[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

[Athenian200]

Well, I think if the friend had replied to the email or called and said she felt uncomfortable visiting, Lightyear would have understood. I could be wrong but I think it was the lack of consideration, not so much the lack of tangible help, that was the trigger for the OP.

I guess that's the thing... I'm the sort of person who might very well have written a long e-mail (or had a long phone call) telling them how bad I felt for them, asking paranoid questions about worst-case scenarios regarding their situation, and then telling them everything I can find out that might be helpful regarding their condition.

Then I would go ahead, write up a personalized get-well-card I think they'd appreciate, and then send it off.

At that point, I'd pretty much assume I had done everything I needed to. I wouldn't have even thought to mention visiting, because it's not the kind of thing that would normally occur to me unless someone mentioned it. And I'm fairly clumsy with practical stuff... I struggle enough taking care of my own practical stuff, I certainly don't want to take on someone else's.

I suppose the expectation bothers me, because it's something I'm not any good at. Not to mention that seeing people in that state, I'd probably break down so badly in front of the person that they'd probably have to reassure me that they were going to be fine... they don't need to see that. I'd rather they had someone stronger and more competent taking care of that stuff.

 

[proteanmix]

I guess that's the thing... I'm the sort of person who might very well have written a long e-mail (or had a long phone call) telling them how bad I felt for them, asking paranoid questions about worst-case scenarios regarding their situation, and then telling them everything I can find out that might be helpful regarding their condition.

Then I would go ahead, write up a personalized get-well-card I think they'd appreciate, and then send it off.

At that point, I'd pretty much assume I had done everything I needed to. I wouldn't have even thought to mention visiting, because it's not the kind of thing that would normally occur to me unless someone mentioned it. And I'm fairly clumsy with practical stuff... I struggle enough taking care of my own practical stuff, I certainly don't want to take on someone else's.

I suppose the expectation bothers me, because it's something I'm not any good at. Not to mention that I'd probably break down so badly in front of the ill person that they'd probably have to reassure me that they were going to be fine... they don't need to see that. I'd rather they had someone stronger and more competent taking care of that stuff if possible.

I think this is totally fine.

I guess for me it's easy to squash my "personal" feelings on a certain level. Just this week one of my friend's was in a talent show and it was raining outside and I just wanted to sit inside the house and veg out. But I got up and went anyway. I know hospitals make some people extremely nervous but I don't have that particular reaction. It's so many different variables in situations like this, it's hard to know. I usually ask when in doubt, what would you like me to do? Some people might even get offended because you asked and didn't know. What can you do about that? Nothing.

professor: LOL @ retrograde feeder.

 

[garbage]

Did you ever ask her to come over, or are you just assuming that any reasonable person would think of doing so? Because, uh, I don't see why that in itself merits special attention. If I were injured, the last thing I'd want is people imposing themselves on me, trying to make me feel better. Since, you know, there's nothing for them to do. If I want the attention, I'll ask for it.

Yeah.. I'd be really uncomfortable with people trying to help me if I didn't ask them to do it. I've been in several situations where I felt that I could and should get by on my own, but yet I had people drop in unexpectedly. I appreciated the gestures, but it wasn't what I needed. If they truly wanted to help me, it stands to reason that they'd figure that one out.. especially after I tell them exactly that.

To me, if you drop by or try to help in these ways, you're doing me a disservice. It's just trying to help without regard to the person you're actually helping. Which.. yeah, isn't helping at all. It's a form of selfish altruism.

As a small example, if I have a migraine, there's no way that I want to be taken care of. I need to be left to my own devices. I have told people that, if I have to talk to them, I'll end up being more agitated, more direct, and less sensitive with them, unless I reach out to them first. Then they drop by anyway and then wonder why I'm so insensitive.

.. and then they expect me to return the "favor." I must ask.. what favor am I returning, exactly?

 

[Amargith]

+1

 

[rainoneventide]

Yeah.. I'd be really uncomfortable with people trying to help me if I didn't ask them to do it. I've been in several situations where I felt that I could and should get by on my own, but yet I had people drop in unexpectedly. I appreciated the gestures, but it wasn't what I needed. If they truly wanted to help me, it stands to reason that they'd figure that one out.. especially after I tell them exactly that.

