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[ENFJ] Are ENFJs the least "thoughtful" NF?

skylights

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i would like to start out by saying that it is very difficult, in my experience, to really get to know ENFJs. i am lucky to know one quite well and sometimes i feel like i still do not know her well. at least - she's not always fast to let me in... it's like i have to pick up on these minute little clues, like keys to open doors... but when i choose the right key! it's rewarding. i think for both of us, because we both make that connection we hope for and feel safe about making it.

anyway, i don't think ENFJs are the least thoughtful, in terms of actual thought, but sometimes i feel like they can discount the value/worth/identity/feelings/Fi parts of the other person for the sake of getting what they want, be that getting their point made, information for their own sake, or moving people around in a way that best suits themselves. it's a colder kind of disinterest than i am used to and a subtle "using" of other people in my eyes, which is surprising out of someone with the capacity to be so warm and loving. it tends to unnerve me, because i do not want to be caught unaware and then get hurt.

Lookin4theBestNU said:
Here is the real truth from my pov. I feel it when someone is trying to lead me. I will strongly resist this though I may not outright do so. I will subtly change subjects. Secondly, all too often the "path of analysis" just seems so damn pretentious regardless of the personality type starting it. It feels fake and I just don't enjoy that.

^ yes. i don't mind being led if i know and trust the person, but it's disturbing to me if i do not. and it's not like i can't see through it half of the time. i won't know what it is someone wants, usually, but i'll recognize that there's an ulterior motive. like there's something they want me to say/do, some conclusion they want me to come to, or some nugget of info they want, but they're trying to get it from me without my knowledge. if i trust the person, then it's okay, but it scares me otherwise. i don't want to act if i don't know why... i could be doing something i don't believe in...

Tallulah said:
The Fe only extends so far, and doesn't quiiiiite reach to true hospitality. It's more like inviting you to share the world that she wants to present--not the world that would make the most people comfortable.

right. and perhaps counterintuitively to Fe, the world that makes me most pleased is not always the most comfortable. Fi and Ti sense when something is being hidden, and i will be on edge, not comfortable, until i know what it is - or at least until someone acknowledges that it's there. i don't have to know - i get that someone might not trust me enough - but it's not fair to pretend like it's not there, either. nor is it even reasonable. it's not like i can't tell.

the one biggest things i have learned about ENFJs is that "trust" is a very, very important concept in their world. i lay myself bare all the time, so it is less so in mine... it feels foreign to me to hold people back in that way, and i naturally distrust it. plus basically i recognize that ENFJs are masters of either making me feel so warm and loved or like an awful person and completely alone, and that, coupled with their tendency to withhold information (which can come off as malicious and/or pretentious), puts me on edge. and made all the more odd by the fact that ENFJs are rather social creatures! though, don't get me wrong. some of this is what i love about them, too.


in other words... it's not a lack of thoughtfulness that is a crux for me so much as tangible distance.
 

Amargith

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@OP

Some of the xNFJs I've seen that are in fact very insightful in their type tend to wield a very good blend of strong Fe with a touch of Fi. I personally, when I was younger, also really didn't like wielding Te..and used Fe instead. It's draining and it's more a tool that feel uncomfortable in my hand, but it works with the stuff that I need to get done.
 

Sparrow

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ENFJ in the hizzzouse ;)!

I think Im a pretty thoughtful person, I like to try to understand where everyone is coming from and I do so by asking questions. I also like to share my stories as a way to relate with others. I like to help people out with what I think is good advice (from my own point of view) and its not always sugar coated and cutesy. Im equally left brained and right brained. Im playful at times but I do keep it real as well. Im not perfect, I can sometimes get a little defensive and feel the need to put in my 2 cents.

Seems like there arent that many ENFJs who post here...bummer. Props to my ENFJs that do post, love you guys and I think your all pretty thoughtful, dont leave me!!!!
 

