[MBTI General] INFJ Compatibility - Why the INFJ/ENTP dynamic is hands down the best.

[the state i am in]

mmh . i dont know guys.

In my case I am particularly vulnerable to infjs overall, whether friends or romantic interests.
But I can't really afford to be vulnerable. it breaks me, and it can take me years to pick up the pieces. As a risk taker when it comes to things that have potential to redefine my life I find most people do not share the same risk taking pattern, it is disappointing. I for example changed countries, cultures etc. at a moments notice. Stepping into a plane about 3 days after deciding, and deciding in less than a minute, and I can explain exactly why I made that choice. It was rational but the trick to me is stress management. I do not really, experience stress, if i do it probably equivates to a total mental breakdown curled up in a ball and moaning for your average stress prone infj.

Correct me if wrong, but overall infjs are a very stressed type, (stress is a word I use rather than a real experience for me), they stress, then overanalyse, go into loops, hang onto the answer they find, the answer brings actionable relief, relief is needed, stress is feared, the answer become truth.

While it's very understandable, I'm just not willing to deal with that kind of utter bullshit in my personal life.

so all that to say that except if I lived 1000 years i'd probably never be ready to be so vulnerable to someone ever again. Then again im a risk taker, so. mhhh.

You guys have fun keeping that thread alive.

stress management is within all motivation. it sounds like you (and i'm making a generalization based on type and tone of your posts more than on knowing much about your real life behavior) just manage stress by moving through it with greater focus and greater hardening of your emotional self. and it's from running so you don't have to stick around for the actual effects. the downside of just moving forward is that part of you is always running from experiencing the full weight of your truth. the answer that is the most relevant is the truth for you. that is your truth. that comes from softening rather than hardening, that's centered in your emotional experience, especially as you sink down into the deeper layers of it, as you notice what is really happening and how all those "really happening" things are balanced, weighted against each other, and what that music sounds like when you pluck the strings. when you just up and move to another country, you open up incredible new opportunities. you also lose a big part of yourself, your family, the people who have become part of you that you have shared much of yourself with and who now house much of you within themselves. when you have to just change selves because your self is drowning, or when you are not content enough with yourself that the only thing that motivates you is novelty or conquering something outside of yourself, you are just really careful to maintain the conditions of a different kind of trap. and really that's the basic premise of the enneagram for all of us. and part of our conflict is in being so attached to the traps that we are afraid of losing because then we would have to find a new way to be without the illusions that have kept us predictable enough to pretend that we do not have any fucking clue.

it should be clear that we are just as vulnerable as you. we cannot move forward, cannot outrace the explosion. we are not action movie stars. we are not movers and shakers. we cannot hang our hats on our accomplishments with as much fervor and focus. we do not conquer with the same aplomb. when we commit to share, we really begin to identify deeply with you. we will know you. in every relationship i have ever been in, one of the things that has been said to me is that our relationship transformed how they saw themselves. that i could see them in ways that they could not even see themselves. this is part of what we do. nfjs, when they're working for you, when they're committed to you, know how to offer incredibly subtle adjustments. they are incredibly skilled interpreters. they try to reveal, to clarify what makes anything beautiful, valuable, understandable, significant. they show new ways of entering into problems that help the problem change in a way that eventually it can just dissolve. they may not be good at proving anything, but they can offer a perspective that, when embodied, is incredibly valuable to experience. but these skills are often difficult to utilize. they require balance, which is difficult to find in this world. otherwise, they are easily distorted, pushed over, and taken advantage of. we of course have egos, but we're often not very good (the enfj 3w4s are, however) at advancing ourselves and improving our own lot. our lot, by contrast, has to be a distributed one. it is what Fe aux requires of us. to harmonize and take care of all that connects through us. all Fe types struggle staying open and connected in the face of threats to their personal boundaries, their personal well-being. it gives them difficulty in setting boundaries at all. that entp and especially 7w8 and 3w4 types are so good at turning off connection or manipulating the sense of connection to maintain a sense of value through the eyes of others without really connecting to whether or not that is actually valuable to oneself, often times leaving authentic sincere connections for dead. you lose the part of yourself looking for that, striving for that, trying to explore its own completeness, it's own core of significant relationships and nurturing rather than severing those. F requires sacrifice and at times submission. it can't be easily compartmentalized, which makes it harder to be in control of, harder to move in a straight line. a relationship with an infj requires an acceptance and appreciation of this. this part of you will wake up. it requires change in a more fundamental way, and this kind of change is costly because it is more significant, deeper rooted. moreover, we understand, because a part of us wakes up too, that helps us see how to take control of our own behavior and test the outcomes of our choices in more effective ways. it is threatening to us because you can control us and lie to us in ways that are difficult for us to fully test on our own, to know what is true apart from what the communication says on the surface of it and into the endless realm of possibilities that make reality so infinite and shape-shifting. and we struggle because we become vulnerable to ourselves, recognizing that a huge part of ourselves is undeveloped and struggles to anchor itself, that all the mirrors in the world still can't tell you who you ultimately are. because equally significant is the choice you make to decide and the choice you make to notice without attaching too rigidly to the meaning of things (as a way to purport to know when often times it's better to just admit that you don't).

