[MBTI General] INFJ Compatibility - Why the INFJ/ENTP dynamic is hands down the best.

[digesthisickness]

I half want to say that whether or not an INFJ/ENTP pairing is possible comes down to this^. I thought it was funny, just now, when I read this- my first thought was "That sounds like way too much work"- and I scrolled down to see cafe had that same response. Following the suggestion in the quote is easier said than done, for us. I think I'd probably need to be on 50 mg of Adderal, and also probably jacked up on cocaine, to be able to actually feel like it's a doable suggestion. And the extent to which an ENP believes it truly is difficult/distressing to pummeled with a machine gun splatter of Ne (and is *able* to put a cap on it when it gets distressing, instead of simply trying to get rid of the problem with even more Ne- by 'explaining' why and how it shouldn't be distressing) is probably the extent to which I can see a relationship working. [And yes, I know there's some reciprocate about INJs acknowledging ENP needs- but I'm just saying the above quote somehow, imo, summarizes the difficulty from this end.]

I WISH it were even remotely easy for me to do what's suggested in the quote.

Oh, I would never, ever advice such a thing to anyone speaking seriously with an ENTP. Or... well, ANY one if they really do want to understand something. Anything about another.

I was making a bit of fun about how some people just refuse to listen or be open to another's perspective while claiming they're doing just that.

 

[1487610420]

I was making a bit of fun about how some people just refuse to listen or be open to another's perspective while claiming they're doing just that.

 

[Winds of Thor]

I half want to say that whether or not an INFJ/ENTP pairing is possible comes down to this^. I thought it was funny, just now, when I read this- my first thought was "That sounds like way too much work"- and I scrolled down to see cafe had that same response. Following the suggestion in the quote is easier said than done, for us. I think I'd probably need to be on 50 mg of Adderal, and also probably jacked up on cocaine, to be able to actually feel like it's a doable suggestion. And the extent to which an ENP believes it truly is difficult/distressing to pummeled with a machine gun splatter of Ne (and is *able* to put a cap on it when it gets distressing, instead of simply trying to get rid of the problem with even more Ne- by 'explaining' why and how it shouldn't be distressing) is probably the extent to which I can see a relationship working. [And yes, I know there's some reciprocate about INJs acknowledging ENP needs- but I'm just saying the above quote somehow, imo, summarizes the difficulty from this end.]

I WISH it were even remotely easy for me to do what's suggested in the quote.

ZBee, sryusly, listen to me. Thinking things through is NOT always the best approach to a problem. In fact, thinking heavily can BE THE problem. There are other ways that problems get solved.

Stopping and considering advice may not be the easiest thing to do. I have not wanted to hear these things. Even if feels are all aligned against No-analysis paralysis, doing so may be a good thing.

Let me ask you something..What classes in college did you enjoy the most? From which classes have you felt the most accomplishment? From which ones afterward came feelings of the most achievement?

It was the difficult ones.

The ones you pushed through when things got difficult and you succeeded despite the struggles. We need to learn, but we need that strengthening that comes from stressing ourselves just enough to grow a little more.

TL;DR: Sometimes you gotta just say 'fuck it'

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Okay, yeah, [MENTION=8244]Eilonwy[/MENTION], I prolly shouldn’t have responded. I’d thought I understood at least that single post I quoted, but I’m just missing too much in not reading surrounding posts. Or something. I was trying to get at something about the exchange between you and March, thinking if I’d read both yours and March’s posts it’d be enough. But we’re just talking past each other here, missing each others points, apparently.

Oh, I would never, ever advice such a thing to anyone speaking seriously with an ENTP. Or... well, ANY one if they really do want to understand something. Anything about another.

I was making a bit of fun about how some people just refuse to listen or be open to another's perspective while claiming they're doing just that.

I guess the fact that I thought you were even a tiny bit serious (obviously using that exact dialogue seemed a facetious suggestion and wouldn’t work, but I thought maybe it was a suggestion to be more aggressive generally) is maybe testimony to how hard it is to keep up with the word-jockeying. (I dated an ENTP for eight years. And your post.....wasn't too far off as a summary of what it felt like to deal with him a lot of times.)

