[MBTI General] INFJ Compatibility - Why the INFJ/ENTP dynamic is hands down the best.

[garbage]

Hey, guys! A friendly message. FYI, you all might wanna stop with the terrible personal bullshit. A good exercise might be to think of ways that you can actually hold conversations without getting all pissy with one another. One possible way is to slap people on ignore, and then exercise self-control by not bothering to read their posts.

Another way is for mods to step in.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

In general, my issues with INFJ is that they have a tendency to read too much into things, and internalize it, over-think it, play the judge and jury within their minds, and I'm only privy to it, when the sentence is handed out. It can blind-side me. That, added with a deep well of emotions, can make them emotionally volatile and intense at times, which exhausts and frustrates me.

I prefer ENFJ in this regards, because they're more forthcoming with their thought process, more likely to engage in a dialogue, rather than keep it in until the end. They're better able to communicate their feelings and thoughts, to their audience.

Honestly, it seems to me that Ni doms have just as much a proclivity to read too much into things as Ne doms do- but I can definitely see how having it inaccessible would be aggravating. And I can see how that internal churning (making the process inaccessible to others until it's more fully baked) gives it a veneer of ‘finality’. I can remember- probably starting in my early twenties- having friends tell me “and you seemed so certain” about something, and it always felt like “What??” Because I never felt certain- but yeah, apparently it comes across that way.

I've never heard introverted functions (all lumped as one, the perceiving functions, as well as, the judging functions) to be reservoirs of information.

Functions are tools. None of them keep information. That's one's memory, not the functions.

I wouldn’t go so far as to equate them with memory, but both Ni and Si rely heavily on experiential data. I think that Ji values/prioritizes the a priori- but introverted perceiving can’t prioritize it without some experiential data to back it up. So….I don’t know, I wouldn’t call it ‘memory’ exactly, but something an awful lot like memory comes into play?

 

[Qre:us]

Functions war no. 5789!!!!!!

As a random side note: I wonder what means people use to know when shit is going down in a thread? Because, almost as soon as it happens, the #s viewing the thread jumps alarmingly.

Is there a drama alert I'm missing?

Anyway,
[MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] and [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION], I shall respond to you when I'm not on my phone. My fingers doth protest too much.

 

[Werebudgie]

I wouldn’t go so far as to equate them with memory, but both Ni and Si rely heavily on experiential data. I think that Ji values/prioritizes the a priori- but introverted perceiving can’t prioritize it without some experiential data to back it up. So….I don’t know, I wouldn’t call it ‘memory’ exactly, but something an awful lot like memory comes into play?

I had to look up a priori. I've heard the phrase but didn't know what it meant. So I'm doing the conceptual part from, you know, wikipedia.

That said - given how Ni functions for me, I think you're onto something here. The distinction isn't memory but it is experience and experience happens in various places in time. For example: I have one clearly documented (via email archives plus knowing what visibly happened over time) example of me picking up something via Ni (or Ni-also-served-by-Se) that was going to happen but hadn't yet. For me metaphorically, it was like I could hear the music and feel that something could or would happen with that music as it progressed over time.

When I first began picking up the information, I didn't have any way to know the detailed specifics, but I did get the feel/resonance of it, and I expressed that feel metaphorically. I also associated that metaphor and resonance (the sound and flow of the metaphorical music) with an experience that happened in my life previously. There was something similar (but not identical) about the overall flow of what was happening that I was picking up and what I had experienced. The same basic metaphor could describe both. So my use of past experience was descriptive - not predictive. Meaning, I wasn't using the past to think I knew what the present or future held (I have seen shades of that approach in my partner's Si-tert). Instead, was using it as part of my effort to describe some aspects of what I was picking up but didn't yet know consciously.

Z Buck, does that kind of thing relate at all to what you're saying here?

 

[Werebudgie]

As a random side note: I wonder what means people use to know when shit is going down in a thread? Because, almost as soon as it happens, the #s viewing the thread jumps alarmingly.

Is there a drama alert I'm missing?

I wondered about that as well, thus my very carefully hidden comment about the bat signal. My own wondering wasn't about the #s ... but it fits as well.