but we also simply struggle with issues in relationships in general. like all types, apart from you. knowing what we want. responding to what is and what has actually happened rather than the ideas that allow us to perceive anything at all, that mark what is valuable or not, that categorize valuableness. oftentimes p types use these less, but they're still there for everyone. when we become good at being ourselves, we learn how to be more reflexive of these categories than p types. we recognize our way of thinking so clearly, that we know when it works against us. this, however, is not an answer. the answer is in finding new ways of being, thinking in fundamentally different ways that help us just be there, be present, improve the directness of our perception and our willingness to experience without judgment and without meaning. we are threatened by this part of you that is so clearly a part of ourselves we do not yet trust. that's the gist.

 

[EcK]

Yeah. I had some free time. I didnt mean to take part in some sort of emotionally supercharged type clash.

[MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] Thanks for your answer. I shall take the time to reply it later. [MENTION=1769]Samvega[/MENTION]. Im not trying to be part of some, group dynamic here, i do not know your story, and while i always go through a set of logical factors to motivate actions i do not call it incredibly calculating or anything of that nature. My motivators are simply these, and a few others, its my flavor of decision making.

 

[EcK]

I dont trust easily. I have my reasons, vulnerability makes breach of trust more hurtful. That is all i meant, no specific example or message was on my mind, just. Participating.

I think im horrified by pure pragmatism in relationship decision because well. There is so little in me that is able to care, sometimes, and the price of control and stability would be too high. I do not want to make the choices that would, just make me hardened to the point of considering that good enough is enough, it would be a betrayal of everything that I am, selling out, in a way. It would feel like quite a dry life to have.

I take risks, i go for high reward high risk (as long as i understand the risk, i dont gamble, i invest) and consider a myriad factors (not saying I'm the only one)
As for stress, i think the perspective [MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] gave was that of the stressed. If you dont get bogged down into mud while walking under the rain then you re simply not slowed down, it doesnt mean you re running or running away from something. Throughout my life i saw people make decisions based on things i simply did not feel and which did not come into my decision making process. (Such as strong attachment to places, family, predictability over growth and the unknown)

You can call it repression, i can only speak of what i experience.

Its all about what we seek and risk perception. I know what i want from life, and stability isn't something i need for myself. Homeostasis is just not good enough.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, I think this is an issue more than anything - ENTPs crave that kind of excitement and change. INFJs ultimately don't. While initially it is attractive to both sides to encounter someone who pulls them out of their comfort zone, in the end it is a bit like the old stories of the man and the mermaid falling in love - there simply isn't a place for them to live that both can exist in. I think it would be dependent on one or the other giving up a big chunk of who they are to accommodate the difference and I'm not sure how sustainable that is in the long run.

While I've never had any romantic connection to an ENTP in real life, I can see the appeal. Characters like House and Patrick Jane are attractive to me. I think INFJs enjoy the element of trying to figure out human puzzles and of providing comfort for someone who doesn't easily turn to just anyone for that. I find the competence and curiousity (quest to learn) appealing. There's something very attractive about being with someone who is able to get you to try new things. However, I really couldn't handle the instability or rootlessness (I don't mean personal instability, but situational) that it appears to me an ENTP would need to be happy. I never realized how much before, but I think the Ni vs Ne thing would be a bigger deal too than I originally might have thought.

