[ENFJ] ENFJ's: Not Manipulative.

[jenocyde]

Most types can be manipulative, the difference is in how they do it. NTPs will spin a web in which the only outcome that is "logical" is the one they present and must be followed, and if it isn't, that outcome isn't "logical" and therefore not what should be done. FJs tend to load questions or situations with emotional content so if you pick the "wrong" answer, you "look bad" and can get kinda trapped which can appear to be manipulation.

You're right. But both ways are deliberate, nothing just "happens" to be that way.

I'll assume you have never been in close proximity with a particularly manipulative ENFJ. NTP logic twisting is not in the same league as ENFJ subterfuge and subtle trickery. ENFJs' skills lie with people and feelings, and they know how to manipulate either or both, to their own aims. They know how to gloss over the truth and present it in an altered form that appears to be correct to those who are not keen enough to pick up on it. They are naturally dramatic and speak with conviction; they'll get under your skin to provoke an emotional reaction. People buy what they sell -- hook, line, and sinker. Those that suspect something is going on can't point it out logically so their claims look to have little veracity. All the facts and logical explanations in the world won't matter. Even the "enemy" may begin to believe them.

This may seem like an exaggeration, but I assure you, it is not.

An ENFJ did this to an INTP friend of mine, and he is still trying to pick up the pieces more than a year later. And I have at least a few ENFJs in my immediate family, so I know how they get when unhealthy.


That's not what I meant. I meant consciously turning other people against a person, people, or thing.

And you're right.


I am often "guilted" into things or made to look bad when dealing with one ENFJ in particular. Since I have Fe also, I can identify it when it happens, but I am helpless because I really don't want to be the bad guy.

I have a freeloader that was supposed to be here for 2 weeks and it's going on 6 months now, and I am powerless to stop it. He's an emotional predator, and I am thoroughly impressed.

 

[jenocyde]

Another example is this dude who gets under my skin. He pokes and prods and acts like an all around asshole - but he's so sweet and charming, how can anyone possibly get mad at him? I know him all too well though and he knows I'm on to him. So he pushes and take that one extra f***ing step and gets the expected result of me flipping out on him. Then he sits back with a stunned expression on his face and wonders aloud that "he has no idea what happened, he just asked a simple question and that evil jeno flipped out on me." Cue the harem girls running to comfort him and pamper him for the rest of the day. He's like a snake in the grass. Bastard.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

So he pushes and take that one extra f***ing step and gets the expected result of me flipping out on him. Then he sits back with a stunned expression on his face and wonders aloud that "he has no idea what happened, he just asked a simple question and that evil jeno flipped out on me."

Yup. It's like "Who me? I didn't do anything, it's that monster over there."

 

[Moiety]

Another example is this dude who gets under my skin. He pokes and prods and acts like an all around asshole - but he's so sweet and charming, how can anyone possibly get mad at him? I know him all too well though and he knows I'm on to him. So he pushes and take that one extra f***ing step and gets the expected result of me flipping out on him. Then he sits back with a stunned expression on his face and wonders aloud that "he has no idea what happened, he just asked a simple question and that evil jeno flipped out on me." Cue the harem girls running to comfort him and pamper him for the rest of the day. He's like a snake in the grass. Bastard.

Tsk tsk. You should know that a million half-crimes don't amount to even one full-crime.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Tsk tsk. You should know that a million half-crimes don't amount to even one full-crime.

Really, jen. You should be ashamed of yourself for flipping out on him like that. The moral character of such people as yourself.

 

[Glycerine]

whoa, the only person I ever really tried to sabotage was myself. However it is fun to word things in such a way to mess with folks (but never malicious).

 

[Moiety]

Really, jen. You should be ashamed of yourself for flipping out on him like that. The moral character of such people as yourself.

No, not lacking in moral fiber, just naive. You can't beat them at their own game, you need to go inventive on their arses. An insulting implication to be sure...considering Jenocyde's an ENTP

 

[jenocyde]

Hahaha, I'm more ashamed of always falling for it. but he knows that my kryptonite is that I can never walk away from a debate. I'm trying to, though.

 

[jenocyde]

No, not lacking in moral fiber, just naive. You can't beat them at their own game, you need to go inventive on their arses. An insulting implication to be sure...considering Jenocyde's an ENTP

exactly!

 

[Lauren Ashley]

whoa, the only person I ever really tried to sabotage was myself.

Every ENFJ is not like this, of course.