 

[Werebudgie]

This is something that has come up again and again and again- pointing out there is another point of view. The reason it’s puzzling to me (that it comes up again and again) is because it seems like a given. It’s obvious that there are other points of view. There are *a lot* of other points of view out there.

Not following the sub-thread very well, but if I read this *just as a description for discussion among INFJs or people truly seeking to understand us in the context I wrote about earlier,* it resonates a lot with me. Yes, this is a given for me too - obvious to the point of, I don't know, um, extreme obviousness.

So this thing about there being another point of view….I don’t know, it seems strange to have it repeatedly pointed out because that much seems obvious. It’s about priorities and whether or not someone else’s POV is worth investing my own time and effort into understanding. (I believe, for many of us) It isn’t about 'realizing' there are other points of view out there, that much is obviously true. It’s about figuring out which ones to invest in. Just because other points of view exist doesn’t mean it’s worth investing in them.

^ ^ ^ This this THIS! It seems to me that it is precisely because we are so aware of all the POVs around that we need to make these distinctions. Seems to me that this is Ni-dom (fluid shifting of perspective) + Fe-aux (orientation to external-to-us values material which can show up as various POVs).

I wonder how often it is that people whose POV we decide isn't worth investing in don't want to accept that that is the actual situation, so generalize it into "You need to understand there are other POVs." I mean, I'm thinking it may be harder to accept that I'm extremely aware of many POVs but that I have decided based on what makes sense for me and my energy investment that their specific POV isn't worth the investment of energy and attention. It's not about Truth-Capital-T, its about "your POV is one among so very many, and right now I've decided it's not worth my time/energy/attention to focus deeply from the space of your particular POV." Yeah, I can see how it could be more palatable to make it about "INFJs don't see multiple POVs" than to take in the fact that yeah, we really do know that, we just aren't interested in yours in particular - not because it shines with special truth we can't accept, but because it just doesn't have utility value or a basis of reciprocal respect, or whatever it is that we've found works for us in the ongoing process of useful shifting of perspective as Ni-dom/Fe-aux. The first approach (framing it as about truth and our resistance to same) has some sort of attempted universal authority, the second doesn't give that kind of authority because it's more localized. So I can see the individual feel-good appeal of it. It's just not accurate.

(and also, how often do we say this kind of thing so bluntly to other people as I am deliberately saying it here?)

 

[Winds of Thor]

Nothing seems accurate to INFJs consistently. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Amargith]

Keep in mind that to an Ne-dom who lives a pattern recognition world, where shifting povs and looking at things from different angles is second nature, you guys look occasionally mind numbingly static and stuck in your Ni vision. I'm not going to deny you see other information, but the way you dismiss it and the things you miss....have a way of making us occasionally wanna ram our head through the wall - that is, when we're not working together as a team. Then Ne-Ni is one *hell* of a combo.

 

[Werebudgie]

Nothing seems accurate to INFJs with consistency. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.

And this is IMO a great example of why these threads on this site don't work except to provide material for those who are into the drama and ick that's raised as a result. This is a great example of why it's compelling to me to move more and more toward the perspective about MBTI/cognitive functions I wrote about earlier:

I'm learning a lot on this site about the limitations and problems that can come with certain uses of the MBTI/cognitive process framework. While I don't know where I'll end up and thus reserve the right to disagree with myself later, I'm currently heading toward the perspective that the only contexts in which I see this framework as truly useful are:

1. As a tool for self-understanding related to information processing
2. As a tool for mutual understanding in relationships/connections in which there is genuine love and/or care, shared commitment to using the tool only for the goal of mutual understanding to support the health of that connection, and a related complete and utter lack of using the framework as a weapon or other resource for fighting within that process. Also about information processing.

eta: in case it's not obvious, that second one is not the situation in many of the interactions here

 

[Werebudgie]

Keep in mind that to an Ne-dom who lives a pattern recognition world, where shifting povs and looking at things from different angles is second nature, you guys look occasionally mind numbingly static and stuck in your Ni vision. I'm not going to deny you see other information, but the way you dismiss it and the things you miss....have a way of making us occasionally wanna ram our head through the wall - that is, when we're not working together as a team. Then Ne-Ni is one *hell* of a combo.

