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[Fi] Issues you have with Fi types

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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May 31, 2009
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14,497
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You're right. No they don't just take emotion at face value. I think that they do try to put themselves in other's shoes, but they maybe tend to go more from the experiences of other similar people/circumstances they have known more than focussing on their own experiences to guide them.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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Jeffster, please jump in! You and Halla are actually the only SP posters of any sort I can think of off hand, so it's nothin' personal!
 

statuesquechica

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sx/so
[Also, when I was in the Natural Helpers program at school [sort of like a peer mediation group], upon looking back at the types that comprised a majority of the Fi users, their biggest obstacle toward being an effective listener and mediator was a tendency to reframe others' problems as analogous to their own, which resulted in the person with problems feeling like they weren't being listened to [whereas my problem was typically not caring enough and trying to solve everybody's problems. They had a tough time with me because I was the only NTP in the group].

I am somewhere on the INFJ/INFP spectrum...when I take those cognitive process tests it shows Fi=Fe so I am still unclear what "type" I embody most. I do know that my Fi level is high, and I have been guilty of the above bolded statement, especially when the person is close to me and I am literally "feeling" their pain/frustration/anger and I want to connect with them, to share that burden with them. I want to share that understanding with the other person, perhaps too hastily, and then not listen as carefully as I should when they speak. It is something immediate and automatic as Udog so aptly described in their post.

I think my work as an advocate has allowed me to develop both my Fi and Fe because I have to be able to recognize rights violations and empathize with the individuals I work with, but I also have to be able to work within an established system to bring about change. I can't be so unreasonable and so rigid that I won't acknowledge someone else's idea or belief system, even though they present it from the side of the "system."

I actually very much enjoy bouncing ideas off other people because I feel my original idea is improved and strengthened; they can play the devil's advocate better than I can because I am too emotionally invested in my idea or presentation. Also, because my Fi can be so strong, I value other people at times pulling me back with the more practical aspects of a problem. From other people's perspective, I have done "kooky" things related to my Fi, but I always try to get a holistic view of the situation before actually acting on it (perhaps that is my Ti).

Anyway, it is interesting to start to identify this "feeling aspect", inwardly and outwardly, that has played such a large part of my life. For me, anything I directly (or indirectly) experience is felt first and foremost within my body; I then proceed to reach out to others to share/resolve/acknowledge those feelings. I would find it far more difficult to have such intense feelings internally and have no way to dispel them. Often, the only way I have been able to deal with Fi is connect to other people with action-oriented personalities. Interesting to consider...thanks for all the amazing insight provided on this thread.
 

cascadeco

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I think when you start talking in terms of feelings you're digressing a bit from what he actually said. He said they tended to reframe other people's problems in such a way as to make them analogous to their own, not their feelings. Extreme eg "My dad is an alcoholic and my mom is a crack-whore. I haven't eaten in 3 days." "Ah, that's like the time I forgot to bring my lunch money to school. Let me tell you what I learned from that experience." That's my understanding of what he said, anyway. Which is a definite pitfall for INFPs in my experience, though more so for immature ones who assume more.

As for Fi-users imagining how they themselves would feel in a given situation and projecting it onto others, surely that's the only possible basis for empathy? Isn't that very nearly the definition of empathy? Are you saying that the Fi-user make assumptions based on role-playing themselves into the context, whereas Fe-users divorce the emotions from the context? Personally I start off by imagining how I would feel in the situation (based mostly on past experiences), but I'm well aware that the way I react to things is different from how most people react to things. Some situations which most people brush off stop me in my tracks, and other situations which devastate others don't affect me much at all. So though I start off by putting myself in someone else's shoes, I do evaluate how their reaction to the situation appears to differ from my imagined reaction to the situation. I'll still look for the emotions I expect even if they aren't being displayed, though. If someone has just lost their father and is showing cheerfulness I won't take that at face-value, for instance. Surely Fe-users operate similarly though? They don't just take evinced emotion at face-value, do they?

Thanks for explaining! What you describe doesn't sound at all dissimilar to what I would do. Like I said, I was just needing clarification re. what I'd read and then interpreted about Fi.

Also the distinction you make in the first paragraph re. feelings vs. problems is a good one. thanks.
 

seeker22

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Apr 14, 2009
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I've found with the Fi types I know that they are outwardly warmer and more demonstrative than me, yet inwardly more distant... but even to the ones I am close to I feel held at arm's length.

