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  1. #781


    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I understand where you're coming from, but this really just goes off on a tangent that gets away from what I was talking about in the first place. As far as the ethics issue? I'm just going to leave that alone (don't feel like going down that rabbit hole right now).

    What I am saying is that I find it really hard to believe everyone doesn't have "conditions" that need to bet met. Whether they are personal, objective, internal, external, w/e. Conditions that need to be met for love to be felt towards a person. I suppose it's possible for people to truly be unconditional about it, but I see that as something that's really rare.

    Honestly in some cases I actually think feeling love towards someone is downright stupid and completely unworthy (but that's my Fe talking which seems to be a rather unsavory thing for people to take here so I won't go into it beyond mentioning it, probably shouldn't have in the first place, but it's late so too late). My dad is one of those people who'd throw himself over a bomb to save me, but mom I don't think so. Knowing that is nice, but honestly? If I did something that caused them to stop loving me and right me off? I might not agree with it, but I wouldn't get upset with the principal of the matter. As a kid my parents very frequently told me "I'll never stop loving you." TBH, I have always found it to be an incredibly vacuous statement. My dad got very upset with me when I was a kid for asking him for why he loved me when I was unsatisfied with is reasons (I found them to be trite) and even asking why in the first place. Eh, I'm going off topic.

    I don't think I'll ever be a parent though. I don't want to be, I think I'd be horrible at it for a wide variety of reasons, so I'll never really "experience" the other end. Even so, I suspect I'd still be the same in this regard (and hence one of many reasons I feel I'd be an unfit parent).
    sounds like you where looking for reasons that would convince you that to love someone unconditionally is reasonable.. it isn't reason dependent to began with, that's sort of the point. it is stupid in the sense of what you get in return, but that again is missing the point. what you should have being looking for wasn't reasons but causes - those aren't exactly a mystical force, it's just wiring of bias, the tribes where more of the parents didn't have the inclinations also didn't have as many surviving children and where less likely to have us as their descendants - we have used models to illustrate that for various aspects of altruistic behavior at large, this isn't an exception.

    (also, the question of being worthy/unworthy of love always seemed to me to be the opposite end of entitlement-logic but still within the same spectrum... it doesn't' work that way negatively any more then it does positively)

    (evolutionary psychology in a jungian thread? yes, we've went quite off topic)

  2. #782
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Aug 2012


    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I dunno. I don't know if I can stand it anymore. I don't know if I can bear to hear another positive statement from you. They say what goes up must come down but Ene never comes down to negativity. I am afraid Ene you will burst with all that negativity inside you. Already we get hints you are starting to creak and rumble. But we are almost dared by you to see any negativity in you. How dare you say I am negative, see, see, I will defend myself with my martial arts.

    We are not yet at the stage of asking you, what are you defending against. We are just watching this massive psychological defence against we know not yet what.
    Aw, Mole, my underground dwelling online acquaintance, the wind does not need to explain itself to those who witness its effects.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

  3. #783


    actually @Hard, you may have striked a nerve that is right on topic...

    to what degree do people find self-love, or the sense of being "worthy of love" (their own, other's, etc), to be conditional?
    to what degree do people in general? to what degree do INFJs in particular?

  4. #784
    I drink your milkshake. Thessaly's Avatar
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    Jun 2009


    You guys warped what I said and took it on some seriously twisted tangents. I said "unconditional kindness" not "unconditional love."

    Hard you need to stop analyzing the dumb shit your parents say. They're just humans. Humans say stupid things. You're like on the hunt for hurt or something.

    Anyways, unless put on the defensive or attacked, INFJs have proven themselves to me to be very kind when presented with any sort of display of vulnerability. There is an outpouring of empathy that gets trigged automatically with them that I find to be incredibly heartfelt.
    With dreamers, pure and simple, the imagination remains a vaguely sketched inner affair. It is not embodied in any aesthetic or practical invention. Reverie is the equivalent of weak desires. Dreamers are the aboulics of the creative imagination.

  5. #785
    I want my account deleted
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    Jan 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    just explain to her: you would never betray her, and if she ever experiences otherwise for whatever distorted reason, then she should know that (in your words) "based on what will make sense to you, her specific PoV won't be worthy of an investment of energy and attention. she might find it more palatable to think its you who can't see other perspectives, but she should rest assured, you can, you just won't be interested in her particular perspective. it won't have any utility value or a basis of reciprocal respect, or whatever it is that you found works for you in the ongoing process of useful shifting of perspective as Ni-dom/Fe-aux". essentially, while for her it might, for you it won't count...
    "Reciprocal respect" - I do not think that phrase means what you think it means, Society.

