[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

[heart]

I guess as long as I don't make any true friends, I won't have to worry about that. Thank goodness.

I'm totally uncomfortable with that expectation. It's one thing if I'm asked to help, or I get a hint that they want me to visit... that's fine. But to be expected to take the initiative and OFFER help, and push my presence on them when they might be in such a bad mood that they might not even want company?

That's why a person calls in advance before going over. If you call and they say they don't feel like seeing anyone right now then drop the issue and call again in a few days to see how they are doing. It just takes a few moments, if the person is important to one.

But leaving to them to ask for help, they may really NEED help but feel like they don't want to impose and make their friends feel like they can't say no to a plea for help. It takes a lot more to say no to a request for help than an offer for help.

I am just thing about the real friends I've had in the past, they would have done all this for me and I feel that I would owe them the same, mostly because I care about them and I want them to feel better if I can help. It is an indication of how invested the other person is in the friendship.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I wouldn't do it because it is expected or a "norm" I would do it because I remember what it is like to be bored and/or lonely when sick or when I was helpless and how good it felt when someone helped me.
But then again, I am talking about when it is true friendship.

Good point, and I don't think Lightyear is expecting this strictly out of norms either. This is where the line between Fe and Fi blurs. It just so happens that most people want to be treated with kindness and consideration. If one does this in order to keep in harmony with someone (Fe, and that is the primary way I use Fe, so I'll go with that) or if one does it because they have discerned that this is an individual need/is humane (Fi), there is no difference.

 

[Orangey]

Question about this, and this isn't necessarily directed to you. If the person comes to you with their expectations, will you see them as being presumptuous and overly forward? Because this seems like the catch-22 I mentioned earlier.

I don't know, it seems like if someone expressed directly that they were feeling bad/needing help, and they wanted me to do something to help them out, I would be more than glad to oblige. I think it's presumptuous to expect someone to do things for you without you telling or asking them in a more or less direct manner (it could even be a hint, but not too subtle). I don't really understand your catch-22, I guess. Could you perhaps explain a bit more why someone would think that a person was "overly forward" because they stated their expectations/directly asked for favors?

 

[Thalassa]

I would like to throw in here that maybe she isn't really as good of a friend to you as you would like her to be. I mean, that's obvious, but what I'm really trying to say is that maybe she really isn't interested in your friendship anymore. It happens sometimes after high school, sometimes after high school friendships fade. You mentioned that you always have to contact her. Maybe it's time to let this friendship go for your own emotional health.

 

[Athenian200]

That's why a person calls in advance before going over. If you call and they say they don't feel like seeing anyone right now then drop the issue and call again in a few days to see how they are doing. It just takes a few moments, if the person is important to one.

But leaving to them to ask for help, they may really NEED help but feel like they don't want to impose and make their friends feel like they can't say no to a plea for help. It takes a lot more to say no to a request for help than an offer for help.

I am just thing about the real friends I've had in the past, they would have done all this for me and I feel that I would owe them the same, mostly because I care about them and I want them to feel better if I can help. It is an indication of how invested the other person is in the friendship.

People actually expect this level of investment?

I'm very uncomfortable making offers, and I don't like the idea of pushing to stay connected to people in the face of negative or absent feedback.

The more I talk to you, the more disgusted I am with your expectations. I really hope everyone isn't like you, or I'm just going to forsake people altogether.

I cannot BELIEVE the kind of entitlement some people feel. The nerve!

 

[Udog]

Question about this, and this isn't necessarily directed to you. If the person comes to you with their expectations, will you see them as being presumptuous and overly forward? Because this seems like the catch-22 I mentioned earlier.

I certainly used to, and may still feel that way as pure gut reflex. It took various things for me to realize what I was doing. During that time, what I did was to ask questions while I was experiencing that initial stave of annoyance or anger. It gave me time to cool down and gain understanding.

Now, thanks partially to these forums, I have a much better understanding of the mindset. With understanding comes a new found appreciation.

It still doesn't prevent that initial feeling of violation, though.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I don't know, it seems like if someone expressed directly that they were feeling bad/needing help, and they wanted me to do something to help them out, I would be more than glad to oblige. I think it's presumptuous to expect someone to do things for you without you telling or asking them in a more or less direct manner (it could even be a hint, but not too subtle). I don't really understand your catch-22, I guess. Could you perhaps explain a bit more why someone would think that a person was "overly forward" because they stated their expectations/directly asked for favors?

Gladly. The thought is that the person is pushing their own needs on you, with the expectation that you will accomodate them. They feel they are entitled to have their needs met. Not only that, but they are impinging on your freedom to your own thoughts and decisions; basic rights as an individual.