 

[EcK]

stress management is within all motivation. it sounds like you (and i'm making a generalization based on type and tone of your posts more than on knowing much about your real life behavior) just manage stress by moving through it with greater focus and greater hardening of your emotional self. and it's from running so you don't have to stick around for the actual effects. the downside of just moving forward is that part of you is always running from experiencing the full weight of your truth.

How would I run from what i don't perceive ? I also do not really believe in the idea of truth being more than a tool or sets of datapoint correlation. and its certainly not unitary, if there is truth, there is as many truths as there are units of anything in the universe.

you also lose a big part of yourself, your family, the people who have become part of you that you have shared much of yourself with and who now house much of you within themselves.

I (try to ) know when it's time to stop putting good money after bad money. By which I mean after I tried discussing and left many openings, and tried my best, and stated things out loud etc. and then i leave and will of course seek new experiences as cryosleep hasn't been developed yet. it's something I've made myself become, because it was necessary. To me possibilities are always open, if someone was a friend to me one day, they will always be my friend, if i loved someone, i will always love them. these things are, my absolutes if you will, things that just do not change, but I have to live, so I leave things behind to create new associations in my mind, expand new futures breaking away from an old timeline radically. because I have to. it's not something i do for pleasure, it's something i do to survive.

when you have to just change selves because your self is drowning, or when you are not content enough with yourself that the only thing that motivates you is novelty or conquering something outside of yourself, you are just really careful to maintain the conditions of a different kind of trap.

Oh, I'm quite content with myself. actually. Huge ego and all. ya know.
The outside is I, i talk-think, rather than think then talk or think and talk. It's all entangled. If something is painful to me, it will drain energy, i will need more to replenish myself yes. However I think that's just, the price of extroversion in general.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I have met several ENTPs. I find myself drawn to them, for friends and fun, but the ones I've known have been too scattershot/unpredictable for me to feel like dating them would be a viable option. Based on the INTPs and ENTPs I've known personally, the INTPs (in particular the one I married) are far more grounded, methodical, and upfront. There are no games, no histrionics, no erratic or hurtful behavior. If words come out of his mouth, he means them because he has thought about them at length. The same has not been true of the ENTPs I've known personally- they process by putting it all out there and THEN sorting it out, rather than sorting it out before presenting it to me. So some hurtful things get said and then taken back as "I didn't really mean that." Individually, those instances might not be extremely hurtful, but over years and years they would become little erosions in my trust of that person. I do know myself well enough to know that.

This is exactly the biggest problem, imo (at least on the INFJ end). I suspect the ENTPs who show up here complaining about squirrel-y INFJs have no idea that what they do is the equivalent of senselessly tying down their future schedules, expecting them to have everything they do decided a week in advance. Spontaneously pummeling us with every possible argument that pops into their head robs us of our freedom. It is a slow death. There needs to be a filter. If they want the freedom to be the unbridled word jockey that Ne lends them to be, impulsively arguing every possibility that enters their thoughts (without stopping to prioritize or comb out the logistical flaws first), then they don't really want to be with an INFJ. I suspect those who have been able to maintain relationships with INFJs have managed to cultivate the ability to filter some of the information BEFORE 'putting it out there'.

 

[entropie]

This is exactly the biggest problem, imo (at least on the INFJ end). I suspect the ENTPs who show up here complaining about squirrel-y INFJs have no idea that what they do is the equivalent of senselessly tying down their future schedules, expecting them to have everything they do decided a week in advance. Spontaneously pummeling us with every possible argument that pops into their head robs us of our freedom. It is a slow death. There needs to be a filter. If they want the freedom to be the unbridled word jockey that Ne lends them to be, impulsively arguing every possibility that enters their thoughts (without stopping to prioritize or comb out the logistical flaws first), then they don't really want to be with an INFJ. I suspect those who have been able to maintain relationships with INFJs have managed to cultivate the ability to filter some of the information BEFORE 'putting it out there'.

Here may lay a fundamental problem: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.

 

[1487610420]

Here may lay a fundamental problem, I experience often: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.

