.
I need time to think, too.

I was just wondering, if quoting by the job is so tricky, have you thought about charging by the hour instead?
 
R

RDF

Guest
*sigh*
I've done it again... and now I'm feeling crap - again.
just got off the phone after being talked down in price for my skills/service.
It happens every time.
I quote them a price... they ask for better.
straight away I fold and give them a cheap price that I'm not happy with but I know they'll go for.
They go away more than happy, I'm sitting here feeling like shit and don't even want to do the job now.
Of course, after the phone is hung up and I can digest it all, I have a thousand comebacks to counteract their argument.
Why didn't they send me an email instead of calling me???
Why didn't I stick to my price??
why do I feel like crap???
Is this typical of my type, or is it just me as an individual not valuing myself?

Hi Joshuatree,

Salary/price negotiations are tough for anyone. But as you get a feel for your industry and see how others handle similar situations, you can build up some stock strategies for dealing with those initial inquiries (and handling the customer while you're providing the service).

For example, below is a link to an article on negotiating salary when you're first being interviewed for a new job. Interviewers will ask for a salary range early along in the interview process because they need to stay within budget or want to screen out applicants who are well outside an organization's targets.

That may not be the same situation as yours (which sounds more like contractor work if you're being asked for per-assignment rates). Still, it's nice to know how the rest of the world handles the situation of salary negotiations: Is it a tough question to answer? Should you provide a range up front or defer an answer? What are the standard polite ways to defer answering? etc. (If you want to read the article, you will need to register with the Washington Post. But the registration is free and won't generate spam.)

washingtonpost.com

The article is entitled, "Surviving the Salary Negotiation Minefield." Basically, the gist of the article is that you should defer answering an inquiries about salary: "Your goal is to buy time to learn as much as you can before committing to a target salary. Even asking for 24 hours to give it some serious thought can give you enough time to run the numbers so you don't rule yourself out or sell yourself short..."

And of course the article provides a number of polite ways to defer and also suggestions on what you should be doing with that time that you buy yourself.

As for the situation of contractors setting prices on a per-assignment basis: I was an outside independent contractor (a translator) for about five years before being hired by my present employer. Now that I'm on the inside, a big part of my job involves contracting out assignments to outside independent contactors. So I've dealt with both sides of the situation.

Here are some ideas on how I handled price negotiations when I was an independent contractor.

1) As for initial price inquiries: I generally wouldn't provide a price without first seeing the work to be done. Translations vary greatly by difficulty, and the client often doesn't describe the work correctly over the phone since they can't read the material. If nothing else, that always bought me an hour or so while they faxed or e-mailed the work to me and I looked it over.

2) As for setting price: With the work in front of me (and having taken some time to deliberate when and how to fit in the work), I was in a better position to sell my services. For example, I could substantiate my price by describing the work that was required and simultaneously give a little sales pitch about my services. Even if I wasn't the cheapest translator in town, once I had the work in hand and had demonstrated that I was knowledgeable about the work and a good match for the job, it was often easier for the client to just leave the job with me than to try to shop it elsewhere.

3) If the client asked for a discount: One trick for handling this is to offer a couple different quality levels of service (say, a summary translation versus a full translation, or an expensive rate for a short deadline and a cheaper rate for a long deadline). If they refused to pay the full rate, I could always offer the cheaper summary translation rate. And when they asked what that entails, I could often talk them back up to the higher rate when they found out that the summary translation rate offered an incomplete translation. But in general, I've found that it's good to offer a couple different levels of service and price and a choice of trade-offs between quality and time (deadline) or quality and price. That seems to mollify customers even if they ultimately end up paying full price anyway, because at least they've been given some options rather than just having to swallow a single big price.

4) If a new client insisted on discount even for a fully polished translation, I generally went with along with that, especially if there was any hope for more work in the future from that same client. I could justify the discount (to both myself and the client) on a one-time basis in order to get my foot in the door and get my product in front of them, with the proviso that I would insist on full price for future jobs.