To me, if you drop by or try to help in these ways, you're doing me a disservice. It's just trying to help without regard to the person you're actually helping. Which.. yeah, isn't helping at all. It's a form of selfish altruism.

As a small example, if I have a migraine, there's no way that I want to be taken care of. I need to be left to my own devices. I have told people that, if I have to talk to them, I'll end up being more agitated, more direct, and less sensitive with them, unless I reach out to them first. Then they drop by anyway and then wonder why I'm so insensitive.

.. and then they expect me to return the "favor." I must ask.. what favor am I returning, exactly?

Exactly!

If you want to base the worth of your friendships on how well a person continually tries to prove they're your friend by meeting your tacit expectations, then fine, but honesty, that sounds like a really shitty relationship. If that's your view, I'm sure tens and thousands of people feel the same way. So have fun with that. I don't want any part of it.

Maybe this is why the divorce rate has gone up?

Edit: "You" doesn't refer to anyone specific, just using it in a general way

 

[OrangeAppled]

That's why I sent her an email first, telling her about my accident but didn't say "Please, please visit me!!", I didn't want to make her feel unnecessarily pressured.

One thing I have a problem with (from my Fe point of view) is that this Fi desire of keeping it real can get in the way of actually truly practically helping people. One example: A girl from my home group in church hurt her back pretty badly and is supposed to move house on Saturday. She sent around emails to the people in my home group asking if they are free on Sat and can help her move her stuff since she obviously is just in too much pain to do so. She isn't a close friend at all but I agreed to help her (and I am not saying this to blow my own trumpet, honestly not), when it comes to helping people I just have this very rational equation in my head:

Person is in obvious need + I have the resources/time to help her + I don't feel like this person is just constantly milking everyone for favours/ emotionally manipulative but is in genuine need = I help her

It's as simple as that and I don't wait for some inner peace/enlightenment or whatever to come over me, if there is a need that I can meet I meet it unless I feel the other person is a manipulator.

The difference between your email & the woman with the hurt back is that she specifically stated her need for help. I would respond to that. If someone doesn't ask for help, then no, it does not always occur to me that they need or want it. I must be told in clear terms. I don't know why, but I am just oblivious to practical things like that sometimes.

I have no idea what you mean about waiting for inner peace to come over you. I don't think you're understanding Fi by that statement.... Of course we can put ourselves aside and help people when we're not "in the mood". However, we may not think to help people if we don't realize they need it or want it. We may have different ideas of what being considerate is, such as giving a person with a broken leg some space unless they specifically ask for a visit.

 

[heart]

Yeah.. I'd be really uncomfortable with people trying to help me if I didn't ask them to do it. I've been in several situations where I felt that I could and should get by on my own, but yet I had people drop in unexpectedly. I appreciated the gestures, but it wasn't what I needed. If they truly wanted to help me, it stands to reason that they'd figure that one out.. especially after I tell them exactly that...

Yes, that would be terribly invasive and actuall controlling of another person. But to be clear no one in this thread has suggested anyone push help on another person or go visit without calling first. There's got to be a middle ground.

I have no idea what you mean about waiting for inner peace to come over you. I don't think you're understanding Fi by that statement.... Of course we can put ourselves aside and help people when we're not "in the mood". However, we may not think to help people if we don't realize they need it or want it. We may have different ideas of what being considerate is, such as giving a person with a broken leg some space unless they specifically ask for a visit.

I would engage Ne and ask what they wanted before assuming they wanted space. I know that not everyone wants what I think they may want.

This board is an priceless tool for perspective, the number one thing that other types complain about INFP is that the INFP stays too distant, doesn't give enough feedback, doesn't engage enough, doesn't receprociate enough. To do so requires use of Ne, to test the waters, to find out what others are really feeling, not just what Fi suggests they may be feeling. Tertiary temptation would urge an INFP to stay locked into Fi-Si and focused on their own interpretation of what others may need or want from them.