Example: "I need you to buy me candies and flowers on Valentine's Day. And call me after work every day to make sure I am okay. And..." To you, would this just amount to being clear about needs/expectations? Or is it going a bit beyond that?

 

[Udog]

In my reply above, I should note that necessity makes a huge difference. If someone I cared for was in genuine need, I'd jump happily at a chance to help.

 

[heart]

People actually expect this level of investment?

I'm very uncomfortable making offers, and I don't like the idea of pushing to stay connected to people in the face of negative or absent feedback.

The more I talk to you, the more disgusted I am with your expectations. I really hope everyone isn't like you, or I'm just going to forsake people altogether.

I cannot BELIEVE the kind of entitlement some people feel. The nerve!

I had a true friend who taught me how to be a friend. That's all I can say. And to say I don't think this is a an Fe/Fi thing.

 

[BlackCat]

Example: "I need you to buy me candies and flowers on Valentine's Day. And call me after work every day to make sure I am okay. And..." To you, would this just amount to being clear about needs/expectations? Or is it going a bit beyond that?

I've always conflicted with people who hold holidays and tradition important. If I had a SO on valentine's day I'd say "happy valentine's day, I love you." Then probably do something for her or something with her, like go out to her favorite restaurant or something like that. If someone told me what to buy them I wouldn't see the value in that... it's like "alright alright just buy me this so I won't get pissed off at you. To show that you care I need physical things, not just your word".

Like I was saying before, it would be my own subjective opinion of what they deserve on that day. Depending on how much someone matters to me, I'll do varying things for people on their birthdays or holidays. I'll try to think of something creative and cheap that my closest friends will like just for the good gesture, and for people below that I'd just say "merry christmas" or "happy birthday" and hang out with them if they wanted me to.

I think FPs and FJs get along when the FP's actions are tweaked toward what the FJ expects, and this happening naturally aids the process.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

People actually expect this level of investment?

I'm very uncomfortable making offers, and I don't like the idea of pushing to stay connected to people in the face of negative or absent feedback.

The more I talk to you, the more disgusted I am with your expectations. I really hope everyone isn't like you, or I'm just going to forsake people altogether.

I cannot BELIEVE the kind of entitlement some people feel. The nerve!

...So. Would you like to hang up your INFJ hat now? Because INFJs are all about intuiting other's unspoken needs and obliging them, to a certain extent.

 

[Athenian200]

I had a true friend who taught me how to be a friend. That's all I can say. And to say I don't think this is a an Fe/Fi thing.

You're right. It isn't.

It's a perspective thing. Personal truths are very much tied up in this kind of thing.

Perhaps... this is why close friends are so rare. Because most people only align on the surface, but have all these unspoken needs. And unfortunately, not everyone has the same unspoken needs, so they always misinterpret one another's actions according to the needs and perspectives they think should be obvious to others.

The ones that you "click" with... have similar or complementary unspoken needs.

I guess I can say that this is true for you and Lightyear, because it's a part of how you perceive friendship... but I don't think it's true for everyone.

...So. Would you like to hang up your INFJ hat now? Because INFJs are all about intuiting other's unspoken needs and obliging them, to a certain extent.

Ah... not really.

Because this is something I try to do... but only within certain limits. I won't oblige anything that I'm uncomfortable with, or that seems unreasonable to me. I'm usually very good at picking up on hints others didn't even know they were giving.

I'm just disgusted that someone would have the nerve to... expect what she said she expected. To think of them as less of a friend for not taking a proactive approach. Without even bothering to find out why, and there might have been a good reason... such as the one heart dismissed earlier. That whole hardline, "This is right and kind and this is wrong and selfish, there are no excuses!" approach.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I've always conflicted with people who hold holidays and tradition important. If I had a SO on valentine's day I'd say "happy valentine's day, I love you." Then probably do something for her or something with her, like go out to her favorite restaurant or something like that. If someone told me what to buy them I wouldn't see the value in that... it's like "alright alright just buy me this so I won't get pissed off at you. To show that you care I need physical things, not just your word".

Oh, I was just using that as a random example. Not that candies and flowers are what Fe expects on V-day (at least not me; it would be nice, but it's not a neccessity). I think Fe just wants you to show, in some way (any way!), that you care. It could be simple, personal, idiotic, whatever. But it needs to be expressed.

I think FPs and FJs get along when the FP's actions are tweaked toward what the FJ expects, and this happening naturally aids the process.