But keep in mind that what "shifting POVs" actually are to us as Ni-doms isn't the same as what it is for you as a Ne-dom. Not the same at all. Here's a description from the recently posted type descriptions on this site:

As an introverted perception function, dominant Ni is not making any kind of value judgments. It's only taking in impressions--as many different possible interpretations of the significance of any given idea or event as possible. That may sound similar to Ne on the surface, but it's not--Ne is picking up a lot of different events and ideas at once and looking for common threads between them; Ni is picking one idea or event at a time and examining ("from a clean slate", as Yukawa says) every angle of every component of that one thing in order to find any as-of-yet untried interpretations that might cause us to view the whole issue in an entirely new light.

While Ne explodes into a million new places from one starting point, Ni is much more comfortable "imploding" into an overarching interpretation that combines many different disparate elements into one more cohesive whole. Often this results in the keen ability to pare down many different apparently disparate options into the best and most effective option for the singular vision that the INFJ's judgment functions have decided is the best use of time.

Does that clarify what I mean at all?

And again, for the larger discussion more than specifically or only in response to you, Amargith, I want to be very clear that my friendship with my actual ENTP friend doesn't run into all this drama-of-conflict-and-misunderstanding generated in this thread on this site, despite Ni-dom versus Ne-dom differences. We are whole people to each other in a way that doesn't seem to happen much here on this site in threads like this, and what I mean by that is that we see each other as people first, type second, and the type talk is about good faith understanding in a context of existing good will. etc.

 

[cafe]

Nothing seems accurate to INFJs consistently. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.

I kind of see POVs the same way I see belief in God: you can't really know which is the right one, so you just pick the one you like best and go with it. That's oversimplified, of course, but not by a lot.

I can see the POVs. I try to see as many as possible, but you can't act upon all of them. You simply can't. So you grab a few that you like and/or that work and proceed accordingly. Usually I prioritize the POVs that help me take care of my responsibilities and maintain my sanity. Stuff that interferes with that kinda gets thrown out the car window and I don't do a lot of looking back.

 

[Amargith]

But keep in mind that what "shifting POVs" actually are to us as Ni-doms isn't the same as what it is for you as a Ne-dom. Not the same at all. Here's a description from the recently posted type descriptions on this site:



Does that clarify what I mean at all?

(and again, for the larger discussion more than for you, Amargith, I want to be very clear that my friendship with my actual ENTP friend doesn't run into all this drama generated in this thread on this site, despite Ni-dom versus Ne-dom differences. We are whole people to each other in a way that doesn't seem to happen much here on this site in threads like this, and what I mean by that is that we see each other as people first, type second, and the type talk is about good faith understanding in a context of existing good will. etc).

I'm aware of this - I live with one. We make a kick-ass team due to this. But that is also because he has realised that he focuses on the 'main lines' and develops them thoroughly whereas I hunt down options he never thought of before. What I'm trying to say is that, while I very much know that you are open to options within the idea itself, you can be very hung up on the main idea itself - which to us can seem...rigid. However, that does not mean there is anything wrong with that preference or outlook on life. There are 8 different functions and all of them are an equally valid look on life.

I was the one btw who repped Eilonwy about this being perhaps a dominant function issue. Getting stuck in your dominant function because it feels like second nature is only normal - everyone does it to certain extent. But sure, it does help to be aware of other people using another look on life that is equally valid - especially on here, where we're limited to text-based communication only and the focus is inherently on how different we are.

