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[ENFJ] Are ENFJs the least "thoughtful" NF?

proteanmix

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I have noticed a very marked pattern of when any type tries to ask a serious question to ENFJs the thread very quickly degenerates into platitudes, anecdotal stories, and misplaced sympathy. Even mongrel ENFPs manage to give some insightful posts into their psyche but I have not seen that very often with threads aimed at ENFJs. Either they get less than 10 responses, six of which are made by non-ENFJs or they turn into "NO YOU'RE AWESOME!!" Chinese firedrills.

Now, I'm being completely serious. I do not have an antagonistic relationship towards Ti. I grew up with two IxTP siblings, I was introduced to it very quickly I feel comfortable with it, I've tried to encourage it's growth within myself, sometimes it's a bad moon rising but that's OK, cause I know what it is. Even in impersonal things, like choosing a laptop or switching auto insurance I tried to do my version of extensive research, thinking carefully over what I need and comparing it to what's out there. Of course, I'm best applying Ti towards people and relationships because it's easier and the most natural mode for my Ti to be aimed. I can dissect and analyze and distill a relationship like nobody's business.

I remember reading in Jung's Psychological Type's and reiterated in Marie Louise von Franz's Psychotherapy some key statements about the nature of Fe. Basically Fe abhors abstract and philosophical thought and only wants to engender (harmonious) feeling. Ti don't work like that. Fe-doms using Ti evidently causes such psychological torture that the United Nations is preparing a statement denouncing its use as a human rights violation. Now of course I fought with that and instantly threw the books across the room and tried to light them on fire, but while trying to get my lighter to work I stopped. I thought, "could this possibly be true?" The thought was just too much and I had to sit down.

I've done several experiments with the ExFJs to see if this is true. I've tried to lead conversations down the path of analysis. I say it's easier with older ExFJs of course they're going in that direction whether they want to or not, but with ExFJs in my age group it's harder than putting on mascara while riding down a pothole filled road. And I can't really be objective about it myself because I'll get pulled into the Fe stuff and before I know it I'm telling someone how awesome they are. By the way, here's a list of adjectives for awesome.

Now before anybody comes in defending how "smart" and "intelligent" the ENFJs are they know, take a Xanax and shut up. I'm not slandering ENFJs (or ENFPs!). I'd just like to know why is it finding thoughtfully elucidated statements from ENFJs on the forum is nigh impossible. I'm not talking about sympathizing or charming or cracking a joke. Part of the reason why I can only muster two posts a day is because I try to THINK about the responses I give and make them reasoned. The hamsters in my brain say no more after a certain point.

This makes me look at Fe in a whole new light in my interpersonal interactions. I SEE it now and it's just freaking weird. It's like hearing a recording of your own voice and thinking 'is that the way I sound?' I say this neutrally, of course I have no problem with manifestations of sincere Fe. The way my Fe manifests itself is exactly the way you see it here. I don't try to avoid or pat people on the back and rub their heads and tell them it's gonna be OK. That's beginner level one to me, but that's the only way I see Fe being manifested on the forum. I acknowledge the problem or the tension and try not give them platitudes or blindly sympathize with them or overextend myself.

So what do you have to say ENFJs? What do you THINK about? What are you THOUGHTFUL about? If I cut your brain open what would I see? Are you like a pinata and candy will fall out? Will the secrets of the universe be revealed? I'm obviously being a little sarcastic but I'm really curious to know.

Talk to me. :)
 

Amargith

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But you are slandering mongrel ENFP's right? *gets xanax ready*

:alttongue:
 

Lauren Ashley

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Are ENFJs the least "thoughtful" NF?
IME, yes.

I think it takes a while to embrace the inferior function since it is so different from the dominant. Until then there is this hate-love-hate-hate relationship with it. Adult ENFJs can be very thoughtful though, as you mentioned,.

I would say more, but I guess this thread is mainly for ENFJ responses?
 

Moiety

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Let the fight between mongrels and rainbow puppies commence!! Either way, I'll be the St.Bernard drunken outcast enjoying the show.


For what it's worth, I know some EXFJs and my main frustration when communicating is undoubtedly Ti, or lack thereof, on their part. No matter how A -> B I make it sound, they always seem impervious to logic when they have made up their minds about the issue.
 

jenocyde

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For what it's worth, I know some EXFJs and my main frustration when communicating is undoubtedly Ti, or lack thereof, on their part. No matter how A -> B I make it sound, they always seem impervious to logic when they have made up their minds about the issue.

+1
 

proteanmix

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Anyone can comment, but I would like this to be a thread with thoughtful responses rather than Fe and ExFJ bashing. There are plenty of those around.
 

proteanmix

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This makes me look at Fe in a whole new light in my interpersonal interactions. I SEE it now and it's just freaking weird. It's like hearing a recording of your own voice and thinking 'is that the way I sound?' I say this neutrally, of course I have no problem with manifestations of sincere Fe. The way my Fe manifests itself is exactly the way you see it here. I don't try to avoid or pat people on the back and rub their heads and tell them it's gonna be OK. That's beginner level one to me, but that's the only way I see Fe being manifested on the forum. I acknowledge the problem or the tension and try not give them platitudes or blindly sympathize with them or overextend myself.

Quoting myself because I can do that.

