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[MBTI General] Beethoven....an INFJ?

INTJMom

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I would love to think Beethoven is an INFJ, but for all my experience with studying his life and music, i have to say that he isn't. He is one of my favorite composers and i have analyzed more scores of his than i can count (i have a doctorate in music) He does seem Ni dominant, but the man had close to zero Fe. He offended people a lot, and not because he was angry, but just had no patience for human nonsense. The emotional world is also very deeply Fi imo. I have to stand by my original position that he is an INTJ. People often underestimate just how passionate an INTJ can be.
...
I quite agree with you. In private especially, we can be quite passionate. I just this hour read the transcript of the letter to his immortal beloved, and it was definitely something I could have written. I then watched an excerpt of the movie where he plays Moonlight Sonata with his ear on the pianoforte, and now I am hooked! I must see the film!

I did a search to see if anyone had posted about his type... and here I am. :smile:

I didn't know you had a doctorate in music, Toonia! That's awesome! Do you teach?

Do you have a theory as to who "Immortal Beloved" was?
 

Jaded Idealist

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Jul 28, 2009
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INFJ
INTJ seems like it would be a possibility, but still...why do many here all of a sudden assume that it matches him better than INFJ? On multiple MBTI websites I've seen him listed as INFJ, but never INTJ. What exactly makes him "stick out" as one? Perhaps "immortal beloved" letters were all the rage back in his day, but it otherwise doesn't appear very INTJ to write one.
 

amelie

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May 23, 2009
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XNFJ
My experience with my INTJ's says that they love a good debate, but maybe that's just the ones I know. I don't know anything about Beethoven really, but the letter sounds more F than T to me - it's quite full of emotional words.
 

SuperFob

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I don't think he was a T. Aggressiveness, moodiness, unsociability etc. hardly seem like a good enough reason to indicate T over F in my opinion.

One thing's for certain, he had A LOT of trouble relating to people and getting along with them. And that's another thing that leads to many F's getting mistyped as T's. An insecure, unhealthy F could be every bit as reclusive and socially awkward as one might expect a T to be. That applies to INFJ's especially who can be so, for lack of a word, weird and impossible to understand that they can be near impossible to get along with.

I have 120+ pages of letters written by Beethoven sitting in front of me as I write this, and he Fe's constantly in them. Here's just a taste of the kind of emoting he constantly does:

"So now I want no more of his
friendship! I have only found two friends in the world with whom I never
had a misunderstanding; but what men these were! One is dead, the other
still lives. Although for nearly six years past we have seen nothing of
each other, yet I know that I still hold the first place in his heart, as
he does in mine [see No. 12]. The true basis of friendship is to be found
in sympathy of heart and soul. I only wish you could have read the letter I
wrote to Breuning, and his to me. No! never can he be restored to his
former place in my heart. The man who could attribute to his friend so base
a mode of thinking, and could himself have recourse to so base a mode of
acting towards him, is no longer worthy of my friendship."
 

Drezoryx

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He does seem Ni dominant, but the man had close to zero Fe. He offended people a lot, and not because he was angry, but just had no patience for human nonsense.

Fe out of control would also show similar symptoms of writing of people rapidly.
 

SuperFob

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INFJ
Another interesting thing about these letters written by Beethoven. I have a collection of them filling up 123 pages on Microsoft Word. I did a search of the whole document, showing that Beethoven used the word "heart" over 40 times in the collection of letters, and he also used the word "love" 47 times.

I'll check out "misery," too. That seems to be a word he uses quite a bit.
 

Lily Bart

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Mar 27, 2009
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INFP
Beethoven was the first of the Romantics -- how much more NF can you get? The intensity of his passions is also very INFJ. The Romantic emphasis on the individual as the center of all expression, of all meaning, of all that is good and right -- again, this is the INFJ unshackled from all the constraints of society. The mathematical precision that frames the intense Romanticism of his music strikes me as the ultimate expression of INFJ-ness. The rebelliousness, the innovation, the refusal of the spirit to be broken -- he's the ultimate INFJ!
 

SuperFob

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The mathematical precision that frames the intense Romanticism of his music
That makes sense. That's the thing about INFJ work I've seen. It's often the Ni+Fe combo creating some kind of romantic effect. In some cases, though, an INFJ with a well-developed tertiary Ti can underly that romanticism with technical mastery every bit as precise as what you often see dominating INTJ work.

Beethoven's music was much more F than T, though. It was more about creating beauty and emotionally stimulating tunes as opposed to the more intellectualized music of Bach.
 