Iow, yes, INxJs can get stuck in their Ni to the point where they can seem rigid and hard to talk to, just like an Fe-dom can be stuck on the priorities of its functions and so on, for each function. Hell, our bender about seeing all angles and the patterns that emerge can be construed as a dominant function fix just the same, for that matter. And yes, there is validity to honouring your dom, but being able to step out of your dominant function definitely adds a flexibility and a different view on things that can often aid in clearing up misunderstandings and dealing with situations for which your dom is maybe not as suited.

At the same time, I'm very much for honouring who you are and working with the strengths you've got - and being aware of the weaknesses that come with those strengths -, so far be it from me to make INFJs apologise for who they are and how they work.

 

[Werebudgie]

However, that does not mean there is anything wrong with that preference or outlook on life. There are 8 different functions and all of them are an equally valid look on life.

More and more my observations of the dynamics on (some parts of) this site show me how crucial this perspective is for me - the equal validity of each of the functions and for me, the function combinations. I'm really getting focused on this kind of basic respect as a necessary foundation for what I would consider a useful discussion of differences and functions and type.

At the same time, I'm very much for honouring who you are and working with the strengths you've got - and being aware of the weaknesses that come with those strengths -, so far be it from me to make INFJs apologise for who they are and how they work.

Largely because of the imbalances I see here on this site, this basic foundation of respect really is where I'm focusing more and more. It's missing here. A lot, in some threads at least. The difference between how type/function talk flows in my personal connections, and how it flows on this site in these kinds of threads is - well, actually almost shocking to me.

 

[Amargith]

We're all learning. What you consider the basic foundation of respect is something that comes naturally to you (Fe) and can be very difficult for someone else who doesn't need those 'pink bows' added and just wants to get to the core of it all. And who is to say that his preference in matters of 'respect' is any less valuable than his?

And sure, you can demand that they learn to speak with that respect first and adhere to your standard of it but that puts you at risk of dismissing the potential vital feedback or information within his words because they were packaged in a to you sub-standard way.

I get that you feel pushed into a corner right now and that something very important to you - that respect - is missing. But I did my best to present that information *with* the big pink bow and you still cherry-picked the things that would allow you to defend yourself and your pov to quote.

It is your choice whether you take it on board - nobody can make you. But I'm asking you to not forget the parts you *didn't* quote. And consider taking them on board, perhaps after this thread has cooled down.

 

[Werebudgie]

We're all learning. What you consider the basic foundation of respect is something that comes naturally to you (Fe) and can be very difficult for someone else who doesn't need those 'pink bows' added and just wants to get to the core of it all. And who is to say that his preference in matters of 'respect' is any less valuable than his?

And sure, you can demand that they learn to speak with that respect first and adhere to your standard of it but that puts you at risk of dismissing the potential vital feedback or information within his words because they were packaged in a to you sub-standard way.

I get that you feel pushed into a corner right now and that something very important to you - that respect - is missing. But I did my best to present that information *with* the big pink bow and you still cherry-picked the things that would allow you to defend yourself and your pov to quote.

It is your choice whether you take it on board - nobody can make you. But I'm asking you to not forget the parts you *didn't* quote. And consider taking them on board, perhaps after this thread has cooled down.

Ooooh, my apologies, please know that I didn't have any problem with what you wrote at all! I didn't feel pushed into a corner or that you were missing that respect I was writing about, I was attending/referring to the larger context of the thread and others like it I've seen on this site.

That said, in response to the abovequoted comment: at this stage in my own trajectory, I myself am not here looking for people to "teach" me about myself. While I understand that being teacher in this way is a role that seems ... I don't know, appealing? for some (I don't know if it is for you or not), I can say that anyone who interacts with me as if that is their task (in relation to me in particular) is on their own personal agenda/mission, rather than in thoughtful interaction with me in a significant way. I want to be clear, though, that in this I am very specifically speaking for myself.

eta: *thinking* ..... you know, is there actually some sort of implicit or explicit group cultural agreement on this site that anyone engaging here by definition (meaning, simply by virtue of their/our participation) wants others to play that kind of psychological teacher role? Like, simply by the act of participating here, am I actually saying in the site's cultural vernacular, "Please, assume I explicitly want others to tell me what they assess I don't know and/or should in their view look at about myself under the guise of 'for your own good though right now you don't consciously realize it'" teaching? Not rhetorical questions.