    The level of ongoing, multi-level fail on this site comtinues to be mindblowing to me.

    I do appreciate the reps from others on my much more crucial INFJ-pancake insights, though!

  6. #786


    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    "Reciprocal respect" - I do not think that phrase means what you think it means, Society.
    hmm? in a situation where you'd act in a way which she found disrespectful you naturally wouldn't be able to expect reciprocal respect given that from her perspective there wouldn't be respect to reciprocate, leading to at least one of the circumstances in which you express as a reason to determine her point of view isn't worth considering. the particular definition of what that respect entails doesn't really factor in for that to be the results, only that you created a situation in which you can't expect it to be returned, nor did it depend on which of the potential causes you listed would be the trigger in the first place (it would work with either one).

    you said the connection between cognitive processing and the resulting affect in question didn't make sense to you and your partner, so i showed a very direct and somewhat obvious connection between your own description of your cognitive processing would create the same results. this shouldn't be hard to see - even if you believe yourself to be right in the resulting situation, you would still be facing a situation where she'd experience you doing X on her perspective and as a result her perspective wouldn't count on your end, and thus your actions wouldn't be viewed from the perspective in which they'd be considered X. from your perspective she'd be wrong/distorted, but the conflicting views described would still be there.

    ...which is exactly what is being claimed and attested too (by this terrible thread that doesn't make sense in this terrible forum of multi level fail).

  7. #787
    Junior Member MinervaSSS's Avatar
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    Oct 2009


    @Samvega - You would be correct!!!!! I spent pretty much a looooong time figuring that out for myself.

    Best pairing for INFJ is the ENTP. Period. ....Period.

    I dated two ENTPs before landing my third and final ENTP who is now my b/f of 3+ years. Some ENTPs will be too immature or 'green' when you meet them, but this last one, he was ripe for the picking and we really see eye to eye, background, interest and culture-wise.

    For the longest time, I thought that the ESTP was my opposite or compliment and this brought me nothing but trouble and heartache. ESTP is the INFJ 'shadow' and he was just...a lot like the character in American Psycho...I seemed to bring out the worst in him, and his dark side. Suffice to say, I was glad to discover the ENTP/INFJ chemistry worked really well, and is THE ultimate pairing for these two types.

    I'll also share with you all the other ultimate pairings out there for the other types. I pieced this together after observing a lot a lot a lot of couples. It's pretty crazy when you find out that the couples that work long term are consistent with this model: (btw, I told this to another online INFJ who has some 'typology degree' and is a typology counsellor...really? And she was all like, that's wonderful, have you published this research? And I was like whaaa? Are you serious? You have a typology degree and you DON'T know this??? She basically looked down her long nose at me and shot it down like it wasn't real knowledge without being published somewhere first...sometimes you just *KNOW*.)

    Without further ado:


    BEHOLD! The holy grail for romantic long term relationships for all the types. I'm totally real with this, no joke. I swear cat.

    I hope this helps anyone who is totally grappling with what is right for them. Cause that was me too. Trying to decipher all the facts to help me make the right choices.

    Also, just because someone is your perfect MBTI type, doesn't mean they are perfect for YOU. There are a lot of people in this world, and a lot of those are the right MBTI types for you, but at the end of the day, it does come down to more than JUST the MBTI that the person is, case in point, my having to date two other ENTPs (not to mention an ENFP and an ESTP who were not good for me) to find that right 'fit' - it's the whole person. Conversely, some people marry their high school sweet hearts without having to shop around (i.e. my ISFJ sister and her ESFP hubby).

    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    First off I need to add a caveat, I'm a single ENTP so maybe my intentions are to try and swoon one of you INFJs but what's wrong with that.

    No really (well, additionally), I wrote this to get these thoughts out of my head and thought I would share because there does seem to be some confusion about how these functions work and just what it is to be an introvert or extrovert.

    I will say there has to be a huge level of self awareness on the ENTP side, something I think is rare before 30 and I wouldn't trust a young ENTP myself so a word of caution to any heartbreak that may arise from pursuits of young ENTPs.

    To fully explain this I need to go more in depth on MBTI itself so I'm sorry in advance if you already know this as well as for my inability to be terse. MBTI is not just 8 letters and being an INFJ for example doesn't mean only what the letters say at face value. As an example an ENFJ is not just the extroverted version of the INFJ, they are VERY different. The two middle letters are the main focus each with an extroverted or introverted possibility. So you can have Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi, Se and Si in many different orders. To give an example, Se is very sensory based, an ESFP would lead with this function as their main way (or least energy) of processing the world and making choices. To stereo type, the ESFP is the classic sorority girl who will date a douche bag asshole based only on his looks. In the case of the ESFP this Se function is followed up with Fi which is about internal feelings, when used correctly this translates to a self aware person, when wrong very selfish. Also the reason the ESFP is all about "me" and what is everybody going to do for "me". What a messed up function (Se) to lead with right!