 

[mwv6r]

Unfortunately I've had a similar experience with an unhealthy INFP. She was the closest friend I've ever had. Throughout college we were unseparable. I seriously loved this girl and would do anything for her. We laughed together, cried together, the whole nine yards, and it was a huge deal for me because I don't let many people in that close outside of a romantic partner. She frequently professed to feel the same way about me. I graduated a year earlier from college than she did and I assumed that keeping in touch would be no problem because it's not that hard to pick up a phone and call someone once in a while. Boy was I wrong. She didn't return my calls, and if I did get a hold of her and make plans, 9 times out of 10 she'd break them. On the rare occasions that we did actually see each other it was like everything was back to normal and nothing had ever changed. If we'd lived in the same town maybe I could have pursued the friendship by just showing up at her door. But living in two different states, that just doesn't work. It made me sad but I had to let her go. I simply stopped calling and stopped trying to keep in touch with her. That was three years ago. It was very very painful for me although over the last year I've finally gotten over it and made peace with the situation. About six months ago I got a long letter from her apologizing and asking if we could still be friends. I wrote back and said yes of course we could, she could call me anytime. Even before sending it back I knew I wouldn't hear from her. And I haven't.

Yes, I do think this is related to Fi, though it's Fi gone wrong. Healthy Fi does not look like that. My friend's behavior is not only a function of Fi but also of her being ridiculously far on the perceiver scale to the point where she seems unable to fulfill very basic obligations. She also smoked pot constantly and from what I understand dabbled in harder drugs. And she was on anti-depression medication. Although I don't know how much I can blame on the drug use because when she sent me that letter six months ago she claimed to be off drugs for good. But maybe now she prefers not to pursue the friendship because she's embarrassed by her past behavior? Who knows. Like I said, I've finally found some peace in the situation and am not really sad or angry with her anymore. Well, still a little sad, but I've accepted things.

 

[Lightyear]

It made me sad but I had to let her go. I simply stopped calling and stopped trying to keep in touch with her. That was three years ago. It was very very painful for me although over the last year I've finally gotten over it and made peace with the situation. About six months ago I got a long letter from her apologizing and asking if we could still be friends. I wrote back and said yes of course we could, she could call me anytime. Even before sending it back I knew I wouldn't hear from her. And I haven't.

The same with my INFP. When we are together it's like everything is back to normal cause as I said, we really get each other as people, I love her weird, random Ne thinking and she seems to be very intrigued by me.

But the thing is even if I told her that I think she is just a shitty friend and could she please invest a little bit in the friendship by saying hello via email etc at least once every few months I don't think it would help much, she might promise to do it but would pretty quickly stop or forget about it since she "just doesn't feel like it". And unfortunately a friendship with zero communication isn't a friendship anymore, it's just a big nothing.

Two days ago it was my birthday and I didn't hear from her at all (while I used to in the years before, even if she just sent me a text message) and with other people it wouldn't annoy me so much (sometimes people just forget) but with her it's just another nail in the coffin of the friendship because I am thinking: "I was unfortunately expecting that." I'll go back to Germany for two weeks in August and am thinking if I should contact her at all to meet up (also her birthday is around the time I will be in Berlin), and she would probably say yes but in some ways I just couldn't be arsed anymore. I have much better friends and people that don't just make me feel like I am investing me energy in a big black hole, so whatever. I am not really at the point yet where I can let the thing completely die but it might just fade away at some point soon.

 

[Udog]

About six months ago I got a long letter from her apologizing and asking if we could still be friends. I wrote back and said yes of course we could, she could call me anytime. Even before sending it back I knew I wouldn't hear from her. And I haven't.

Yes, I do think this is related to Fi, though it's Fi gone wrong. Healthy Fi does not look like that. My friend's behavior is not only a function of Fi but also of her being ridiculously far on the perceiver scale to the point where she seems unable to fulfill very basic obligations.

Some people make life happen, while others let life happen to them and react. I notice alot of INFPs fill the latter category.

Her letter was likely a request that you reengage in your role of the 'friendship initiator'. She wants the friendship to return to how it was, because that's what she knows and is comfortable with.

