[ENFJ] ENFJ's: Not Manipulative.

[Domino]

Know what, I already had a reply ready moments after I posted that last message in this thread, then I went to sleep and mostly forgot it, but it was something like:

"If you really do practice not being understood, one practical outcome is, y'know, not being understood."

And there was a second sentence, but I forgot it. Wish I could remember, it was a good sentence. It had a subtext, something about management being more trustworthy than trust, but it didn't come out and say that directly. To my mind, that sentence, whatever it was and lost now, would have been more effective than this paragraph.

It's a pain in the ass, though, having direct request for information be met by generous feeling modifiers. I know one day it's going to come back and trip me up. I'll get more and more pissed off at the obfuscation, and then one day, a little more than late, someone'll come out with a clear statement and I'll have to back off being righteous.



"As extraverts, their contacts are wide ranging. Face-to-face relationships are intense, personable and warm, though they may be so infrequently achieved that intimate friendships are rare."

Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?! "Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful? That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.

 

[LadyJaye]

Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?! "Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful? That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.

+1

 

[Magic Poriferan]

To my knowledge, Fe doesn't definitively have to do with most of the things that have been attributed to it here.

 

[Synarch]

The CEO of a start up I worked for was ENFJ (I tested him). He was the consummate salesman.

He spoke in a very facile way about emotions and often used the personal story of his suffering and his journey to connect with the target audience (women). It became clear to me immediately (because I am skeptical of well-worn sob stories) that while what he was saying may have been factually true, he was using it to influence, to encourage identification. To connect, but to connect for a very strategic purpose, which was to influence. Because I saw the goal as wringing money from vulnerable women looking for answers, I deemed his behavior as manipulative.

This, to me, is the essence of Fe. This ability to connect. Fe in the hands of a good person can be used to lead, in the hands of a weak person, to manipulate. But, it is powerful, especially since so many people want and desire identification and connection. But with this power comes responsibility.

With regard to the ENFJ's on this thread, why do you take issue with people who have found ENFJ's to be manipulative? Why does this notion offend? I am curious as to the vehemence of the reaction and why it elicits such a strong response.

 

[Synarch]

Also.

1. Manipulation is not bad necessarily.
2. ENFJ's may be acting in what they feel to be someone's best interests when they manipulate.
3. ENFJ's may not be aware of their own abilities to influence other people as it is likely unconscious and natural in expression.

 

[Giggly]

Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

No, he said Fe stole his sex drive and his dignity. That statement stood out to me too. Weird.

 

[Synarch]

I never got the impression that ENFJs were generally disliked here (now other types, maybe...).

ENFJ's are actually the most liked and popular type, I would say. This is why I find their occasional persecution paranoia inexplicable. It's almost as if it's not enough to be loved and sought after, they must also never be criticized as criticism is equivalent to dislike somehow?

 

[The Grand Chameleon]

With regard to the ENFJ's on this thread, why do you take issue with people who have found ENFJ's to be manipulative? Why does this notion offend? I am curious as to the vehemence of the reaction and why it elicits such a strong response.

Personally, it elicits a stronger response when people aren't aware of my manipulative tendencies. It makes me question, "naivety vs. ignorance," and the confidence level the individual possesses in general. Even though I might be skilled in my art, to be completely oblivious is almost an impossibility.

Also.

1. Manipulation is not bad necessarily.
2. ENFJ's may be acting in what they feel to be someone's best interests when they manipulate.
3. ENFJ's may not be aware of their own abilities to influence other people as it is likely unconscious and natural in expression.

Assuming all three points to be true, you've effectively neutralized any further attempt to make myself appear unhealthy. I don't know whether to thank you or to turn sour.

 

[Synarch]

Personally, it elicits a stronger response when people aren't aware of my manipulative tendencies. It makes me question, "naivety vs. ignorance," and the confidence level the individual possesses in general. Even though I might be skilled in my art, to be completely oblivious is almost an impossibility.

Yea, I don't have a problem with manipulation per se. I do have a problem with dishonesty.

Assuming all three points to be true, you've effectively neutralized any further attempt to make myself appear unhealthy. I don't know whether to thank you or to turn sour.

You don't strike me as unhealthy. You cop to your weaker points.

 

[Kalach]

Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?!

Briefly.

"Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful?

Um, briefly.

That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

Straightforwardly so. Experience based. (Woe is me.)

Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.

It's even better than that: the victory is only in my mind.

And, oh hey, "victory"?


But yeah, I've taken a very defensive, even aggressive posture on "understanding", and I start from a biased position.

So?




And this reply constitutes a fallback position, one that comes into being when cooperation fails, and not the position I'd prefer to take. That I have spoken harshly, attempted disrespectful analysis, and been mean is not actually something to defend too strongly, but there has been some meaningful goal in there too.

So it's apology time?

I'm not sure that it is. Not sure that it isn't.




Waitaminute... I've been banging on about Fe Doms for, like, 6 months or more so I can make people feel bad? I've been seeking retribution?

Could be.

Or maybe I just got lucky and it's a side effect.

 

[SpottingTrains]

The CEO of a start up I worked for was ENFJ (I tested him). He was the consummate salesman.

He spoke in a very facile way about emotions and often used the personal story of his suffering and his journey to connect with the target audience (women). It became clear to me immediately (because I am skeptical of well-worn sob stories) that while what he was saying may have been factually true, he was using it to influence, to encourage identification. To connect, but to connect for a very strategic purpose, which was to influence. Because I saw the goal as wringing money from vulnerable women looking for answers, I deemed his behavior as manipulative.

This, to me, is the essence of Fe. This ability to connect. Fe in the hands of a good person can be used to lead, in the hands of a weak person, to manipulate. But, it is powerful, especially since so many people want and desire identification and connection. But with this power comes responsibility.

With regard to the ENFJ's on this thread, why do you take issue with people who have found ENFJ's to be manipulative? Why does this notion offend? I am curious as to the vehemence of the reaction and why it elicits such a strong response.

I like this.

 

[Afkan]

....This is the fuel that keeps our kind going: the notion that we actually impacted the world and made a difference. It has something to do with self-value, or how we find meaning in the world. Perhaps though, we should be more proud of our intuition in seeing what needs to get done, than to take pride in your success, no?

Umm, yes. Who wants to teach someone to be dependent on them? The whole point of teaching, for me at least, is the end result: watching the student fly away... Ahhhh, that is true satisfaction.
I know I am unhealthy whenever I want to keep someone under my wing. That is just WRONG.

To address the original question...
Thinking can feel so painful to me. And I do avoid my thoughts at times- bc they will lead to negative emotions. Realizations. Instead, I would prefer to live life happy and oblivious and share encouragement and praise. Yes, it is naive. And it SUCKS when I get ran over by reallity, smacked in the face once again: HelLOOOO!!!!

A big part of me would like to believe that putting on a happy face, and looking the other way when reality knocks, will help ease some of the pain and suffering in ppls lives.

The sad thing is, ENFJs- well for me at least- have SOOO much empathy that we see people's sadness and pain, all the time, and just file it away.

And then put on our mask to look happy and ease the pain and suffering-the pain & suffering we see everyday, in everyone's eyes. Its a fact of life for us. I mean, life is really truly about pain and suffering, and although you would never guess,
ENFJs usually know this more than ANYONE- bc we see the expansive view, big picture, of human pain/suffering among EVERYONE EVERY SINGLE DAY. Who wouldn't want to be a cheerleader in such a shit-uation?

The WORST part, though, is what so many people on this forum allude to: ENFJs live their whole lives trying to make other ppl's lives better, when the wide reaching (extroverted), deep and meaningful connections they make only leave people feeling as though they are missing something, empty, incomplete after the ENFJ is gone.

 

[Afkan]

..*sigh, sigh, sigh, sigh*

I think it's fair to say I fear and detest the influence of Fe in my life.

Am I allowed to say such things?[/size]

I couldn't tell. hehe

 

[Athenian200]

Have you ever considered (OUTSIDE YOURSELF) that some of us are dealing with all hell breaking loose at home and don't WANT to debate some nameless faceless persistently critical entity on the internet?! "Obfuscation"? REALLY?! Ever consider you don't get engaged because you aren't being respectful? That you're couching your OWN language to get a reaction? Didn't Fe take your dignity or something? Wow, how logical is THAT statement.

Really. I've borne your irrational crap and listened without trying to form a negative opinion of you in the name of understanding and being open-minded, but I'm done. You think you're right, so go ahead and be right. After all, being right in the internet is such a victory.

Umm... Pink?