ExAstrisSpes

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I have always been described at thoughtful,intellectual and philosophizing. I have become more warm,charming,creative with a zany sense of humor as I got older. The analytical thinking has always been there. The other things have always been there as well.. but the focus has changed. I would almost always pick Justice over mercy. Now I am more prone to consider mercy.

ENFJs are certainly misunderstood.

I agree.
 

Orangey

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I have noticed a very marked pattern of when any type tries to ask a serious question to ENFJs the thread very quickly degenerates into platitudes, anecdotal stories, and misplaced sympathy. Either they get less than 10 responses, six of which are made by non-ENFJs or they turn into "NO YOU'RE AWESOME!!" Chinese firedrills.

I don't know if you've noticed, but what you've described here is pretty much the case with most threads, not just those aimed at ENFJs.
 

ExAstrisSpes

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i would like to start out by saying that it is very difficult, in my experience, to really get to know ENFJs.

I don't really feel my parents "get" me all that well, and even friends I consider close I hold at a distance as well.

it's a colder kind of disinterest than i am used to and a subtle "using" of other people in my eyes, which is surprising out of someone with the capacity to be so warm and loving. it tends to unnerve me, because i do not want to be caught unaware and then get hurt.

I detach myself from a lot of people because my squishy, fluffy insides are quite sensitive and I'm trying to avoid getting hurt myself.

the one biggest things i have learned about ENFJs is that "trust" is a very, very important concept in their world. i lay myself bare all the time, so it is less so in mine... it feels foreign to me to hold people back in that way, and i naturally distrust it. plus basically i recognize that ENFJs are masters of either making me feel so warm and loved or like an awful person and completely alone, and that, coupled with their tendency to withhold information (which can come off as malicious and/or pretentious), puts me on edge. and made all the more odd by the fact that ENFJs are rather social creatures! though, don't get me wrong. some of this is what i love about them, too.


in other words... it's not a lack of thoughtfulness that is a crux for me so much as tangible distance.

Trust is *very* important to me. It's hard to make myself feel vulnerable with someone, because honestly I'm really afraid of getting hurt, especially by someone I value and care about so much. I'm very open with most people/acquaintances, and I'm even more open with people I really want to get to know. When people unwittingly or unknowingly poke at my sensitive fluff, it's really hard for me to stay still. Usually I just run away.

One could-have-been-a-friend I know has made some hurtful comments and has done some hurtful behavior on occasion. I still talk to her but I no longer will I open her up to my thought process. I've pretty much written her off as a selfish b**** because of the way she's treated me and other behavior I've observed from her in the past.
 

Night

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I don't know if you've noticed, but what you've described here is pretty much the case with most threads, not just those aimed at ENFJs.

Agreed.

It's long been my observation that many MBTI-centered threads begin with an honest precept of intellectual exploration, only to gradually unwind into a collective opportunity to express social solidarity for the type in question.

I think it's what happens when creativity ends; when we don't have anything more to say.
 

Night

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PCness killed the cat. As usual. As always.

Yes.

In the rush to avoid hurting people's feelings, it happens that truth in dialogue is overlooked.

I wonder how we might get around this? Seems like the best means would be to entrust self-policing to ensure bombastic behavior does not become the norm; even then, it's difficult to encourage meaningful conversation without affective behavior getting in the way.

Intellectual maturity is the ideal. I wonder how close we are to social responsibility on this forum?
 

Moiety

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The answer is, not to give up. If you want a taboo-free world you just keep on shockin'em. Eventually even the majority will start tolerating some things better.


The problem is that people, specially in this relationship forum, seem to come here to discuss people rather than ideas. There's too much ad hominem and not enough detachment to let ideas flow steadily. You'd figure in such a NP-heavy environment things would be different and yet....
 

Night

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The answer is, not to give up. If you want a taboo-free world you just keep on shockin'em. Eventually even the majority will start tolerating some things better.


The problem is that people, specially in this relationship forum, seem to come here to discuss people rather than ideas. There's too much ad hominem and not enough detachment to let ideas flow steadily. You'd figure in such a NP-heavy environment things would be different and yet....