 

[highlander]

OF COURSE it's a judgmental post! Is that not patently obvious? I am admitting that I construct intricate and MASSIVE judgements about people! My primary lens is JUDGEMENT. My Ji is as deep and complex as you perceive your Pi to be. That snippet above is but a tiny fraction of conclusions I could share. Some about you too, interested? Some more supported with feeling-data and Si facts than others, yet all being refined and refined over time with more Pe, more Pe. Why do you think I advocate Ji peeps hold it open? It is practically imperative.

I just learned something. Never thought about things in this way. I would imagine those intricate judgments would be especially characteristic of Ti doms and Fi doms because they are both introverted and judging functions.

Hey, guys! A friendly message. FYI, you all might wanna stop with the terrible personal bullshit. A good exercise might be to think of ways that you can actually hold conversations without getting all pissy with one another. One possible way is to slap people on ignore, and then exercise self-control by not bothering to read their posts.

Another way is for mods to step in.

I agree with that.

 

[lunalum]

Tl;dr....... it's just awesome.


Too bad INFJ men don't exist

 

[yeghor]

How common is it for INFJs to suddenly do a 180 on something they were absolutely convinced of? It's like I hold a position even though I'm aware of and don't discount some evidence to the contrary. Then an unexpected piece of the puzzle will pop into place and I turn on a dime. And I have the same strength of conviction about the new position as I had about the old one. I do not know how the people that love me stand it. It would drive me nuts in somebody else.

I am prone to doing this too... Any further incoming information may drastically change my conclusion of the subject matter... The conclusions are based on whatever information has accumulated about a subject at any given time... They may be voiced out when they reach a critical mass...

Sent from my GT-I9190 using Tapatalk

 

[Rasofy]

As a random side note: I wonder what means people use to know when shit is going down in a thread? Because, almost as soon as it happens, the #s viewing the thread jumps alarmingly.

I have Ivy and bologna added, so their unofficial warnings to people pop up on my initial screen.

#protip

 

[the state i am in]

You are correct, you don't know the whole story. And no, you didn't ask me either. But, sure, comment anyway without proper discovery. That seems really fair.

And yes, I quoted her today, which is actually the very first time I've done it since she asked me not to "talk" to her, and for that, I will apologize. However, I've listened to the passive-aggressive spew on Pe-Ji for long enough, seen enough middle-fingers thrown towards it - her emotional tang is so strong it's impossible to ignore. This crying baby seems in tantrum-mode.

From my perspective, you should be embarrassed to reduce my legitimate in-process Ji work to some bastardized version of Je. Fi like Ti is a rational process, and in the dominant version shows me quite clearly the slippery slope of JUDGEMENT and what that potentially can lead to. If your Pi shows you inner depths of connected perception, mine shows me the interplay of elements that erupt from the depths of judgement. To suggest I'm not using a "very self-conscious, reflective, mindful version" of my functions is grossly inaccurate here.

Let me ask you this: if she asks for a boundary yet repeatedly and provocatively crosses the line of it, speaking negatively on the very topics I am now not "permitted" to talk about, what kind of a boundary is that? The forum then becomes her venue and I am locked out, my freedom to speak diminshed. Already you and others swarm in to "protect". Who are you really protecting her from, herself or me?

I realize your Fe needs more from me to be able to connect with me. I get that. And I do see the effort you are making, and I appreciate that too, although you approach me as though you are educating someone who is dense and almost stupidly unaware of some type of interpersonal dynamic. Which, I might add, I haven't held against you.

So here's my boundary: ZBuck et al need to stop following my posts and elevating the metaphorical middle-finger to Pe or me. Seems fair, no? Otherwise, the only promise I'll make is to not directly interact with her posts. And at this point, that's now an iron-clad guarantee from this moment forward.