 

[RDF]

I'm just coming in at the end, here. Is the dispute at this point mainly about Ne vs Ni?

When I worked at a translater at one of the big international organizations I often had to translate sensitive documents, such as major diplomatic speeches, etc. With the really touchy translations, the usual routine was to have one translator do the initial translation and then have a second translator edit that initial translation.

The best combination was to have an Ne-user and an Ni-user work together. Ne-users were great at brainstorming lots of possible ways to handle a really sticky passage; Ni-users were great at taking a number of possible translations of a sticky passage and deciding which was the best one of the batch or at honing a given translation down to its most perfect expression. Ne is about innovation; Ni is about optimization.

Being an Ne-user, I really appreciated the skills of Ni-users. I worked closely with an INFJ for many years, and occasionally with an ENFJ. We would take a particularly difficult Russian passage (lots of nuances, slang, sarcasm, double meanings, folk sayings, etc.) and spend hours batting back and forth that one passage trying to find the best way to express it in English. If the translation just wasn't clicking, I could come up with a whole new approach to the passage; and the Ni-user could spot any little inaccuracy or undue slack and hone the passage to perfection.

I would get the Ni-user to enunciate precisely why they preferred one possible translation over another, and over the years I got pretty good at anticipating their needs and even doing a fair Ni analysis of a passage myself. In time I could sit down with another Ne-user and act as an Ni-user myself, i.e., by analyzing and spelling out exactly why one passage was demonstrably better than another. In the latter years I worked closely with an ENTP translator as my secondary on difficult translations, and I could feel a kind of Ni-user irritation with the ENTP as he came up with all kinds of good possible translations but seemed to be blind to nuances and qualitative differences in the various alternatives.

Anyway, I'm not sure what my point is. To me, Ne vs Ni is all just point of view. Sometimes I get a little irritated with Ni-Doms and their seeming inability to take in new approaches once they get stuck on a certain track. On the other hand, I certainly admire their sharpness on a given issue when it comes time to hone an idea down to its most perfect expression.

When Ni-Doms are complaining about a personal problem, personally I would prefer that they be a little more open to new ideas. Usually it seems like they're too invested in their current approach and they're just looking for ways to tweak their current approach, whereas I feel they need to strike out in a whole new direction if they really want a fix for their problem.

But I know from my work experiences that it's possible to bridge the gap with a little patience. The two types can learn to work together over time. In the meantime, when Perceivers (ENTPs, ENFPs, or whatever) want to influence Judgers (INFJs, INTJs), the usual advice is for the Perceiver to plant the idea and then back off and give the Judger time to consider the possibilities at their own pace.

[...]you know, is there actually some sort of implicit or explicit group cultural agreement on this site that anyone engaging here by definition (meaning, simply by virtue of their/our participation) wants others to play that kind of psychological teacher role? Like, simply by the act of participating here, am I actually saying in the site's cultural vernacular, "Please, assume I explicitly want others to tell me what they assess I don't know and/or should in their view look at about myself under the guise of 'for your own good though right now you don't consciously realize it'" teaching? Not rhetorical questions.

Fe-users like to vocalize their problems, complaints, pet peeves, etc. It's in the nature of Fe, an extroverted function: Fe-users look for appreciative listeners in order to bounce a few ideas off them. Ne-users respond by brainstorming fixes for the problem. But Ni-users don't like Ne fixes, and Fe causes them to vocalize their displeasure. Which causes the Ne-user to complain in turn that the Fe-user wants to complain and whine but won't accept helpful advice when offered. And so on.

 

[Eilonwy]

Nothing seems accurate to INFJs consistently. And it never will. The best it can get is honesty/longevity from someone who perceives the world externally. And even then they still manage to throw in some doubts.

Please, please, please tell me I'm wrong.

Best I can do at the level I'm at right now is "I don't know". Sorry about that.

 

[Eilonwy]

Keep in mind that to an Ne-dom who lives a pattern recognition world, where shifting povs and looking at things from different angles is second nature, you guys look occasionally mind numbingly static and stuck in your Ni vision. I'm not going to deny you see other information, but the way you dismiss it and the things you miss....have a way of making us occasionally wanna ram our head through the wall - that is, when we're not working together as a team. Then Ne-Ni is one *hell* of a combo.

I can see glimpses of this. I can definitely see the "ram your head through a wall" part. I don't see what I miss, but I know I'm missing it. I'm not all the way there yet. Not sure if I can get there or not.

 

[Eilonwy]

But I did my best to present that information *with* the big pink bow and you still cherry-picked the things that would allow you to defend yourself and your pov to quote.

It is your choice whether you take it on board - nobody can make you. But I'm asking you to not forget the parts you *didn't* quote. And consider taking them on board, perhaps after this thread has cooled down.

I can see this happening. I'm sure I probably still do it--the cherry-picking. Sometimes I can see that I did it after the fact, sometimes I still need it pointed out to me. The learning takes time and practice for me, and lots of patience from all of you.

 

[Amargith]

I can see this happening. I'm sure I probably still do it--the cherry-picking. Sometimes I can see that I did it after the fact, sometimes I still need it pointed out to me. The learning takes time and practice for me, and lots of patience from all of you.

It will - and we'll need the same from you to do the same with our dominant function, trust me. And of course, it is your choice (and ours for that matter) whether or not you want to make that investment in potential personal growth, if you're ready and if it would be beneficial to you in your stage of life atm. It can do wonders for broadening ones view and inter type communication, I feel, but there are other things in life that can take priority, for sure. I also believe one should never have to apologise for the preferences in life one has, just as ignoring other's preferences is likely not going to be that productive either. So, please, don't feel like you have to apologise for being Ni-dom, and don't force yourself to acquiesce more than you feel ready for - just see if you can be open to the feedback and process it at your leisure.

Which you seem to be doing

 

[Eilonwy]

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION], the main problem with me not being able to explain properly is that I don't actually see from another pov atm. I'm not sure if it's possible for me to completely see from another pov, but I'm still working towards that. The best I can do right now is see some of the patterns that have been pointed out to me. I can see my own behaviors--sometimes on my own, sometimes after the fact, sometimes when pointed out to me, sometimes not at all. I'm not sure how much I can actually work out on my own, or how much I need more external input, but I do definitely need external input and guidance or I can get stuck or get off on the wrong track. It's also a much slower process for me without the external input.

Like the recent posts have said, I don't see the possibilities, so working them out on my own is a long, slow process. And the emotional/judgmental stuff gets in the way, too. Fe gets in the way. I mean, how freaking long did it take to see one simple definition and internalize it? Slow processing area for us. Concept didn't click. We need our hands held in certain areas, but we don't like that because it's difficult and humbling and we're used to that feeling of having things click and just getting it. We don't "just get" this.

And we make the mistake of thinking that the way it's presented will make it easier to understand. Maybe in some cases--maybe to get us to be open enough to hear--but the way it's presented isn't the main reason we can't hear it. The main reason we can't hear it is that it's not the way we think. It's not just a modification of the way we think. It's different. Some of it I'm still trying to wrap my head around because I just don't operate that way at all and have nothing in my experiences to compare to. I may only be able to come up with some rough approximation, just enough so that I can somewhat understand.

But Pe has been forced to learn this stuff from their end because it's pretty much a Je world. They've been dealing with our basic pov since birth, probably. That's why I keep saying that I'm pretty sure they understand. At least they understand our pov a lot better than we understand theirs.

ETA: Actually, I've been blown away by the understanding and patience I've been shown throughout the whole process. Really, my own pov was so narrow (and can still use some expanding).