I'm an ENFP and this describes me PERFECTLY.

I am very friendly, engaging, and warm to everyone - but highly selective about who I truly let *in.* I keep most people at arm's length inwardly, until I trust them verrryy much and feel safe to be vulnerable with them.

I can see how this might confuse people - because they assume warmth = let's be friends.

So yes, you can definitely hit a brick wall with me.

I also notice people often mistake me for a Thinker, not a Feeler - mainly I believe because I keep my feelings to myself, but enjoy discussing thoughts, ideas, concepts, etc verbally/outwardly. Feeling wise, I keep my cards close to my chest.

And yes, I have been told I keep a certain psychological/emotional distance, while at the same time giving off a warm vibe. So basically, I end up sending mixed signals without really intending to.

Again, I think it confuses people. Because I am warm and engaging, they believe I am interested in starting a friendship or whatever, and then I go poof, and they are left scratching their heads going "I don't get it?? I thought we totally connected." Yes, my interest and curiosity was true and genuine. However, it does not necessarily mean I want to pursue anything beyond that moment in time that we shared.

I think the Fi can make someone more difficult to "read."
 

Udog

Seriously Delirious
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I can see the issues that arise with Fi wanting to be validated, appreciated, and yet still remain hidden. It seems counter-productive.
 

Synthetic Darkness

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Fi has the strongest and most universal personal values.

That's just my personal problem with DomFi's I'm someone who is very flexible I've seen that many DomFi's aren't as flexible especially when they believe something to be against their value system. There was also something that WonkaVision said on Vent about those who have a dominate judging function (Ti/Te/Fe/Fi) versus those who have a dominate percieving function (Ne/Ni/Se/Si) I supposed its pretty controversal but it made sense to me because I've noticed that those who are much more likely to judge would be someone who was DomFi than opposed to someone who was DomSe or DomNe but yeah the only problem I have with DomFi is the fact that I don't understand them very much but other than that I like you guys =) I just think that if we were to ever get into a debate one of us would walk away fustrated.
 

sculpting

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why does Fi always replay things back through the viewpoint of the Fi user? It is self centric. Are there paralells to the way Ti process data for primary Ti users here?

Fi mirrors what it perceives to be thier discomfort, then responds from the perspective of "I". Once I felt this way....once I experienced that....

emo stimulus goes in-self reference comes out....what is the point of the self refernce in the conversational exchange between two Fi users? Is it a verbal exchange of empathy?
 

OrangeAppled

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That's just my personal problem with DomFi's I'm someone who is very flexible I've seen that many DomFi's aren't as flexible especially when they believe something to be against their value system.

Or from another perspective, dominant perceiving people seem to have pliable morals which may also seem like a sheer lack of integrity to a Fi-dom.
 

Scott N Denver

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I would like to advocate for the potential power of Fi and try to explain its inner workings. I highly recommend Lenore Thomson's Personality Type in this regard.

Fi seeks universal values. "Respect all life" is a good example. Such universal values transcend both oneself and one's culture. Also, being universal in their nature we don't need to ask other people if they agree or whatever [Fidelia, you asked about Fi needing others approvals like Fe does, or however you phrased that]. I don't need to go ask Suzy "Hey, I was wondering, 'respect all life', you think that's a good idea? No, yeah me either. So anyways I like your blouse!" Nor do we say "respect all life. Well, except for people taller than 6'2", or all life except for people with green eyes cuz we know that they just don't count." That's not universal enough. If Suzy disagrees with my "respect all life" value, I'll just think she's not particularly highly-morally-developed. But I don't think that I'm wrong because she's thinks I'm wrong, or even because my culture says I'm wrong.

Where Fi gets tricky is each owner has their own personal values. What applies to me may not apply to Blackcat for example, and vice versa. Also, some INFP's Fi values may be very unrealistic "We should all sit in flower-filled meadows and dance and sing and write love poetry, screw capitolism you selfish bastards!" comes to mind as an example. Also, authenticity is very important to Fi. I can't stand here and say "Respect all life" and then be like "I'm bored, I'm going to go run over a cat with a lawn mower", thats not being authentic to "respect all life". Note: An INTJ classmate described engaging in such behavior to me, it earned him instant asshole/moral-scum status in my mind.

Also, it can be VERY hard for us to pinpoint our Fi valuers, or else saying them just sounds, I don't know, odd or obvious or unilluminating or whatnot. "Its important to be a good person because it is", not really to helpful or informative or explanational huh?