A lot of people actually DO come on the Internet forums to debate. Particularly TJs. You seem awfully distraught. Don't you think it might have been better to wait until you were in a better frame of mind before laying into him?

You're pushing your Fe awfully hard on him, defining everything in terms of interpersonal consideration like a monster gone amok. I agree that Fe is important, but I don't like seeing it overrule Ni to the degree you're allowing. He's not trying to "give you irrational crap," he's trying to express what he finds frustrating about ENFJs and Fe in general. He just wants you (or any other ENFJ that will respond) to argue your perspective while he argues his, in order to learn. With the rebuke you gave, I bet he won't try THAT again. Is that what you were hoping for?

Oh... and, take care. I know you wouldn't normally react this way (because you're good at putting yourself in other's shoes), you were probably just out of sorts when you wrote this. It's okay to feel this way, of course, but it's really not necessary or helpful to anyone for you express it in this way.

 

[Heart&Brain]

Umm... Pink?

A lot of people actually DO come on the Internet forums to debate. Particularly TJs. You seem awfully distraught. Don't you think it might have been better to wait until you were in a better frame of mind before laying into him?

You're pushing your Fe awfully hard on him, defining everything in terms of interpersonal consideration like a monster gone amok. I agree that Fe is important, but I don't like seeing it overrule Ni to the degree you're allowing. He's not trying to "give you irrational crap," he's trying to express what he finds frustrating about ENFJs and Fe in general. He just wants you (or any other ENFJ that will respond) to argue your perspective while he argues his, in order to learn. With the rebuke you gave, I bet he won't try THAT again. Is that what you were hoping for?

Oh... and, take care. I know you wouldn't normally react this way (because you're good at putting yourself in other's shoes), you were probably just out of sorts when you wrote this. It's okay to feel this way, of course, but it's really not necessary or helpful to anyone for you express it in this way.

+1!

 

[Domino]

Normally react WHAT way? Because I'm usually nice to people even if they insist on being negative and counter-active? You're talking to me like I'm being irrational and I don't appreciate it. I've dealt with this guy's bad attitude for months, saying NOTHING, and now I am. I have never had an issue with people debating. Debates are meant to be constructive, and this isn't it. I know that you know the difference.

Don't tut-tut me. You're not my father, Athenian.

And I don't regret a WORD of what I said. I'd say it all over again and mean it just as much. You aren't an ENFJ and you haven't been hit over the head repeatedly about that and then treated like you should be okay with it. I've been here for about two years and I had to put up with a lot of ENFJs are the Devil crap, NOT YOU.

The minute I say something that strong, maybe you should consider that *I'm* part of the wronged party, not that I'm overreacting, because it goes against my general forum presence just as you say.

 

[Synarch]

It seems that this boils down to the following:

1. Some people have had bad experiences with Fe dom types in their life and are attributing some discomfort to Fe in general due to their experience with it.
2. Some Fe dom types could interpret a criticism of this experience with Fe as an criticism of ENFJ's in general.

Where is the middle ground? Can we acknowledge the bad experiences of the one with the unwillingness to be lumped into a bad grouping unfairly in the other? Surely we can find a way to listen to the concerns of each other without unnecessary hurt or criticism.

 

[Heart&Brain]

It seems that this boils down to the following:

1. Some people have had bad experiences with Fe dom types in their life and are attributing some discomfort to Fe in general due to their experience with it.
2. Some Fe dom types could interpret a criticism of this experience with Fe as an criticism of ENFJ's in general.

Where is the middle ground? Can we acknowledge the bad experiences of the one with the unwillingness to be lumped into a bad grouping unfairly in the other? Surely we can find a way to listen to the concerns of each other without unnecessary hurt or criticism.

Yep - EP's to the rescue of mediation and win-win solutions FTW!

 

[Synarch]

Yep - EP's to the rescue of mediation and win-win solutions FTW!

It just seems to me that there is a lot of unnecessary suffering at work here due to simple failures of mutual understanding and communication among people who should otherwise get along. We all really want the same thing. Consideration.

I do also know that Pink is a well-regarded member of the community. So, to see her feeling attacked seems to me to be out of kilter and unnecessary.

 

[jenocyde]

I do also know that Pink is a well-regarded member of the community. So, to see her feeling attacked seems to me to be out of kilter and unnecessary.

Yeah, seriously. People need to back up off of her.