Therein lies a mismatch; According to the INFJ posters here, that's not what INFJ seek, but rather a stable enough reality they can trust that does not provide. How much of all this is a simplistic & subjective subset or representative of the whole, is anyone's guess, though.

 

[entropie]

Therein lies a mismatch; According to the INFJ posters here, that's not what INFJ seek, but rather a stable enough reality they can trust that does not provide. How much of all this is a simplistic & subjective subset or representative of the whole, is anyone's guess, though.

I wouldnt be so passive aggressive about that, cause the older I get the more I am convinced that this mindset is the one of all introverted feelers. It's their choice they have made in life, which aint too illogical, cause they just said: "only what intrests me please, cause I cant take all your shit".

I have had troubles in respecting that in my isfp. In the beginning of the relationship I called her egoistic, egocentric or ignorant. The older I get tho, I learn to understand that she is my fundamental opposite and that I cant expect her to be au pair with me even in those things that are fundamental to me.

I have learnt two things from that: the first was: I am not always right, tho I am rationally right. And the second: this way of treating and seeing the world was a blind spot to my own perception, cause I emotionally disliked it. Opening up to it has shown me that I am not as tolerant than I always thought I am and has given me access to a world, I would otherwise have missed.

Up until today I have fundamental communication problems with my gf, I have no idea how this has been working for 8 yrs now. But I am thankful for every other day I get

 

[1487610420]

I wouldnt be so passive aggressive about that, cause the older I get the more I am convinced that this mindset is the one of all introverted feelers. It's their choice they have made in life, which aint too illogical, cause they just said: "only what intrests me please, cause I cant take all your shit".

I have had troubles in respecting that in my isfp. In the beginning of the relationship I called her egoistic, egocentric or ignorant. The older I get tho, I learn to understand that she is my fundamental opposite and that I cant expect her to be au pair with me even in those things that are fundamental to me.

I have learnt two things from that: the first was: I am not always right, tho I am rationally right. And the second: this way of treating and seeing the world was a blind spot to my own perception, cause I emotionally disliked it. Opening up to it has shown me that I am not as tolerant than I always thought I am and has given me access to a world, I would otherwise have missed.

Up until today I have fundamental communication problems with my gf, I have no idea how this has been working for 8 yrs now. But I am thankful for every other day I get

I merely pointed a mismatch within the limited data sample this thread/discussion provides and referenced exactly that limitation. Wherever you saw passive-aggressiveness in my post, is but your own interpretation.

FTR, my perception keeps noticing a recurring pattern in almost every story/self-clarification posted here, that depicts the same reasoning people put forth in the TED talk about synthesized happiness. Fascinating indeed.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here may lay a fundamental problem: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.

Hmmm. I have to agree with this, but I may not represent all Ni-doms. My internal world consists of every conceivable viewpoint I can hold in my mind and a continual revision process. Every person is an ever flowing river, a dynamic system, every issue has many viewpoints. My lack of filtering is a huge source of the underlying stress of my personality. I feel that Ni is like an endless pile of every perceived notion that continually tries to organize and reorganize everything without throwing anything away. Even false information has meaning because there is a reason someone perceived it. For me the process does continually try to distill the whole down to core concepts to aid in organizing, but everything is in a continual process of reorganizing.

I can get overwhelmed by too much information, but I don't want others to distill it. When I hear one-sided information (especially if it is manipulatively derived) I get a really high level of stress because I know I will internalize it as well. What happens when I am flooded with facts and perspectives is just that I need a lot of quiet time to process it. It is difficult to leave it all in the external world, and so I have to figure out where to put it all in my head.

As part of distilling data down to core concepts, I organize information along continuums along which information can continually shift. If you can picture many intersecting poles of concepts with each idea as a point along them ever sliding and reconfiguring. This is how my mind is organized.

As a side-note which is relevant to the Ne-Ti thought process, I live with a Ti-dom and finally was able to conceptualize his thought organization. His is like an interconnected, multidimensional web of ideas, each point of which is more fixed, but the interrelationships and configuration of the webs are ever shifting. He creates these kinds of structures as his work, and so his mind could be compared to semantic space in which each term is defined, but the interrelationships between terms reconfigure.