I wonder which is the greater likelihood: the abolition of unnecessary sensitivity or the triumph of forced social grace?

Do they need to stand in opposition? Seems to me the ideal interaction would incorporate respect for diversity of thought while allowing for a natural expression of human emotion to important ideas.

That is to say, a sense of urgency to express opinion, without judging the essential character of your opponent for disagreeing with you.

I don't see any other way to progress philosophy than to realize the inevitability that one's analysis is perpetually incomplete.
 

proteanmix

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Lookee what showed up in my User CP!

My opinion hasn't changed much since I started this thread, but it doesn't really matter. I'm not looking for what I was looking for anymore, which is a good thing for me.

Night, excellent points.
Moiety, yeah but I often think people want to wring concessions, apologies, admissions of wrong doing, misdeeds, and guilt from people that have nothing to do with anything.
 

Night

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Moiety, yeah but I often think people want to wring concessions, apologies, admissions of wrong doing, misdeeds, and guilt from people that have nothing to do with anything.

Most certainly.

This sort of unhealthy emotional behavior appears often the result of misplaced inability to confront dysfunctional relationships in other parts of their lives. Instead of addressing the difficult emotional event, they seek to displace their feelings of inadequacy onto others. That way, they can avoid the legitimate crisis in their lives by convincing themselves that the problem lies elsewhere, rather than within.

It's a self-defeating external locus of control.
 

ExAstrisSpes

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You'd figure in such a NP-heavy environment things would be different and yet....

but, but. . . .I'm an NJ. . . .:cry:

And yes, I initially joined TC so that I could talk about someone and try to understand him better (since he's a bit of a quiet person and I can be a bit impatient when I want to figure someone out).
 
G

Glycerine

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Who cares? My whole aim at this site is to relax. I don't really want to get into that much depth on this website.... it's not real life. It's my escape from the seriousness of real life. I have had many people tell me that I'm "thoughtful", "analytical", "cerebral" and the like in real life. Why does it matter if people on the internet think I'm "thoughtless"? How much impact does it have on me in the real world.

Ironically, there's also a lot of the other extreme.... I'm so smart and intellectual because I can make convoluted discussions and nitpick at the most irrelevant points....pseudo-intellectualism at its finest.
 

skylights

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I wonder which is the greater likelihood: the abolition of unnecessary sensitivity or the triumph of forced social grace?

Do they need to stand in opposition? Seems to me the ideal interaction would incorporate respect for diversity of thought while allowing for a natural expression of human emotion to important ideas.

yeah. i think they both aim at the same eventual stuff anyway. don't all humans basically want the same thing? security, love, understanding, room for growth. what gets us in trouble is how we have such different ways of going about getting those things

Who cares? My whole aim at this site is to relax. I don't really want to get into that much depth on this website.... it's not real life. It's my escape from the seriousness of real life. I have had many people tell me that I'm "thoughtful", "analytical", "cerebral" and the like in real life. Why does it matter if people on the internet think I'm "thoughtless"? How much impact does it have on me in the real world.

yeah, seriously. honestly, i've joked about enjoying trolling before. i do, even though jaguar might condemn me for it. it's the internetz. being able to do whatever you want without real social implications. is half the fun
 

chris1207

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I'm a dumbass, mushbrain ENFJ. I can't take in anything that anyone says. Sometimes it's because I actively ignore people to protect myself, other times it's because my brain just doesn't listen. I also actively avoid going out into public. Relationships are so stressful. Ever since I can remember my most active outlets have been tv and videogames. I hate having to explain myself to other people. People always want an explanation and mine never seem to be satisfactory. T seems so damn simple and yet I can never say anything that approximates an answer that they want.