Lightyear and mwv6r:

One thing I find a bit unfair in all of this is that the INFPs are just being who they are. They haven't changed, but rather your expectations of them as a friend have changed. Which is FINE. I agree that friendships are 2 way paths, and you have reached a point where you need maintenance of their part.

However, it's a bit unfair that you drop them without having a serious conversation informing them of these changes!

For example, the "she could call me anytime" thing is a good start, but considering the history of the friendship, I could easily see that as a polite dismissal. You were the one always calling THEM. That was the social contract you guys had engaged in. If you want to give the friendship the best chance it has to survive, you need to tell them what the new rules are so they can either change or decide it's no longer worth it.

 

[Glycerine]

The essence of the Fi/Fe clash I have noticed a lot of Fe types expect you to read their mind because they are always trying to consider the other person and tend to project their own strengths onto other people. As a result, when others (Fi users) don't reciprocate how the Fe operates, they take it the wrong way (the person doesn't care about me or is being selfish). I have been guilty of this many times. From my experience, the Fi user isn't trying to be mean. They are just oblivious to what Fe user expects because the Fe user will assume that it is completely obvious and won't think to lay things out.

The irony is that Fi users could view the Fe user's expectations as selfish. That is the impression I keep getting from this thread.

 

[Udog]

You speak very true.

However, when the Fe user suddenly changes the rules on a multiyear friendship, how do they expect anyone to automatically read into that? It seems like a test that is designed to make a person fail.

 

[Tiny Army]

We're all terribly selfish but it's okay because we have you guys to save us from our horrible ways and take us down the path of righteousness!

 

[Glycerine]

You speak very true.

However, when the Fe user suddenly changes the rules on a multiyear friendship, how do they expect anyone to automatically read into that? It seems like a test that is designed to make a person fail.

No idea, whenever I have done that, I think I purposely tried to sabotage the friendship or I did it to test the friendship. Not my proudest moments. Another possibility is that I think people can read the changing dynamics and will act accordingly. There's yet another example of projecting my abilities onto another person.

We're all terribly selfish but it's okay because we have you guys to save us from our horrible ways and take us down the path of righteousness!

I hope you are kidding. Most Fe types are not self-righteous, controlling jacka$$es and most Fi types are not elitist nonconformist jerkfaces.

 

[Tiny Army]

Theoretically.

 

[mwv6r]

The irony is that Fi users could view the Fe user's expectations as selfish. That is the impression I keep getting from this thread.

I don't think expecting your best friend to pick up the phone and give you a call a few times a year is selfish (hell even twice a year. even once a year is better than nothing at all). I don't think I'm selfish for expecting a very basic level of thoughtfulness/consideration from a friend. After being stood up over and over again and having my phone calls go unreturned over and over again, there came a point when I had to close the door to avoid being hurt continuously. And I'm happy to do more of the work in a friendship (being the one to call more often, visit more often, etc.) but if I'm getting absolutely nothing at all in return, I'm sorry but it is just not going to work. I need the other person to work with me just a little at least.

And I just want to clarify -- looking back over this it strikes me that I sound like some kind of stalker of her or something or that I was always trying to hang out and maybe she just wasn't interested anymore. That's not how it was at all. Whenever we were actually together, it was like everything was just the same, and she would get emotional and tell me how much she cared about me and how much she valued my friendship, etc. But it was like the logistics were impossible for her for some reason that I just don't understand. It was a rollercoaster ride going through that because I would feel so hurt by never hearing from her, then I'd spend time with her and we were just as close of friends as ever and I'd get my hopes up again, and then the next time I tried to give her a call it was back to the same. A person can only go through that for so long. My fiance was very angered by the situation because he saw the ups and downs it caused and how hurt I was whenever she'd stand me up. He didn't want me to invite her to our wedding. I did anyway -- like I said I'm not angry with her, and I'm more than willing to leave the door open for her, but the ball is absolutely in her court now, I simply don't have the emotional willpower to take an active role in our friendship anymore.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not claiming that her behavior is due to her being an INFP or due to Fi. As I said, she's an unhealthy INFP, so I'm not extending her behavior to other, healthier INFPs out there. An unhealthy INFJ might be prone to histrionics and oversensitivity, but that doesn't mean that all INFJs would suffer from such episodes. (At least not too often, anyway )