i don't understand or condone elevating the metaphorical middle-finger to J or to P, so i'm with you on that. in my view, we require both. all of us. it's only through both that we find balanced, adult mind. we need purpose, and we need presence. that's part of the intrinsic beauty jung describes, part of its complex symmetry. a marriage of T/F is also inherently a marriage of J/P. i respect Pe, and to me, to attack it would be to attack myself and specifically my ability to commit to my own sense of what is true for me. i have no desire to do that. i feel like Pe is positively humbling for me, not someone else's, but the way it functions within me and within all of us. it helps me relax and see what is happening. most of all, it is where i learn the necessity of practice, patience, and committing to a path as it is. for me, that means often realizing after the fact something that i did not see prior, which can be incredibly embarrassing. it's not always easy to help me see it, but i tend to appreciate people who can help support me in seeing things, in waking up in this way, on my own timetable. i'm okay with this not being a strength of mine, and with accepting that i've focused on other strengths instead. even if i realize now that to use those strengths most effectively, they cannot be their own foundation. instead, it's the other, neglected aspects that provide the balance for them to work best. to recognize this, that both aspects of us are always operating simultaneously, is where we find our true selves. in the process, one is just fed with a lot more bright light than the other. the spotlight of attention empowers one side, which we then start to side with, and which our sense of self gets entangled with developmentally. to me, the experience of individuation is something we share, as is the underlying similarity in having both sides operating always.

i also wasn't trying to diminish Fi. that's not some empty disclaimer. i was saying, inevitably both introverted and extroverted judgment arise at all times. i was saying that being conscious of the Je side, rather than denying its role, is needed to be constructive. that's that point where we make generalizations. we can say, well obviously i had these assumptions that mean that i was only saying that they were for me, but that doesn't really link up or hold the process accountable to what it demands for itself. maybe this is still more misunderstanding of Te. and it's simply others job to hold the claims accountable to reality, rather than ask individuals to make responsible, realistic claims. i don't really know.

i don't think i need more Fe from you. or, if i do, i might just misunderstand what that means to you. whether it's the idea of something or the experience of something, as long as its a holistic sense of connection, i don't know if it matters. if i feel heard, i feel heard. i imagine that's mostly the same for you. empathy and understanding are both part of that. compassion, regardless, works. whether it is often, sometimes, or rarely needed, i guess, is up to each individual to decide. i definitely do NOT think that Fe has a better hold on compassion. i think the broadness of either, the scope, the expansiveness, has so much more to do with how much a person can really allow themselves to see themselves as they really are, who can accept themselves, who aren't afraid of abandoning themselves in favor of judgments.

i also don't see you as stupidly unaware of some interpersonal dynamic. i generally assume others are more aware of them than i am, especially people who generally like to be in the middle of things (when i tend to stay on the edges). i just wanted to point out a specific behavior that i could clearly see would have a negative effect on z. i have no doubt that you have the ability and the social awareness to see this.

 

[1487610420]

I have Ivy and bologna added, so their unofficial warnings to people pop up on my initial screen.

#protip

That's such a rather utilitarian view on friendship criteria.

I like it.

 

[Qre:us]

do you think we expect too much consideration?

It's all relative, and depends on the value judgements. ENTPs might think that you expect too much consideration for areas where they don't believe consideration should be given (and don't expect it as well), but to you, those areas are highly valued, so not receiving consideration in those areas are infringements of the deepest cuts. For example, I can be very persistent in a debate, and come at a person's thoughts/ideas in a very aggressive manner. However, if the person makes a valid point (according to me), I will reinforce it, and give them due credit. However, to them, I've already attacked them, and so, when I respond positively to their valid point, they are either thrown for a loop, that now I'm being "nice" to them, or suspicious of my motives, and not willing to "forgive and forget". While to me, this is not even a consideration, because I really placed no value on our debate determining whether we liked each other/agreed with each other, only whether we had a fruitful discussion about the topic at hand.

For me, Fs have emotional boundaries, that don't always register with me, as they can be very nuanced or not even something that I think is worth setting up boundaries for (protecting).