When I think about Fe too hard and seeing it in action, I feel like I get a momentary flash of what it's like to be a Ti-dominant. I think if you think about Fe too hard, I can really see how it will make you anti-social because it truly does seem farcical. The whole point of it does seem to be to make other people feel good which isn't often the point.
 

Lauren Ashley

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I've seen ENFJs at their most thoughtful during their "dark" phases. These are basically times when they've been separated from human contact for quite some time (willingly or not) and they begin to reassess how they approach situations and their general outlook on life. It can be a little scary for them, but they emerge with a greater perspective.
 

Totenkindly

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OK people. No derails by the 2nd post please.

Wow. That was impressive.
You didn't even get one good post before things went stinky south.

Way to win your point and lose the war. :(

I had an ENFJ who was very influential in my life. She was about ten years older than me, and she introduced me to MBTI back in the 90's. She was very encouraging of me as a person, she was able to help me put my good and bad in context and leave me feeling like I was a member of the human race.

The problem was always about getting time with her, and once I moved out the area, she just did not maintain contact. She also just didn't do much e-mail, if any; she didn't seem to invest in it.

My first therapist also was ENFJ, and that's been the same issue. In therapy, she was very insightful and responded so deeply to the things i would share with her, and we could discuss things in depth (enough to satisfy T-craving). We would laugh and laugh.

However, once I stopped seeing her, our relationship basically ended. I would send her e-mails every so often with an update on my life (not to be overwhelming, just to keep in touch), and I would get back letters that were only a paragraph, maybe two, long at best.... all very pleasant and affirming in tone, all the warmth heart-felt, but no real meat whatsoever. In writing, she just was sort of negligible. And of course I always instigated the writing, which is a bummer since she was important to me and would have liked it to be more mutual.
 

heart

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Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.
 

jenocyde

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I don't know what the difference is between a thoughtful comment and bashing. Is it bashing if the thoughtful comment is negative?

But back to the topic, I know a few ENFJ men really well and it seems like they think of how they come across quite often. One is almost paralyzed when leaving the house, checking and rechecking his outfit and asking repeatedly if he looks like a member of the prevalent social group in the neighborhood where he is headed. It's almost comical.

He is extremely intelligent but uses this intelligence only for politics and world affairs. Other than that, he's just happy go lucky and will do almost anything not to offend anyone. When people are having serious discussions, he'll just blurt out cutesy nonsequitors and do a little dance. It's almost impossible to have a conversation with him that doesn't end 'cutesy', like you said. And he will only be offensive politically if he's speaking to someone who prefers individualism over community. I know this may not be as helpful, since I'm not an ENFJ, but on first glance it seems that their thoughts are like chessboards. Planning strategically each word and each step to maintain harmony and peace and laughter.

The other thing I've noticed is that they are extremely empathetic to, what I perceive to be, a fault. I could come home with a story about being gang raped and he would say "those poor guys, I feel bad for them since they've probably never known a mother's love". While sweet, it's not productive and does not encourage people to go to them with their problems.

Hmmm, I guess I'm just as curious as you are Protean...
 

jenocyde

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Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.

But you know, a lot of INTPs (and NTs in general) aren't even aware or conscious of those feelings. We're not hiding them, for the most part. Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?
 

Moiety

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Anyone can comment, but I would like this to be a thread with thoughtful responses rather than Fe and ExFJ bashing. There are plenty of those around.

No bashing. I had nothing to add on the issue apart from acknowledging that from my experience Ti is a problem. I can't say I find ENFJs less thoughtful than other NFs. Only in the same sense that an ENTJ "is more concerned" with actual action than theorizing, when compared with, say, an INTX. The judging function is primary and external, so it only makes sense.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.

I think this is a part of it. They are extremely sensitive to criticism. And this goes both ways, as they are careful not to offer criticism (or comments that could be miscontrued as criticism) that would endanger their relationships with others.

But you know, a lot of INTPs (and NTs in general) aren't even aware or conscious of those feelings. We're not hiding them, for the most part. Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?
Yes.
 

proteanmix

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Maybe it's just the tendancy to keep their deeper thoughts close and not expose them to the criticism of others. Sort of like INTP want to keep their deeper feeling side sheltered.

Does this mean that the ENFJ are not even aware or conscious of their thoughts?

You guys are on the right track!
 

Totenkindly

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How can someone not be conscious of their thoughts? Please explain more deeply, I'm not understanding what is meant by this.

The ENFJs I've known (male and female) were capable of deep thinking/insight; the main issues were that their thinking was tied to their values and used to defend them.

The one I was friends with had created his own RPG and I was invested in his project, both as an adviser and as an editor. There were some issues with the rules that I noticed myself from a theoretical standpoint, and playtesting brought them to the fore, players were complaining about it... but when I engaged him on the issue (in an impersonal way), I felt like he felt I was attacking him, and he refused to change the problem areas even though it made a lot of sense. The game had to reflect his values, rather than actually make playing experience more enjoyable (and thus allowing the game to become successful); and the effort failed.

Anyway, a lot of the "thinking" can be put out there in front of others; but challenging the thinking seems to come across as an assault upon the person/values.

... and everything did have to stay positive, there was very little engagement if the situation had any critical tone to it.
 

proteanmix

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That's what I wonder when I hear NTs saying they don't know how they feel. How is that even possible?! It could be the case with not knowing what they "think."

ETA: Ti is often like the elephant in the room I'm trying valiantly to ignore. Now, I'm more open to inviting it to the table. Often we just sit there looking at each other, but that's a start!
 
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