The potential mega-strength of Fi: The ability to have very evolved universal values that "lead the pack". Think "all adults should have the right to vote" leading to womens suffrage for example. "Treat all people with respect" "No one is beyond redemption", developing humanistic psychology and helping people to "achieve their full potential". The deepest levels of compassion for other people arise from the INF's. I'm not going to try to claim that Gandhi or Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. were INFP's, but focus on how they took a value or idea and "fought" for it non-violently and changed the world in the process. High emotional/moral/ethical development and manifesting it into the world. That is what we can bring to the table. Especially our "warrior" INF's, or those willing to "fight" for their values.
 

Scott N Denver

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Quoting from above-mentioned book: "Extraverted Feeling encompasses what is averagely attainable in a particular social system. The goals it encourages are not transcendently fulfilling; they're collectively appropriate."

"[Fi] bypasses structural considerations and puts human value first. Such discrimination is unquestionable illogical, but its in no way irrational. Indeed, to place human value above statistical risk isn't possible without the ability to reason."

"[Fi] is not a substitute for Extraverted Judegement. It won't solve the analytic problems that logic and causal reasoning are designed to address, and it won't establish a basis for predictable social interactions. But, conversely, it addresses aspects of human reality that Extraverted reasoning cannot."

"...ENFJ's are Extraverted Felling types, who act as social advocates, They help people to realize their potential in a way that society will ultimately accept. INFP's are advocates of the inner world, the values that connect us to other living beings in a fundamental way. They go where they fell needed, helping to nurture these values or to support people who have fallen through the cracks of a prevailing social system."

"[Fi's] recognize by way of their own experience an unconditional value that links them with humanity as a whole..."

paraphrasing: What makes Fi values confouding or irrational to others is that these values can't be "causally deduced from the objective situation"

"[Fi dom's] are not always seen as heroic, but the cumulative effects of their actions accomplish extraordinary things."

"Their values have no predictable reference points in law and social convention. They cut through all that to the heart of the matter"

"Extraverted Feeling presides over social values-current ideas about how relationships in the community are best conducted. Introverted Feeling determines subjective values-convictions about how a life is best lived."


"[INFP's] realize that being responsible to their values isn't about fighting what exists; its about building, recognizing that they can do things, want to do things, that might not even occur to others."

"INFP's sometimes underestimate their strengths because there are so many problems in the world that can't be solved by changing people's hearts. But they shouldn't. The effects of their decisions are often incalculable, renewing people's faith in human nature."
 

Virtual ghost

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Yes I have/had certain problems with FPs since I have ENFP mother and ISFP father.

So for my entire life I am "forced" to feel and have strong value system what has caused exactly the opposite effect. What means that this is the main reason why I have unusually low Fi for an INTJ. There is no hard feeling is the mix on both sides it is just that we are very different as people.
 

Wonkavision

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That's just my personal problem with DomFi's I'm someone who is very flexible I've seen that many DomFi's aren't as flexible especially when they believe something to be against their value system. There was also something that WonkaVision said on Vent about those who have a dominate judging function (Ti/Te/Fe/Fi) versus those who have a dominate percieving function (Ne/Ni/Se/Si) I supposed its pretty controversal but it made sense to me because I've noticed that those who are much more likely to judge would be someone who was DomFi than opposed to someone who was DomSe or DomNe......

Hey, thanks for validating my theory. :)

The fact that it rarely happens to me makes it all the more special! :cheese:
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
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why does Fi always replay things back through the viewpoint of the Fi user? It is self centric. Are there paralells to the way Ti process data for primary Ti users here?

This is true of Ti, to a degree, just the criteria is different. You can use Einstein, for example. His reluctance to accept Quantum Mechanics, and the existence of an indeterminate universe, could possibly be explained by the theory of QM not adhering to his Ti's subjective principles of what he thought a fundamental theory should be. Hence, his obsession to create a field theory [remember, he also loved the concept of fields in the first place, so he was naturally inclined to explain and judge data using that principle].

Ti always runs data through checks against those internal principles, however the difference is that they're typically impersonal and detached from a human value standpoint.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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INFJ
We've had company the last day or two so I've had less time to read and participate. I really appreciate all the points made on this last page though and will chew over them, as well as catching up on the rest of what I've missed here. Good stuff here!
 
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