 

[entropie]

Hmmm. I have to agree with this, but I may not represent all Ni-doms. My internal world consists of every conceivable viewpoint I can hold in my mind and a continual revision process. Every person is an ever flowing river, a dynamic system, every issue has many viewpoints. My lack of filtering is a huge source of the underlying stress of my personality. I feel that Ni is like an endless pile of every perceived notion that continually tries to organize and reorganize everything without throwing anything away. Even false information has meaning because there is a reason someone perceived it. For me the process does continually try to distill the whole down to core concepts to aid in organizing, but everything is in a continual process of reorganizing.

I can get overwhelmed by too much information, but I don't want others to distill it. When I hear one-sided information (especially if it is manipulatively derived) I get a really high level of stress because I know I will internalize it as well. What happens when I am flooded with facts and perspectives is just that I need a lot of quiet time to process it. It is difficult to leave it all in the external world, and so I have to figure out where to put it all in my head.

As part of distilling data down to core concepts, I organize information along continuums along which information can continually shift. If you can picture many intersecting poles of concepts with each idea as a point along them ever sliding and reconfiguring. This is how my mind is organized.

As a side-note which is relevant to the Ne-Ti thought process, I live with a Ti-dom and finally was able to conceptualize his thought organization. His is like an interconnected, multidimensional web of ideas, each point of which is more fixed, but the interrelationships and configuration of the webs are ever shifting. He creates these kinds of structures as his work, and so his mind could be compared to semantic space in which each term is defined, but the interrelationships between terms reconfigure.

This's a thing my gf suffers from or is blessed with aswell: she has a total hard time to filter information and has to take even those stuff in which does hurt her. She then often takes days to process stuff and then comes up with it, a two weeks old topic, and I am all like: huh ?

The thing is bottom line at least for me: I am an ignorant. My intrest in people is really low and I am only intrested in the things that intrest me in general. I am able to juggle a dozens opinions and switch sides but on the inside I maintain a state of emptiness. To a feeler this would prolly be hell but for me, when my internal firewall is working, I am empty on the inside and I find that cushy and relaxing.
This changes when something emotionally bothers me that can not be solved to easily, then I understand exactly what it means to struggle with decisions.

The problem tho is, its like with Faust, there are two souls in your breast. Intuition is a powerful tool, it in every situation gives you the hunch for the right thing or the subjective right direction spawning from your current experience in life. You basically do not have to think on your own no more. So what they say about entps that they can "switch sides in a discussion for the sake of an arguement" normally happens intuitively. I could go own debating about a thing and not feel a thing (sadly that doesnt work too great for me cause I am too sensitive and get hurt quite fast). Theoretically tho this all could happen and in the whole time there could remain a complete feeling of nothingness on the inside.

I think this could be an important integral part if you want to understand dom-N types, cause under the skin I am as stubborn as an intp with some benevolence of an esfj. 90% of the time tho I do everything out of Ne and the real me actually only those people now that hang around with me for some time. I feel this to be a vulnerable thing. I often too easy criticize people for making the wrong decisions, tho I really havent made a lot of decisions myself in life yet. Nor thought about stuff.

 

[Little_Sticks]

Hmmm. I have to agree with this, but I may not represent all Ni-doms. My internal world consists of every conceivable viewpoint I can hold in my mind and a continual revision process. Every person is an ever flowing river, a dynamic system, every issue has many viewpoints. My lack of filtering is a huge source of the underlying stress of my personality. I feel that Ni is like an endless pile of every perceived notion that continually tries to organize and reorganize everything without throwing anything away. Even false information has meaning because there is a reason someone perceived it. For me the process does continually try to distill the whole down to core concepts to aid in organizing, but everything is in a continual process of reorganizing.

I can get overwhelmed by too much information, but I don't want others to distill it. When I hear one-sided information (especially if it is manipulatively derived) I get a really high level of stress because I know I will internalize it as well. What happens when I am flooded with facts and perspectives is just that I need a lot of quiet time to process it. It is difficult to leave it all in the external world, and so I have to figure out where to put it all in my head.