Silly_Siren

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Beethoven did not take his hat off for the prince.
Goethe did.

I suggest you settle with Goethe.

I know! And Goethe was as arrogant as they come! both cool dudes regardless. :cool:

Beethoven, had no Fe like was said before so he's definitely not INFJ. He could be ISFP, it is the composer type. I could buy that, but he really seems more like an INTJ.
 

Stanton Moore

morose bourgeoisie
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Mar 4, 2009
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I think Beethoven defies type...

I know he had a reputation for being a curmudgeon, but I think he was a feeler and a thinker, almost equally. His harmonies are very intense and precise, but his music is not 'heady' or super-ration, like Bach can be (strict rules of counterpoint); to me it's passionate above all, but with a very precise architecture. For example, The Große Fuge is very harmonically complex, yet it's also very passionate and full of fire.

IMO, like all great people, Beethoven is not easy to type because of his evolution. And he's a hero of mine...
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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Beethoven's music was much more F than T, though. It was more about creating beauty and emotionally stimulating tunes as opposed to the more intellectualized music of Bach.
There are two distinct cultural settings for Beethoven and Bach which account for some differences. Also MBTI designations are limited in addressing certain issues especially those that are steeped in integration. Artistic expression is the culmination of synthesis on various levels. Much MBTI discussions are about simplification, categorization, and isolating out features. In the end I like talking about Beethoven as a person and composer more than relating him to a particular type. I will say his intelligence and ability to create complex musical systems might be paralleled, but not clearly surpassed. My main point is to not overlook the structural integrity of his work because of its emotional and dramatic appeal. The two concepts are intertwined and cannot be separated. I would say the same for Bach.

After studying with Haydn and writing his first symphony, Beethoven went back through a thorough study of counterpoint. He had arrived as a composer, but his technical prowess did not match his inner vision. He was rigorous with himself as a composer and reworked passages relentlessly.

There is also an anecdote about an aristocratic woman begging him at point of tears to play for her after dinner. He wouldn't do it in response to such a display.His whole life was faced with obstacles of one sort or another. His relationship with the world was somewhat adversarial and when the vulnerability of his deafness started to become apparent, he left for the country. One famous quote of his is, "There will be a thousand princes, but one Beethoven" - which was true. The critics of his ninth symphony were brutal, unfair, and their response proved unfounded in years to come.

Beethoven's music is structurally more complex than Bach or Mozart. He was the first to extend the symphonic form in length and integrated the musical patterns between movements not just within a single movement. He always starts with a simple, direct theme that is expanded upon to a point of complexity not seen before his time. His process can be compared to starting with a seed and growing into an impressive oak tree. The relationships between the pitches can be described as fractal patterns. For an example, if the main theme emphasizes C D and G in the melody, then the primary harmonic centers for the piece might move from the key of C major, modulating to D (or d minor), and then to G. What occurs on the small scale also occurs on the large-scale. This is also true of Mozart and to a lesser degree Bach. It is mostly associated with tonality and sonata-forms, but is still more present in Beethoven than Schubert.

Contemporaries that had more lyrical warmth in their expression include Schubert, Schumann, and Mendelssohn. Schubert's melodic warmth defies analysis to a large degree. It is that subjective, emotional realm. When Schubert develops patterns he relies more on repetition than development when compared to Beethoven. Most every note in Beethoven can be analyzed and explained as part of the larger structure. This is also true for Mozart and Bach. On a personal level they both move me equally, but that is not entirely relevant when analyzing their music. Romanticism is a cultural movement, so one has to evaluate an individual within that context. Language use of the time was quite different from now and might leave all people of the time as Feelers. The Baroque was much less individualistic in its expression of emotion, and so any composer from the 19th century is going to appear more emotionally expressive than in the 17th century based on our own cultural values. There are personal deviations in preferences and responses, but it generally holds true.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Here is one more short analogy that can summarize the relationship between structure and complexity and the emotional world of Beethoven's expression.

Beethoven as a musical architect built structures which were larger, more complex, and filled with more inter-relationships than those who came before him. It is because of the certainty of these structures that they can hold greater dramatic expression than those before him. His music is like watching a storm at sea and later realizing that it was only possible to experience it because the ship you were standing on was structurally sound.
 

Arclight

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He was an ISFP..
He had zero Fe.. he was rude and obnoxious.
He was an idiot savant.

He was not an INFJ.
 

wildcat

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