    Now if you move on to a person with a dominant function of Ti such as with an INTP, you have the classic perfectionist engineer with tape on their glasses who doesn't even notice how messed up their hair is. Mainly because they lead Ti, Ne, Si and Fe leaving them with sensortardation (you and I have this as well) because we don't notice surroundings and do stupid things like walk into closed doors or forget we just brushed our teeth and brush them again, this is due to how in our own heads we are, always thinking. So again the INTP totally lacking the Se function would be oblivious to their appearance where as the ESFP would care only about their appearance.

    With that said, the INFJ is Ni, Fe, Ti and lastly Se leaving them with a dominant (or no energy to use) function of Ni that generates endless possibilities in an internal world. This is the reason they can picture things clearly and in such detail when they read (almost as if they're watching a movie in their head), this is why they can be alone in their own mind for long amounts of time and never get bored. With a secondary function of Fe, this is what allows them such an amazing ability to read people and is also what makes them such an enigma, they generate all these possibilities yet follow them up with Fe, a function that's VERY people based. They feel SO amazingly deep because they can visualize what other people feel in an endless world with no boundaries or rules that they haven't given it.

    To move on the ENTP is Ne, Ti, Fe and Si leaving them a dominant function of Ne, so they're as vivid as the INFJ except in the external world, their fantasies are about building things and with any and every thing they look at they wonder how it works and if they can make it better. They follow this up with Ti so they take all these possibilities and filter them with internal thinking. They can look at something very simple, imagine it 500 other ways and quickly think about what would work the best. It also affords them the luxury of being extremely quick witted and good at debates, because they can generate 50 possibilities and figure out what works best before most people can think of one. So if INFJs are the enigma having the Ni function followed by Fe (one being so internal the other being so people driven) ENTPs would be the paradox in that their first two functions are not people based and even though their dominant function is an extroverted one it's the extroverted function that doesn't need other people, leaving them the most introverted of all the extroverts. In fact with INFJs secondary function of Fe they're more extroverted than an ENTP although it doesn't look that way on the surface. Picture the INFJ as water dripping into a bucket, picture the ENTP when the bucket finally tips.

    The ENTP/INFJ dynamic is so amazing because if you look at how we look at the world it's:

    Ni Fe Ti Se
    Ne Ti Fe Si

    What that boils down to is picture a sock and somebody reaching in and pulling it inside out. ENTPs have the same depth INFJs do in a different way, ENTPs are the same as INFJs yet opposed in a way that is more reversed than opposite. The functions line up in a way that leaves both feeling totally understood yet with endless learning possibilities and total balance. They're like mental playgrounds for one another and it never gets old because both worlds are based in endless possibilities. This same dynamic holds true for the ENFP/INTJ.

    Where the four dominant intuitives differer so much from other types (and why this dynamic is so interesting among the ENTP/INFJ) is our satisfaction (or mostly, lack of) in relationships due to our desire for a deep mental connection, both are looking for mind mates and both want the ideal relationship. Overall we (dominant intuitives) have the most consistent moral systems and are most likely to be disappointed if someone falls short of those moral standards. Both are very growth oriented, passionate, deep and unwilling to be in a relationship of routine that gets old and lazy in time. You do not "get", "capture", "confine", "own" or "cage" an ENTP, ENFP, INFJ or INTJ, those are the four types that pick you.

    The issue with the difficulty in starting an ENTP/INFJ relationship isn't limited to one thing. First off, neither is used to being understood so there's this never ending clarification and "know what I'm saying", "if that makes sense" issue. Both are in dismay somebody else understands with such ease. However because we take different paths to the same place we'll ask things like "why'd you do that" just to understand, when explained the other person totally gets it but because we're so used to the same thing happening with a different outcome it preys on our frustration or issues of never feeling understood. Secondly the INFJ is hard to get out of their shell and the ENTP is quick to run back to theirs. The INFJ has this feeling initially that they'll never get the space they want because they see the ENTP extroverting and the ENTP swears you're not interested. The INFJ will have this constant push/pull I want it no I don't issue and have to fight to get the flood gate open. The ENTP will have this run while you still can issue and have a tough time keeping the flood gate from shutting. Both speak truly and honestly but have a tendency to try reading between the lines with the other when there's nothing there to be read. We apply our own motivations to the other persons actions which is never correct (different path to the same place) and this all takes some excellent and very open communication. These issues don't last long however so at least that's a plus. We're both a type that never really lets people in and we're both amazing at reading people so we're faced with an issue of holy shit this is going to hurt if it doesn't work so both need to want love more than the fear of having it. We're both so whole alone but together there's an overlapping of abilities that gives the other a peephole (I read that four times and kept thinking there was a missing p) into a whole different world. I can tell you right off the bat, if I (as an ENTP) had internal issues I was hiding I wouldn't even consider pursuing an INFJ until I had my head on right because I know it would be picked up on instantly.