I've done the same thing with permanent jobs in the past. That is, when I breaking into a new field and couldn't justify a high salary based on past performance, then I would sometimes agree to work for an artificially low salary for the first couple months while I was learning the field with the proviso that after six months I would be back to renegotiate my salary and bump it up to normal levels. An arrangement like that allowed me to get my foot in the door at a discounted rate and still retain the right to demand a higher salary once I was up to speed and they were more familiar with my work.

As a result, I didn't think it was a big disaster to put up with some occasional discounted work, especially when I was trying to build clientele and/or get a foot in someone's door. If it's only on a one-time basis or for a short period of time, then it usually doesn't result in a big financial hit. Meantime I developed some goodwill with the client and showed them that I understood their fears about agreeing to a big bill before they've even seen whether my work fits their needs. I just covered my own needs by making sure I had the right to demand a higher fee later on once I was a known quantity.

Anyway, the big lesson here is to be prepared: Get in the habit of asking to see the work close-up before pricing it, be able to break down your services and give a sales pitch about them, maybe have some cheaper services to offer when clients can't afford the full rate, etc.

Also, figure out your priorities ahead of time. Giving out a discount once in a while won't hurt so bad if you can justify it as an investment in a longer-term working relationship. But again, that takes some preparation. You want to decide ahead of time when and under what conditions you'll give out the discount, so that you feel you're in control of it rather than feeling like you've been bullied or conned into providing a discount.

These are just a few general suggestions. Your mileage will vary, depending on your field and the nature of the product you provide.

When I was an independent contractor, ultimately I wanted to end up with one or two big clients providing a high volume of work. Those kinds of clients tended to have flat rates, and so negotiations weren't so much about basic salary; instead they were about things like working on weekends and holidays or trying to get a bonus for extra-difficult assignments. So I tended to cultivate those particular clients by providing a lot of personal service and high quality and taking the hit myself on occasional extra costs. I wanted to show that I was a compliant, high-quality, low-maintenance contractor. When I was first breaking into the translation field, I specialized in precisely those jobs or profiles that other contractors didn't like: for example, working on holidays or doing big overnight assignments without demanding extra money for the extra inconvenience. In the end, my big-volume clients said they kept coming back to me and moving me higher and higher on their lists of contractors (and thus giving me more and more work volume) because I was always there for them and I didn't nickel-and-dime them or give them a hassle about inconvenient assignments.

So sit down and figure out your priorities, depending on your clients and what kind of business you're trying to build. Again, do the preparation and figure out your priorities ahead of time, and then presumably you won't feel so bad when you occasionally have to swallow a discount or put up with some inconvenience in order to land a strategic job or client.

[Edit:] Oh yeah, and if you have to refuse a job, then it's a nice touch to give the client the names of some generic competitors. I've refused plenty of jobs in the past, especially once I was set up with one or two high-volume clients and didn't need outside work. Sometimes new customers called with a difficult, one-off assignment, and I was too busy already or I just couldn't be bothered taking on unfamiliar work. Nothing wrong with being in a position to turn down work. But just as a courtesy I gave them a read-out on what they needed in the way of services and steered them to an acquaintance in need of more work or even just an agency. That way there were no hard feelings, and sometimes acquaintances even got in touch later and thanked me for steering work their way.
 
Last edited:

joshuatree

New member
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
9
MBTI Type
infp
Thank you FineLine, I really appreciate the effort you have put into your post.

I have been in this industry for 15 years now, for some reason it has never gotten any easier for me.

At least I don't have the 'phone phobia' i used to have... "who is it, what will they want?? what if they ask me something tricky??" which is not good for business!! seems ridiculous now, but that was me.

I guess that is how I ended up here, I've done a lot of soul searching over the years, trying to move on and make some improvements and break some bad habits.
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
*sigh*
I've done it again... and now I'm feeling crap - again.
just got off the phone after being talked down in price for my skills/service.
It happens every time.
I quote them a price... they ask for better.
straight away I fold and give them a cheap price that I'm not happy with but I know they'll go for.
They go away more than happy, I'm sitting here feeling like shit and don't even want to do the job now.
Of course, after the phone is hung up and I can digest it all, I have a thousand comebacks to counteract their argument.
Why didn't they send me an email instead of calling me???
Why didn't I stick to my price??
why do I feel like crap???
Is this typical of my type, or is it just me as an individual not valuing myself?
Do not worry.
You have learned the lesson all right.
 