 

[Glycerine]

I don't think expecting your best friend to pick up the phone and give you a call a few times a year is selfish (hell even twice a year. even once a year is better than nothing at all). I don't think I'm selfish for expecting a very basic level of thoughtfulness/consideration from a friend. After being stood up over and over again and having my phone calls go unreturned over and over again, there came a point when I had to close the door to avoid being hurt continuously. And I'm happy to do more of the work in a friendship (being the one to call more often, visit more often, etc.) but if I'm getting absolutely nothing at all in return, I'm sorry but it is just not going to work. I need the other person to work with me just a little at least.

And I just want to clarify -- looking back over this it strikes me that I sound like some kind of stalker of her or something or that I was always trying to hang out and maybe she just wasn't interested anymore. That's not how it was at all. Whenever we were actually together, it was like everything was just the same, and she would get emotional and tell me how much she cared about me and how much she valued my friendship, etc. But it was like the logistics were impossible for her for some reason that I just don't understand. It was a rollercoaster ride going through that because I would feel so hurt by never hearing from her, then I'd spend time with her and we were just as close of friends as ever and I'd get my hopes up again, and then the next time I tried to give her a call it was back to the same. A person can only go through that for so long. My fiance was very angered by the situation because he saw the ups and downs it caused and how hurt I was whenever she'd stand me up. He didn't want me to invite her to our wedding. I did anyway -- like I said I'm not angry with her, and I'm more than willing to leave the door open for her, but the ball is absolutely in her court now, I simply don't have the emotional willpower to take an active role in our friendship anymore.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not claiming that her behavior is due to her being an INFP or due to Fi. As I said, she's an unhealthy INFP, so I'm not extending her behavior to other, healthier INFPs out there. An unhealthy INFJ might be prone to histrionics and oversensitivity, but that doesn't mean that all INFJs would suffer from such episodes. (At least not too often, anyway )

I apologize, I wasn't necessarily aiming the post at you. It was more of a general post but I am sorry if it seemed like an attack on you personally. Also, I was trying to put another perspective out there (damn Ni, haha). You didn't come off like a stalker at all. I actually have a rather one-sided friendship with an INFP also so I pretty much gave it a hiatus. I can empathize with you on that.

 

[mwv6r]

Thank you, I appreciate the clarification )

 

[Lightyear]

I don't think expecting your best friend to pick up the phone and give you a call a few times a year is selfish (hell even twice a year. even once a year is better than nothing at all). I don't think I'm selfish for expecting a very basic level of thoughtfulness/consideration from a friend.

Yes and yes and yes. I am actually incredibly easily satisfied when it comes to my friends contacting me, I understand completely that they might be busy and might not be able to contact me for a long time and as soon as I see any kind of small effort from them (a short email, a Facebook comment, whatever) a lot of times I forget all my misgivings and grudges and immediately consider them as part of my closer circle of friends again. That's why I find it so hard to completely let a friendship go because even the smallest effort from the other camp will make me think: "Oh she probably still cares, she just didn't have the time to contact me/is just not good at keeping in touch/is just a bit scatterbrained/...", I will give them the benefit of the doubt and come up with all kinds of excuses why it's actually understandable that I didn't hear from them for such a long time.

So if someone has made it to a stage where I honestly couldn't be arsed to invest in the friendship anymore there has been a long history of selfish behaviour, not just one or two incidents but a constant flow of incidents that revealed some major character flaws in the person, they didn't just behave in a certain way because they were in a bad mood or because of unlucky circumstances (or even because of their Fi ) but because they are just plain selfish. Full stop.

 

[Udog]

For what it's worth, I don't expect my friends to contact me just to keep in touch. Nor do I expect them to remember my birthday. As such, it can be difficult for me to keep in touch and remember theirs.

If I do those things for a friend, it's one of the highest compliments I can offer. It means I care enough to do things I'm not geared to naturally do. They'll never know the meaning I put behind such things, because to them it's just expected as a social grace.