This is why I typically find it ignorant when profiles that describe what are supposed to be Ni-dominants explains them as if they form one viewpoint and believe it is true. Although an Ni dominant who does such a thing is going to be assertive that they know more because they know how other people are limited in what they know, it doesn't mean they necessarily think they have all the information or understand everything that is going on; rather, they want everyone to know what they know so someone can truly challenge them and they can learn. If other people haven't put as much thought into the matter or are unaware of certain things, it's hard to get constructive criticism without first getting them to know what they don't, which can make people annoyed or feel they are being attacked or told what is the truth.

This's a thing my gf suffers from or is blessed with aswell: she has a total hard time to filter information and has to take even those stuff in which does hurt her. She then often takes days to process stuff and then comes up with it, a two weeks old topic, and I am all like: huh ?

The thing is bottom line at least for me: I am an ignorant. My intrest in people is really low and I am only intrested in the things that intrest me in general. I am able to juggle a dozens opinions and switch sides but on the inside I maintain a state of emptiness. To a feeler this would prolly be hell but for me, when my internal firewall is working, I am empty on the inside and I find that cushy and relaxing.
This changes when something emotionally bothers me that can not be solved to easily, then I understand exactly what it means to struggle with decisions.

The problem tho is, its like with Faust, there are two souls in your breast. Intuition is a powerful tool, it in every situation gives you the hunch for the right thing or the subjective right direction spawning from your current experience in life. You basically do not have to think on your own no more. So what they say about entps that they can "switch sides in a discussion for the sake of an arguement" normally happens intuitively. I could go own debating about a thing and not feel a thing (sadly that doesnt work too great for me cause I am too sensitive and get hurt quite fast). Theoretically tho this all could happen and in the whole time there could remain a complete feeling of nothingness on the inside.

I think this could be an important integral part if you want to understand dom-N types, cause under the skin I am as stubborn as an intp with some benevolence of an esfj. 90% of the time tho I do everything out of Ne and the real me actually only those people now that hang around with me for some time. I feel this to be a vulnerable thing. I often too easy criticize people for making the wrong decisions, tho I really havent made a lot of decisions myself in life yet. Nor thought about stuff.

There was an episode on Law and Order. I think it was called Chosen. Peter Jacobson plays a defense attorney for a Jewish man who was accused of murdering someone. Turns out the accused did it in order to cover up the fact that he was stealing money from a business to send to Israel to help the Jewish people against the violence of the Arabs.

The Prosecutor found it appalling when Peter Jacobson attempted to sway the Jewish jury into giving a not guilty verdict by appealing to their Jewish background. For the Prosecutor, there was a sense of misdeed or wrong in the accused committing murder no matter the reason; for the prosecutor this was implicitly a bad thing that should be punished. But on the part of the defense attorney (Peter Jacobson), he saw the act of wanting to help the people in Israel as not necessarily a bad thing, even if it meant murdering someone to do it. He saw the reason and played with it as best he could extemporaneously as extroverted intuition does, milking it for what it was worth. At the end of the episode, he lost the case anyway and complimented the Prosecutor for convincing the jury why that such a reason isn't enough to excuse someone for murder; the Prosecutor was surprised that Peter Jacobson didn't really care that he lost. He just saw different viewpoints and wanted to argue a defense, whereas the Prosecutor saw a moral problem.
In other words, it's like you say that he was interested in seeing different viewpoints and not having an emotional connection about it (in this case, there was no moral dilemma about the murder, even though everyone knew the man committed murder and Jacobson didn't even try to deny it); and for him, when dealing with a situation of morals, he plays the role of a Sophist in denying any universal validity of the notion, as well as arguing for a position that suits him or his goals. Naturally, ENTP lawyers represent the kind of Sophist tradition that makes people hate lawyers, but it is what it is.

Anyway, I imagine if you watch that episode, you would identify with Peter Jacobson's character as ENTP. And I just wanted to mention it because what you said reminds me of it and it shows Ne+Ti in action without such a person having to be a scientist or an inventor necessarily, which is kind of a silly generalization, like much of MBTI.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Entropie, there’s something so endearing about you.

Here may lay a fundamental problem: I think that filtering information does destroy the information. My greatest goal is to understand all viewports to an arguement, if I was to filter stuff, following my own whim, it's like falsifieing documents.

I think we might be referring to the term ‘filter’ in a slightly different way here. To filter in a way that ‘follows a whim’- which to me seems to suggest it isn’t mindful shaving off of excess argumentation, but rather picking and choosing which details to reveal and which ones to omit- then yes, I agree it’s like falsifying documents, it’s manipulating the details in a self-serving way. What I’m referring to is more of a “Okay, how is this going to sound? Are there flaws in what I’m presenting?” approach, which comes from a place of respecting the other person’s viewpoint- not trying to create a snowjob to falsify something, but rather it’s about catching oneself in the act before unleashing that inadvertent snowjob/falsified argument on others.

There are some Pe’ers (even in this forum) who say things that are so mind-numbingly short sighted it’s hard to believe they’re not embarrassed to even be trying to argue it. [eta: but then, this is the point where I try to remind myself that Pe'ers work stuff out aloud and they're not trying to pass something off as 'finished product' as much as I'm inclined to think- that much admittedly takes effort on my part to remember. But still, some Pe'ers *do* go too far and are trying to pass it off as 'finished product'.] In the way that it’s stunning to Introverted Judgers- to deal with an overzealous Je’er who tries to enforce his/her (clearly flawed) views through sheer force of will (instead of realizing that ideas ‘win’ through their own merit, not because someone calls another person ‘idiot’ forcefully enough) and seems completely oblivious to Ji logic- Pe’ers can sometimes insist on some argument equally as short sighted. Sure, there’s usually some ‘logic’ in it that stacks up in some convoluted Escher way- but the person seems oblivious to how they are twisting immediate facts to some self-serving end. In the way that Ji’ers immediately pick up on details that Je’ers can miss- things which seem obvious, and it can be too distracting to ignore or move past until it’s ironed out- the same thing happens to Introverted Perceivers with overzealous Pe.

[So yeah, I’d agree, ‘filter’ in way you describe it is actually the LAST thing a Pe’er should do because it’s precisely the kind of thing that throws obstacles in Ni's path.]

 

[cafe]

I dont trust easily. I have my reasons, vulnerability makes breach of trust more hurtful. That is all i meant, no specific example or message was on my mind, just. Participating.

I think im horrified by pure pragmatism in relationship decision because well. There is so little in me that is able to care, sometimes, and the price of control and stability would be too high. I do not want to make the choices that would, just make me hardened to the point of considering that good enough is enough, it would be a betrayal of everything that I am, selling out, in a way. It would feel like quite a dry life to have.

I take risks, i go for high reward high risk (as long as i understand the risk, i dont gamble, i invest) and consider a myriad factors (not saying I'm the only one)
As for stress, i think the perspective [MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] gave was that of the stressed. If you dont get bogged down into mud while walking under the rain then you re simply not slowed down, it doesnt mean you re running or running away from something. Throughout my life i saw people make decisions based on things i simply did not feel and which did not come into my decision making process. (Such as strong attachment to places, family, predictability over growth and the unknown)

You can call it repression, i can only speak of what i experience.

Its all about what we seek and risk perception. I know what i want from life, and stability isn't something i need for myself. Homeostasis is just not good enough.

If you don't get stressed when you can't provide adequately for your children or go to the doctor when you need to . . .

But, yes, I personally need stability and security. In part, I need them because I'm a mother. But I also need them for me. My mother is an ESFP so it's not like I don't know what it's like to live without those things. I can adjust to almost any circumstances. I am very adaptable and resourceful. But it does stress me out and take energy I'd rather spend on something else.

My INTP has Ne, which makes him fun to throw ideas around with, but he usually is fine just thinking and talking about them. Sometimes that's a disadvantage, but most of the time, it works out better for me. He isn't disrupting my life with that stuff all the time.

As I said, I love my husband very much. When I considered leaving it wasn't because I wasn't in love with him or didn't like him. But love is only one factor in a LTR, especially when children are involved. I'd consider it the most important one, but you can't eat love.

Entering any romantic relationship is gambling, IMO. It was a gamble when I married my husband and I knew it. I did not want to let my feelings, strong though they were, override my reason. I wanted my marriage to last but we have a high divorce rate in this country and I figured there must be a reason for that. It must, in some way, be difficult. I did my research, to the best of my ability at that time, but I'm a frigging NF, so I didn't really even think about money. Wouldn't have believed anyone if they'd told me at that age that it was important.