T really stresses me out. I'm unemployed right now. I need to find a job but I find it so extremely difficult to draw up a resume or do research. I get so tired after doing just 30 min to an hour of research. I've seriously gotten a good nights rest, gotten up, had a good meal, gotten to it and been back to sleep 2 hours later. Perhaps part of that is the stress of not having a job and feelings of worthlessness as a result. shrug

Giving in to T feels like giving in to everyone elses' opinion.
 

animenagai

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I'm a dumbass, mushbrain ENFJ. I can't take in anything that anyone says. Sometimes it's because I actively ignore people to protect myself, other times it's because my brain just doesn't listen. I also actively avoid going out into public. Relationships are so stressful. Ever since I can remember my most active outlets have been tv and videogames. I hate having to explain myself to other people. People always want an explanation and mine never seem to be satisfactory. T seems so damn simple and yet I can never say anything that approximates an answer that they want.

T really stresses me out. I'm unemployed right now. I need to find a job but I find it so extremely difficult to draw up a resume or do research. I get so tired after doing just 30 min to an hour of research. I've seriously gotten a good nights rest, gotten up, had a good meal, gotten to it and been back to sleep 2 hours later. Perhaps part of that is the stress of not having a job and feelings of worthlessness as a result. shrug

Giving in to T feels like giving in to everyone elses' opinion.

:hug:
 

duck!

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I'm a little late to the game, but I can give you my own insights on the ENFJ. (I have extensive experience; my father is an ENFJ.)

The stereotype here seems to describe the ENFJ a manipulative personality full of platitudes and no real opinions. I cannot state how different that is from what I know.

I think if you cut open my father's brain you'd see a thousand detailed blueprints for social change projects. He's got a few amazing ideas in his head and he's always trying to get the manpower to carry them out. He's incredibly disciplined when it comes to people and interpersonal affairs; he negotiated politics and backstabbing for 30 years to become his department's longest-serving tech services vendors. And his department is one of the toughest in the state.

My father's very technical -- he's a programmer -- but as soon as he could manage it he left coding and went on to manage coders and projects. He's superb at negotiating with people and pushing their buttons. He knows his opponent's psychological weaknesses and he does well at promoting harmony among the many programmers who work for him (not easy considering his programmers are at once high-ego and fragile).

My father is also someone who thrives on consensus. It's very difficult to know what he's thinking at any given moment of time. He's a huge devil's advocate. He also has difficulty admitting that something is objectively wrong. To him, the world is subjective. Every opinion has some validity, no matter how nonsensical it can seem to me or anybody else. As long as that opinion exists, it can be defended on an emotional level.

The few opinions he does own, he keeps very close to the vest and does not share. My father loves Mozart -- to the point of absurdity; I think we've got at least a hundred books about him at home -- and hates when others put his music down. We've come across people who do, but he doesn't defend his tastes. Afterward, we'll talk about it, and my father will admit to be flabbergasted/hurt/annoyed/upset that someone might say that about Mozart.

My reaction usually is: Why didn't you mention it at the time?
His: I didn't want to spoil /the mood/.

He also can sell his ideas very well and keeps his enthusiasm about something in check long enough to get the other person excited about it. (Something I have trouble doing.) He's got a healthcare tech project he wants to work on and he's already got sixty people on board! I think the idea is brilliant, but what's different about my father is that he can correctly gauge emotional climates on a macro and micro level and figure out what he can do and when. Once he leaves his state job, I can see him succeeding very well.

I don't know much about my father's childhood experiences. I don't even know much about what he thinks on a day-to-day basis. Though I'm sure we're close, again, he doesn't feel that he needs to share his opinions about things and often gets irritated when I ask him, directly, what he thinks about a particular subject. Often, he'll say, "I already told you!" when he never actually told me anything.

As a father, he's pretty prone to guilt-tripping. I can't tell you the number of times I've done something without realizing I've done it just to placate him or stop the constant flow of guilt-trips. He's also very aware of social protocols. He never liked it when I was untidy or spoke louder on the train than I should have. He also inherited some of his strict mother's social prejudices -- he's from a 3rd world country -- so sometimes there're some bizarre left-field judgments that get expressed in this context.

In general, my father is a very gentle and humane person with a great deal of empathy, social vision, and motivation. He's an excellent parent and has taught me a lot. He's always been an example of what I could achieve if I weren't so lazy, scatterbrained and undisciplined.
 
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