Understanding what each of us value (which is not simply about ENTP versus INFJ, but individual to individual), and finding the area in those two circles, where the overlap can occur (think Venn diagram), and coming together from that place, would achieve the most productive dialogue. Else, if the circles are disparate, then the aim is to find a way (if any, or, if worth it), to bring the circles in close enough proximity for an overlap to eventually occur, and then, and only then, work on building from that place of overlap/shared values.

i'm in a conflict right now that could be headed for exactly what you're describing. a few things have added up, with the result that i feel dismissed, and i feel like my needs were ignored. i've certainly struggled to not play the judge and jury, and just really focus on what i need and what my entp friend might be needing too, and just allowing myself to see the conflict clearly without unneeded judgment, but recently i've felt it getting away from me. there's a sense of me that understands that playing by your own rules is generally not the way to best guess what consideration others might need, which i can understand. not feeling like the other person is going to try to respect and take care of what is true for you, however, doesn't really feel like friendship, either. this is maybe the point where difficulty seeing the long-view, and really having a balanced sense of the story, is really challenging for me.

Are you able to hazard a guess at what he/she is perceiving from you/about you, which is creating the conflict, the resistance, from him/her?

anyway, i don't know if part of the "finality" that you notice is because we are more likely to aim not just at the facts but at the interpretation. if instead of in a laying out the facts kind of way, we focus on conveying how they fit together. maybe a moral imperative does do too much of the work for us, rather than simply describing what has happened for us.

We all interpret facts, contextualize it. How facts fit, or do not fit, together within the premise of a discussion - ENTPs can excel at this. It allows us to sometimes bring in facts or discount facts, and lay out a logical reason for its inclusion/exclusion to the topic at hand. It's how we one-up.

But, I do believe it lies in the interpretation, more specifically, the lens through which we interpret, the values we use to interpret. Which are different for ENTPs and INFJs, and even more so, from individual to individual. So, yes, the moral imperative definitely plays more of a role, for INFJs, moreso than ENTPs, for a more broader range of topics, and for different topics.

I wouldn’t go so far as to equate them with memory, but both Ni and Si rely heavily on experiential data. I think that Ji values/prioritizes the a priori- but introverted perceiving can’t prioritize it without some experiential data to back it up. So….I don’t know, I wouldn’t call it ‘memory’ exactly, but something an awful lot like memory comes into play?

I agree, completely. And that's a really good way of describing it, the bolded. I just think that functions, being tools, means that Pi, as a tool, taps into the memory of our experiental data, and it is not within the user's conscious control, it's subconscious. Pi is not a vessel that holds the experiental data. It functions to perceive the experiental data, stored within our memory, in a certain way (leading to the difference in perceptions between Ni and Si).

Perhaps all of them are just different manifestations\methods of information storage, recall and memorization...?

Not quite. Recall is not a method of information (memory) storage. Memory (information residing in your mind) can be thought of in three parts, first you store the information, you encode or encrypt] the information somehow, and then you recall the information. Memorization is a method of information storage.

In this way, I think Si and Ni (Pi), taps into memory encoding and recall. Not storage.

As for being judgmental, I've seen how judgmental he can be when he wants to...It's just that they are kept inside unless absolutely necessary...At those times I guess his INTJ shadow manifests itself (and Ti gets turned upside-down and whatever's stored inside the Ti gets poured out thru Te)...

I have commented before about my INTJ shadow, it looks like a very clumsy, out of control, unhealthy INTJ. She's not squisable. Wait....that's an INTJ, in general.

...over extending jungiang metaphors aside:
from the receivers end, what would be the difference between a judgement and an unfavorable conclusion?

(this came up quite a few times)

Judgement versus judgemental. In the former, the judgement becomes the focus, in the latter, the giver of the judgement, becomes the focus.

 

[1487610420]

I wonder if any of the discussions which have unfolded in this thread can make an uncanny case study re OP.

 

[Society]

Judgement versus judgemental. In the former, the judgement becomes the focus, in the latter, the giver of the judgement, becomes the focus.

right, but that's a social maneuver / attitude on the receiving end, its how they react to it, the experience they are reacting too in either cases is still "someone thinks something about you which you dislike".

Not all judgements are unfavorable.

no, but i have yet to have seen someone being called judgemental for giving away compliments...

To me at least a judgment feels more spontaneous, while an unfavorable conclusion feels more processed. Like Ne vs Ti, in the case of an ENTP.

that's interesting... you experience Ne speculation as judgements?

 

[Qre:us]

...over extending jungiang metaphors aside:
from the receivers end, what would be the difference between a judgement and an unfavorable conclusion?