No, not lacking in moral fiber, just naive. You can't beat them at their own game, you need to go inventive on their arses. An insulting implication to be sure...considering Jenocyde's an ENTP

But in the cases where it is their word against yours, how do you get others to believe your side of it? The answer is, you can't. Only those who are sharp enough will believe you, and the others (99 percent of people) will stand behind the ENFJ.

 

[Moiety]

But in the cases where it is their word against yours, how do you get others to believe your side of it? The answer is, you can't. Only those who are sharp enough will believe you, and the others will stand behind the ENFJ.

Which is why "not giving a damn" is so important. Don't care what people, who wouldn't give you the benefit of the doubt or try to understand your viewpoint, think. Personally I might laugh at the whole thing if he was my friend or talk to him about it seriously and decide what stance to take depending on how he replied. Kudos to him for being a sly fox. Lashing out at him wouldn't never do any good though...because evidently most people are easily manipulable. You just gotta know your surroundings when playing the game. But it's also very important to be sure one is not making a value of judgement. He could be clueless, or Jenocyde was just more subconsciously grumpy that day or this or that etc

But to be clear both my last posts in this thread were meant to be humorous, not trying to make a point. I wouldn't even say this is a characteristic I'd attribute to ENFJs. I've asked in my first post what Brendan and others considered manipulative to understand the whole topic a little better.

 

[jenocyde]

Yes of course, we know that you were being humorous and I was speaking of only 2 specific people, not the type in general. Not everyone is clever enough to pull off manipulation, or even interested enough to do it. But I just think the capability is there. Hell, even I have it when I call up on my Fe when I am bloodthirsty for revenge, which is very very seldom, but it's there.

Yeah, and for the most part, I really don't give a damn and I tend to avoid people that make me miserable.

 

[Tiny Army]

While it is unfair to say an entire type is manipulative, I think we can all agree that every type is capable of manipulation in different ways. Given that statement, ENFJ manipulation is often most effective, at least on me.

 

[ajblaise]

My type does not manipulate. ENFJ just understands how his actions speak.

Discuss.

Yeah okay... and Tiger Woods never plays golf, he just understands the game real well.

 

[Clonester]

I'll assume you have never been in close proximity with a particularly manipulative ENFJ. NTP logic twisting is not in the same league as ENFJ subterfuge and subtle trickery. ENFJs' skills lie with people and feelings, and they know how to manipulate either or both, to their own aims. They know how to gloss over the truth and present it in an altered form that appears to be correct to those who are not keen enough to pick up on it. They are naturally dramatic and speak with conviction; they'll get under your skin to provoke an emotional reaction. People buy what they sell -- hook, line, and sinker. Those that suspect something is going on can't point it out logically so their claims look to have little veracity. All the facts and logical explanations in the world won't matter. Even the "enemy" may begin to believe them.

This may seem like an exaggeration, but I assure you, it is not.

How very true. Which reminds me- the ENFJ I know is a VERY successful salesperson. The cliche phrase "He could sell ice to an eskimo" very much applies.

If I have a choice to make, and my choosing option A will be better for the ENFJ than choosing option B, he will pull out the stops to make me choose option A. How can I say no? I've chosen option B before, and he will make me feel bad. Just from a decision!

 

[Domino]

Yeah okay... and Tiger Woods never plays golf, he just understands the game real well.

May I touch your helix?

 

[ajblaise]

May I touch your helix?

I... umm.. uh

Ah I'm caught in an ENFJ web!

 

[Domino]

I... umm.. uh

Ah I'm caught in an ENFJ web!

u r unner mai spelz

 

[Brendan]

this is the very definition of manipulation.


humans: manipulative.

manipulate |məˈnipyəˌlāt|
verb [ trans. ]
1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
• alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
• examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
• alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.

 

[ENFJ_Catholic]

You can manipulate. Why don't you?

Because it would go against who I am and what I stand for. ENFJs, by definition, desire harmony.

What is your definition of manipulative (Brendan) ?

I don't know what manipulative means , but I think I recognize the twisting of words MDP2525 mentioned in the ENFJs I know. Also a slight predisposition for double-standards maybe.

Double-standards do not promote harmony.

manipulate |məˈnipyəˌlāt|
verb [ trans. ]
1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
• alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
• examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
• alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.

Having influence over people (i.e. leading them) does not mean they are being manipulated. How that influence is used (and how it is gotten) is what makes or doesn't make some action manipulative, as Brendan notes above.

Unscrupulous: not scrupulous : unprincipled.
Unprincipled: lacking moral principles.

Morality and having or not having a well-formed moral view on human interaction (i.e. life) is not a type-specific thing. It's across all spectrums and all personality types. Let's not try to bash one or another. :hi: