• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ENFJ] ENFJ's: Not Manipulative.

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Because it would go against who I am and what I stand for. ENFJs, by definition, desire harmony.

Where does leadership fit in this story?

Actually, come to think of it, where does harmony come from?

Harmony with what?



(Again, genuinely curious.)
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Where does leadership fit in this story?

Actually, come to think of it, where does harmony come from?

Harmony with what?



(Again, genuinely curious.)

You guys are AWESOME!!! You can DO IT!!! I want you here, you here and you here. GO TEAM!
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Most types can be manipulative, the difference is in how they do it. NTPs will spin a web in which the only outcome that is "logical" is the one they present and must be followed, and if it isn't, that outcome isn't "logical" and therefore not what should be done. FJs tend to load questions or situations with emotional content so if you pick the "wrong" answer, you "look bad" and can get kinda trapped which can appear to be manipulation.

haha...very true. INFPs may attach a moral value to an issue so if you go against their view you will feel immoral. :tongue:

I think ENFJs can be effective at "manipulating" because they are so charming and seem so innocuous. I don't think it's usually their goal to "manipulate", but rather to "inspire" or "encourage" someone down the path they see as beneficial (seeking the win-win situation). If anything, that's a bit presumptuous, but it's not from a lack of good intentions or a desire to control someone for your own advantage.
 

The Grand Chameleon

New member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
144
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w2
I think ENFJs can be effective at "manipulating" because they are so charming and seem so innocuous. I don't think it's usually their goal to "manipulate", but rather to "inspire" or "encourage" someone down the path they see as beneficial (seeking the win-win situation). If anything, that's a bit presumptuous, but it's not from a lack of good intentions or a desire to control someone for your own advantage.

I believe it was stated before, but the two are often interchanged:

inspiration/encouragement = manipulation/deceit

Subjectivity. Those prone to the advice from a third party will go with the former, and those that look more to the self fall prey to the latter. It's like a David Blaine trick: there are those that allow themselves to be vulnerable to the "greatness", and others that believe standing in a cube of ice is characteristic of a retard. :)hi:)

But I do admire the efforts made to defend our type. :yes:
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
^
Oh, I do think ENFJs can be manipulative :D, and convince themselves and others that it's just "encouragement"; but I think it's fair to say it often is only encouragement, unless it's coming from an "ENFJ gone wrong". And I agree, it's often a matter of how it is received. I can be influenced by people like anyone, but my strong values keep me true to myself, so maybe that's why I don't feel manipulated by the ENFJs in my life and don't see them as "manipulators".

Although, I admit to getting annoyed when one ENFJ friend recently tried to take credit for something I've sort of "accomplished". This ENFJ felt he gave me the "nudge" I needed, but I felt I needed no nudge and it was all my own inclination. But whatever...it makes him happy to feel he had something to do with it :D
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
You guys are AWESOME!!! You can DO IT!!! I want you here, you here and you here. GO TEAM!

Task oriented?

There's something more, I think. Something about long-term vision. The dream.

Presumably something taking into account the idea of improvement, a focus on people improving.

So the harmony is not static. And it is or isn't task oriented? I'd guess... in principle... no?
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
When I rub panda babies and pat their fuzzy bottoms while cuddling and bottle feeding them, they accuse me of manipulation. But only if I accidentally turn them upside down. They really don't care for that.
 

jenocyde

half mystic, half skeksis
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Messages
6,387
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Oh wait, is your avatar of a baby panda??? I've been looking at that thing for months trying to figure out what new breed of water rat that was. I'm being serious. :doh:
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
Task oriented?

There's something more, I think. Something about long-term vision. The dream.

Presumably something taking into account the idea of improvement, a focus on people improving.

So the harmony is not static. And it is or isn't task oriented? I'd guess... in principle... no?

It's definitely about people improving. There is always room for improvement. I could get irritated with this but I'm like that too and no one is as hard on him as he is on himself. It's not task orientated unless it serves a bigger purpose, generally. There is always a long term goal or vision associated with most things. It's almost like sometimes a walk can't be just a walk. It has to be somewhere, going to something. I think this is one thing I have changed some about my ENFJ. He will walk with me for no other purpose than to walk now. He's still the best cheerleader anyone could ask for and motivation, tailored to the person, is absolutely his specialty. The manipulation comes in when they're going to motivate you whether you want it or not. I've never found this to be with malice. Never in my experience with him. They want to please and they want to be the lighthouse, the anchor, the safe harbor but they want to captain the fucking boat too. They can't do both. That makes the harmony difficult to maintain.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
It's definitely about people improving. There is always room for improvement. I could get irritated with this but I'm like that too and no one is as hard on him as he is on himself. It's not task orientated unless it serves a bigger purpose, generally. There is always a long term goal or vision associated with most things. It's almost like sometimes a walk can't be just a walk. It has to be somewhere, going to something. I think this is one thing I have changed some about my ENFJ. He will walk with me for no other purpose than to walk now. He's still the best cheerleader anyone could ask for and motivation, tailored to the person, is absolutely his specialty. The manipulation comes in when they're going to motivate you whether you want it or not. I've never found this to be with malice. Never in my experience with him. They want to please and they want to be the lighthouse, the anchor, the safe harbor but they want to captain the fucking boat too. They can't do both. That makes the harmony difficult to maintain.

:nice:

It does seem a fine tightrope to walk.


I've been wondering a thing recently about types with feeling as third or fourth function, and I wonder if it fits in this discussion.

If feeling is under less conscious control, or is something one is less aware of, or one has other more conscious functions they prefer to work with, then the feeling is--I dunno, maybe not immature, maybe it's better called "less likely to cooperate with what it doesn't instinctively recognise"--maybe that's a source of worry about manipulation?
 

The Grand Chameleon

New member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
144
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w2
^
Although, I admit to getting annoyed when one ENFJ friend recently tried to take credit for something I've sort of "accomplished". This ENFJ felt he gave me the "nudge" I needed, but I felt I needed no nudge and it was all my own inclination. But whatever...it makes him happy to feel he had something to do with it :D

You're a kind soul to allow him to believe he played a role in your success. :yes: This is the fuel that keeps our kind going: the notion that we actually impacted the world and made a difference. It has something to do with self-value, or how we find meaning in the world. Perhaps though, we should be more proud of our intuition in seeing what needs to get done, than to take pride in your success, no? :yes:
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I believe that interpersonal interaction inherently consists of mutual attempts at manipulation. So the only way not to manipulate people is to not interact with them.

The only time manipulation becomes wrong is when it's used to gain something for yourself while offering nothing, or something of less than equal value in return. In other words, if it's used to cheat or mislead. Otherwise, manipulation is positive/neutral, and even expected. What do you think employers are asking for when they want you to "sell yourself" or have good "people skills"? Heck, what do you think the entire "Public Relations" department of any company is for? ;)

And... do I even need to mention politics and politicians? Or what you're doing when you you look for a lawyer to "represent you"? All of these concepts and terms are just nicer ways of saying manipulation.
 

The Grand Chameleon

New member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
144
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w2
I believe that interpersonal interaction inherently consists of mutual attempts at manipulation. So the only way not to manipulate people is to not interact with them.

The only time manipulation becomes wrong is when it's used to gain something for yourself while offering nothing, or something of less than equal value in return. In other words, if it's used to cheat or mislead. Otherwise, manipulation is positive/neutral, and even expected. What do you think employers are asking for when they want you to "sell yourself" or have good "people skills"? Heck, what do you think the entire "Public Relations" department of any company is for? ;)

Interesting take. :yes: How would ENFJ fit into this model, then?
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Interesting take. :yes: How would ENFJ fit into this model, then?

They're simply people who have some of the best skills in this department. Just like a huge, muscled out bodybuilder (ESTx) has the best skills in the athletic department, or Nobel Prize winner (INTx) with several inventions and diplomas has the best skills in the intellectual department. Emotional manipulation is just another tool people have access to that can be used for either selfish or noble purposes. The same applies to intellect, weapons, tools, and strength.

The idea that a person with high capacity for emotional manipulation is likely to misuse it is based on the old idea that "Power corrupts absolutely." It's the same kind of thinking that leads to the idea that muscular people are violent and go around starting fights, or that intelligent people are mad scientists that want to take over/destroy the world with an invention.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I believe that interpersonal interaction inherently consists of mutual attempts at manipulation. So the only way not to manipulate people is to not interact with them.

That has always been my policy. Nonetheless, you poor saps out there expecting to manipulate and be manipulated, you're operating in an environment that is alien and offensive to me.

Are your schemes so corrupt that you cannot directly ask for cooperation? And cede me the right to answer yea or nay according to my own lights?




(Or, to put it another way, you've got a strange definition of "interaction" there.)
 

ENFJ_Catholic

New member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
136
MBTI Type
ENFJ
I'd rather advise the captain. But hey, if you're going to make me captain...why the hell not?!

Seriously though...self-improvement must be wanted by the person being improved. Otherwise, yes, it could be manipulation. But then the chicken and the egg question arises: when does one know he or she wants to change? Does it happen on its own or is there someone providing the catalyst for that change? And where's the line between "encouragement" and "manipulation?"

So Where's the fricken line?! :moodeath: Oh.... there it is. :newwink:
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
I'd rather advise the captain. But hey, if you're going to make me captain...why the hell not?!

Seriously though...self-improvement must be wanted by the person being improved. Otherwise, yes, it could be manipulation. But then the chicken and the egg question arises: when does one know he or she wants to change? Does it happen on its own or is there someone providing the catalyst for that change? And where's the line between "encouragement" and "manipulation?"

So Where's the fricken line?! :moodeath: Oh.... there it is. :newwink:

And sometimes I want a grilled cheese sandwich. Just a grilled cheese sandwich. When you listen before forming an opinion that I should probably add ham to that and I probably want a pickle on the side too, even if I don't say so, is when we start having problems.
 

ENFJ_Catholic

New member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
136
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Noted. Just a grilled cheese sandwich....


...Did you want fries with that? :tongue:
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
I'm going to go ahead and wonder a thing.

See, Te and Fi, they prompt me to speak the case to other people, to present it in whatever its merit, and leave it up to them to join in. If I really want them to join in, I'll say so, and try finding ways to direct their decision toward my cause. But the strongest decision someone else can make for my cause is one they make themselves, an uninfluenced decision. Technically, obviously, NO decision is uninfluenced, all sorts of influence was brought to bear. But the assumption on my part is someone will do something akin to what I would do: they'll check with the inner judge and see if it says yea or nay. And (theoretically) if they look like they can't access an inner judge, I'll make it easy for them, I'll offer many outs, many different ways to escape, lots of reasons to say no. Because someone who hasn't chosen by themselves is someone I CAN'T RELY ON. They'll only keep going with my project if I continually prop them up. Which I can't do. They have to reliably choose for themselves.

That's the theory. I made it sound nice and lovely.

So now... someone... cast it in a nice light, please, I'd like to know...

What does Fe and Ti prompt you to do?
 
Top