R

RDF

Guest
Fineline,

Great post!

Thanks, Tovlo.

Thank you FineLine, I really appreciate the effort you have put into your post.

I have been in this industry for 15 years now, for some reason it has never gotten any easier for me.

At least I don't have the 'phone phobia' i used to have... "who is it, what will they want?? what if they ask me something tricky??" which is not good for business!! seems ridiculous now, but that was me.

I guess that is how I ended up here, I've done a lot of soul searching over the years, trying to move on and make some improvements and break some bad habits.

Given where you're at, I think you're right to come someplace like a message board and ask. Oftentimes you know the right thing to do, but it's hard to apply it in your own life. Meantime, people on a message board with some personal experience of the same situation can perhaps personalize the lesson a bit and offer some helpful tips for making some changes. Sometimes that makes it more "real," and you can start to see ways to implement the same things in your own life.

Anyway, good luck!
 
R

RDF

Guest
*sigh*
I've done it again... and now I'm feeling crap - again.
just got off the phone after being talked down in price for my skills/service.
It happens every time.
I quote them a price... they ask for better.
straight away I fold and give them a cheap price that I'm not happy with but I know they'll go for.
They go away more than happy, I'm sitting here feeling like shit and don't even want to do the job now.

By the way, if it just comes down to them guilting you into providing your time on the cheap, then it helps to have a few stock phrases at your fingertips.

For example: "I'd love to help you and provide the service cheaper, but I have a lot of overhead in the form of a mortgage and four hungry mouths to feed. If I go any lower on the price, it's not worth doing the job at all."

In other words, guilt them back.

Or: "Well I'm pretty busy now, and I can't justify taking your job at a discount and turning away other work at full price. My wife would have my hide. If you want, we can wait off six months until things are slower and I can consider taking your job then. Or I can do a partial job now and then complete the job at a later date when you have the rest of the money."

Again, I like offering choices. In the latter case, if you can give the client some alternatives, then it puts the ball back in the client's court. It lets you off the hook as far as making a sacrifice for the client and forces the client to make a sacrifice if they really want low-cost services.

I understand that not everyone can pay full price. But it doesn't follow that I have to be the one to make the sacrifice in order for them to have the service. If you can provide some alternatives that put the sacrifice back on them, maybe you can work out something that everyone can live with.

Again, just suggestions.
 

Helfeather

New member
Joined
Sep 15, 2007
Messages
47
MBTI Type
IXTX
Negotiating is really fun.

The most important thing to remember is to know EXACTLY what you want and how long you're willing to settle, then aim high!
 

CzeCze

RETIRED
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
8,975
MBTI Type
GONE
Tips

Coming from an ENFP with sales experience -- you can go high and be sneaky. If you think you will fold, quote MUCH HIGHER than you know they are willing to except. If yuo think you can stick to your guns, aim slightly higher.

If you try the strategy of making customers think they are getting a discount -- \keep your true target price private and always hold some cards. During customer interaction DO NOT focus on price and don't let the customer steer the conversation to the 'bottom line' and THEIR budget.

Focus the convo on your deliverables, the QUALITY, the great effect your services have on their business, how LUCKY they are to have you. And you know their business/needs so well and the trends of the industry that you are almost shocked that they don't even realize that they need you. how in the world will they stay in business/keep up with the joneses/not get duped by the next big curve in the industry if they DON'T have you?

If they ask you why you are so expensive tell them that THEIR business and THEIR lives and time are worth having a high quality person such as yourself assisting them. Or tell them 'This is what it takes for me to provide you with a quality service.' Period

When you quote really high and when they try to lowball you, you'll end up with the exact price you wanted and they will be happy thinking they got a discount.

:)

Hope this helps...
 
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