(this came up quite a few times)

Judgement versus judgemental. In the former, the judgement becomes the focus, in the latter, the giver of the judgement, becomes the focus.

right, but that's a social maneuver / attitude on the receiving end, its how they react to it, the experience they are reacting too in either cases is still "someone thinks something about you which you dislike".

What do you mean? Maybe I misinterpreted how you're using the word "judgement", in your original quote above. I didn't interpret "judgement" to have any negative connotation, I saw it as neutral. "Judgemental", on the other hand, has a negative connotation. Judgement doesn't necessarily always have to be "someone thinks something about you which you dislike".

 

[Odi et Amo]

that's interesting... you experience Ne speculation as judgements?

No, but I can see how someone might. I was speaking more generally. Speculation is a good word. Ne caters as well to sooooo much sarcasm, so frequently around NPs I'll just smile and wait a few seconds to see if they smile after saying something that could be construed as a judgment. Plus, as Qrious said, judgments aren't always negative.

 

[yeghor]

...

I agree, completely. And that's a really good way of describing it, the bolded. I just think that functions, being tools, means that Pi, as a tool, taps into the memory of our experiental data, and it is not within the user's conscious control, it's subconscious. Pi is not a vessel that holds the experiental data. It functions to perceive the experiental data, stored within our memory, in a certain way (leading to the difference in perceptions between Ni and Si).

What if they can not only read but write as well?

Not quite. Recall is not a method of information (memory) storage. Memory (information residing in your mind) can be thought of in three parts, first you store the information, you encode or encrypt] the information somehow, and then you recall the information. Memorization is a method of information storage.

In this way, I think Si and Ni (Pi), taps into memory encoding and recall. Not storage.

What if the internal functions are merely tools that can access and manipulate different parts of the brain or the psyche...? They would act as two-way portals to those parts?

I theorize that our external functions are inlets for external information that we are attuned to....perhaps they are coming in raw form and our internal functions analyze and makes sense of them and then store them for future use...so the external functions determine the type of imcoming raw data whereas internal functions determine what's extracted out of them and stored/integrated into the psyche for future use...

When needed, whatever stored therein is recalled (and perhaps modified/customized) thru the interior functions and then expressed and flavored externally thru our external functions...external functions dictate the style they are expressed...

I have commented before about my INTJ shadow, it looks like a very clumsy, out of control, unhealthy INTJ. She's not squisable. Wait....that's an INTJ, in general.

How do you act against others in that state?

Tapatalk

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Wow. I wouldn't have seen this if state hadn't quoted it. I have flat out told you that I am ignoring your posts, and asked that- if you must quote me- you not bother addressing me and direct your questions to anyone else since I won't be reading it. I guess now I'm asking publicly as a last resort, since you are so fond of turning any kind of drama you stir up into a public spectacle, maybe this way you will finally hear it. Anything from this point on though, I'm simply going to ask the mods for support in getting you to leave me alone.

I sorta can't believe I'm prolonging this- but a couple people have told me it's "unfair" to ask someone not to quote me so I'm going to post this. I'd like to point out that I never asked that- either in the above quote or the private message I sent months ago. I very clearly said "if you must quote me, do not address me directly because I will not be reading it". I never once asked her not to quote me.

 

[Werebudgie]

I would call it the Fi versus the Fe but as I mentioned we all have male and female aspects to us and even in male/female dynamics the male isn't always the "butch". I can think of two male INFJs that made me think "shit, I really wish I liked guys", I would call them more "feminine" from a society perspective but I don't feel that's the proper way of expressing it. In fact, one of them I would classify as very much so all that embodies a man though he's "softer" in feel and approach, not overpowering, essentially you can see the Fe in his actions. I'm mentioning this to further highlight or give some context to gender bias playing a roll in MBTI development.

I don't know if I'm going to articulate this correctly, but: to my perception, the energy underneath those bolded words is beautiful. Like, there's beauty in your perception and/or his actions and/or your connection and/or something related to those things. Really striking. Don't know what it means, but it's beautiful to me, whatever it is.

 

[cafe]

no, but i have yet to have seen someone being called judgemental for giving away compliments...

Ah. I thought this was in context of MBTI. nvm