    There two things I would like to add while I'm thinking about them. I've compared the ENTP and INFJ to opposite sides of the same coin saying we're exactly the same yet totally different.

    I would say the ENTP and INFJ are both the oddity of the MBTI world on the introverted and extroverted side. We don't really fit in anyplace and are the two types that most often feel quirky, misunderstood and like there is no way anybody will every accept much less understand and love how different we are.

    Anyway, what dawned on me is the false low score we often get on our E function. My dominant Ne function is very high yet I will sometimes only score 54% E and on occasion I will test as INTP. This is because depending on the test I will answer all questions like "you feel comfortable in a crowd" with a yes (standard extrovert answer) yet also answer all questions like "you require a lot of alone time" with a yes, standard introvert answer. This conflict is due to leading Ne, an extroverted function that doesn't need people at all.

    By contrast and backing up everything else I've said. INFJs often falsely test as INFPs, because while the ENTP is the most introverted extrovert the INFJ is the least orderly J. With MBTI these are the only two anomalies like this I'm aware of.

    I have never probed enough on this topic to explain why this is the case with INFJs and that J function but I do find it interesting and in line with everything else I've said.

    Also, ENTPs are the slowest to mature and the INFJ is of course the quickest so I think a 5 to 10 year age difference with the ENTP being older is ideal if not essential. The downside for the INFJ maturing so quickly is because you already feel so different and alone (the ENTP does as well but being the extrovert with an over sized ego they haven't noticed it yet and is enjoying still thinking they're better than everybody else) you also don't feel like you fit in with other people your age so by the time the ENTP has matured the INFJ is feeling jaded, frustrated and starting to let go of that ideal picture of love they've always had and can find in the ENTP.

    Damn this was long, sorry, only a saint or INFJ (same thing I guess less the dark humor) would read all of this.

  8. #788
    Buddhist Misanthrope Samvega's Avatar
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    Dec 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    If you give someone multiple orgasms with no intention of seeing them again then you deserve to be flogged
    Yep, I'm officially twisted and have gone over to the other side, my first instinct as I read this was "why on earth would you reward them for that".

  9. #789
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
    6w5 sx/sp
    ILI Ni


    Quote Originally Posted by Samvega View Post
    1) INFJs are the least satisfied of all the types in romantic relationships this has nothing to do with their partners however so don't take it personal, just know that know matter who you are or what you do it will be the case.
    2) INFJs are extremely prone to cheating and swear it isn't so which paradoxically is why it is so.
    3) I highly doubt you will ever actually know the INFJ, they keep a lot to themselves, here's a prime example:
    2 seems unlikely to me. I don't know why they'd be any more prone to it than any other type.

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  10. #790
    Member iloveyou's Avatar
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    Apr 2014
    9w1 sp/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    i wasn't saying that you did, i was explaining the flaw in your interpretation of the perceived imbalance.

    the thought structures being critiqued are real, too many people who've known INFJs attest to that, too many people who are INFJs excuse and demonstrate it and it's various elements, the only INFJs who are seemingly able to neither excuse it nor demonstrate it are those seemingly aware of overcoming the tendencies in their past, and even that is rather rare. while it might conflict in the angelic view of the type in itself, it doesn't conflict with the portraits existence - rather the opposite - it's what allows INFJs to read the most angelic of type portraits and think "yes, that's totally me" in the first place.

    in that light, what can be understood the balance is not in acknowledging it's existence, it's in ascribing to it a negative, so a more "fair and balanced" view can look at both it's advantages and disadvantages, it's total affect. and as i said, it has them both. the problem here is that there's a clear side - if you are the person doing it, you gain a 100% of the advantages, if you are someone in their life, you gain a 100% of the disadvantages. but the outside perspective doesn't get to be the first, they can only get to be the second.

    you'd essentially be asking to balance "these people will fuck you over in X ways" with "but at least they'll enjoy it!"
    I see your point.

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