I love being able to stay in one place. I love knowing, generally, what my day is going to be like. I love being able to predict what my husband is going to do, if not say. It does not feel confining to me, it feels like nurturing sunshine. Knowing where my next meal is coming from makes me feel comforted and safe. Not having my roots ripped out of the ground without warning makes me feel happy and it makes me feel not stressed.

I know not everyone feels that way. My much-adored grandfather simply could not live in such an environment, even when he was an old man. But it is what I need in order to thrive. In my case, it's not a defect, it's a feature. Having someone believe it is a defect would make us incompatible on a basic level.

 

[EcK]

[MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] quick answer. Gottag get back to work. In my case money is not really an issue. I do not see a situation where i would be struggling to get a sufficient income and what i consider a low income is already more than most people get in their 30ies (i am 26).

 

[littleseed]

If it's rude not to tag and respond to specific people/posts, please issue a pardon this time around.

Any human functioning with fear/anxiety as their motivating force will seek security. Can we acknowledge it's not a phenomena associated to one type? Can we recognize it as a human condition thing?

As stated on here in many instances, ENTPs and INFJs are both runners in their own rights. Similarly with the comments, I agree, the only difference is if they are running to a "new world" or hiding in a cave.

ENTPs and INFJs who are secure within themselves, have processed and resolved past crisis (the process INFJs are all too desperate for ahead of their emotional/cognitive maturation and ENTPs are all too desperate to avoid thus staging off their emotional/cognitive maturation), and are motivated by something greater (truth, a cause, life purpose, self-actualization) are the most fit to appreciate the power & intensity of this dynamic.

It requires the ENTP to prize harmony over dominance and the INFJ to prize honesty over harmony. At this level, it is a healing dynamic for both partners. But it's certainly not for the faint of heart. It's what is required to develop your tertiary and inferior functions if you think the MBTI/interpretations of Jung can explain it all.

 

[cafe]

[MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] quick answer. Gottag get back to work. In my case money is not really an issue. I do not see a situation where i would be struggling to get a sufficient income and what i consider a low income is already more than most people get in their 30ies (i am 26).

That would make you from a different social class than I am from. I'm not sure how much that effects this stuff, but it has to effect it some, I'd think. But I did address this in the post where I re-entered this thread:

I can't imagine having a successful long term relationship with an ENTP myself. I think I could have an amazing friendship with one, but I'm too introverted and have too strong a need for security and predictability to have an E_ _ P partner. The only way I could see it working is if we had money out the rear and didn't have kids. That might be enough to balance things out.

I don't mind the occasional adventure, but I like to be able to come back to my quiet, predictable life. Just call me Bilbo Baggins.

 

[EcK]

[MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION]

That would make you from a different social class than I am from. I'm not sure how much that effects this stuff, but it has to effect it some, I'd think. But I did address this in the post where I re-entered this thread:

I'm just special. Also being a risk taker doesn't mean im not a successful risk taker. All that ne ti has to have some purpose after all. In my case risk is balanced by my SP and there's a forward push through extrovertion and 7w8 if you believe in these things (well, they correspond to a set of answers on preferences and behavior so its relevant whether the system is 'good enough' or not).
Balancing the SP and the 7w8 and feeding my need of inspiration took a while, but I find it's an interesting mix.

The result? I don't make impulsive decisions. I weight opportunity/cost through identifying niches where the environment's perceived risks differs enough from actual risk to extra value at a lowered real risk relative to return. After years of that process my risk perception tends to be quite different from that of most other people. So keep that in mind when I talk about risk taking.

 

[cafe]

[MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION]

I'm just special. Also being a risk taker doesn't mean im not a successful risk taker. All that ne ti has to have some purpose after all. Also my risk taking is balanced by my SP. i don't make impulsive decisions. My whole perception of risk also strives to be based on a large set of patterns and figure out perceived risk from real risk. After years of that process my risk perception tends to be quite different from that of most other people. I find the areas of bias/opportunity overlap to extract value.

Go on with your bad self, then. My second breakfast awaits.