Hmmm. I've been in friendships/relationships with FPs where it worked in the reverse. But I think it is a bit different for IxFJs because their Fe is secondary.

 

[heart]

Without even bothering to find out why, and there might have been a good reason... such as the one heart dismissed earlier.

I didn't dismiss it, I said if she's that neurotic about being around people with injuries (like just having a cast on a foot) she needs serious therapy. What would she do if someone who depended on her needed her help while injured? What if someone had their foot taken off by a circular saw and she was the only one around? Would she run away and let them die? How could an adult get that far into life with such a serious neurotic fear? Everyone has someone get injured around them at some point and they have to deal with it. It's part of being a member of the human race. If that were the case, the INFP needs to be in therapy and yes, they do need to tell their close friends and family about their disability.

 

[alcea rosea]

To the OP:

You just might see the friendship differently.
She might show you appreciation the way you don't understand it.
You might expect things/behavior from her that she doesn't reagard as important.

It might be due to misunderstanding, the whole thing?

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I'm just disgusted that someone would have the nerve to... expect what she said she expected. To think of them as less of a friend for not taking a proactive approach.

Welcome to the world of friendship.

Wikipedia (and wikipedia is clearly the end all, be all) says this about friendship:

Friendship is co-operative and supportive behavior between two or more people. In this sense, the term connotes a relationship which involves mutual knowledge, esteem, and affection and respect along with a degree of rendering service to friends in times of need or crisis. Friends will welcome each other's company and exhibit loyalty towards each other, often to the point of altruism. Their tastes will usually be similar and may converge, and they will share enjoyable activities. They will also engage in mutually helping behavior, such as exchange of advice and the sharing of hardship. A friend is someone who may often demonstrate reciprocating and reflective behaviors.

 

[Athenian200]

I didn't dismiss it, I said if she's that neurotic about being around people with injuries (like just having a cast on a foot) she needs serious therapy. What would she do if someone who depended on her needed her help while injured? What if someone had their foot taken off by a circular saw and she was the only one around? Would she run away and let them die? How could an adult get that far into life with such a serious neurotic fear? Everyone has someone get injured around them at some point and they have to deal with it. It's part of being a member of the human race.

Technically, they can. The person could reasonably have a fear that being around an injured or ill person could be dangerous. Which is reasonable, because there's a chance that whatever injured them is still around, or that you could catch a disease from them.

And you have no business telling me what being human is all about, and what's neurotic. Don't you dare talk down to me like that.

 

[BlackCat]

Oh, I was just using that as a random example. Not that candies and flowers are what Fe expects on V-day (at least not me; it would be nice, but it's not a neccessity). I think Fe just wants you to show, in some way (any way!), that you care. It could be simple, personal, idiotic, whatever. But it needs to be expressed.

Yeah. Was just adding to the point that you Fe users need to realize that Fi users will have a subjective view on how they should treat someone.

Hmmm. I've been in friendships/relationships with FPs where it worked in the reverse. But I think it is a bit different for IxFJs because their Fe is secondary.

Interesting. I dunno. The two would need to adjust to each other! Now that I think about it my INFJ best friend did this with me, since you INFJs adjust to people by picking up on their needs. Over the years he's gotten more up front with me, adjusted to my humor, gotten more blunt, etc. It's good. I've also adjusted to his needs too.

Agreed on IXFJ's Fe being second and effecting it.

 

[heart]

Technically, they can. The person could reasonably have a fear that being around an injured or ill person could be dangerous. Which is reasonable, because there's a chance that whatever injured them is still around, or that you could catch a disease from them.

And you have no business telling me what being human is all about, and what's neurotic. Don't you dare talk down to me like that.

A woman laying in a bed with cast on her foot is a very different senario than being out on the open plains after someone has been mauled or being in a plague house.

It's a neurotic fear. It's not a rational way for a human being to go through life. A person with a fear like this needs help or else life is going to be very, very hard for them.

You're twisting my words a bit there. It's a fact that part of being a member of the human race is interdependence. We may not like it, but it is there. When we get injured we have to rely on others for help when others are injured we have to pitch in and help.

Edit: Almost everyone is uncomfortable visiting someone they care about who is sick or in pain--they feel they don't know what to say or how to act, etc--- but they put their own discomfort aside, their own fears aside and they do what they have to do. It's just part of life.

 

[Athenian200]

Welcome to the world of friendship.

Wikipedia (and wikipedia is clearly the end all, be all) says this about friendship:

Ah.

Well... umm... I hate to say this, but I'm really only willing to offer people words. I'll send them a card or something without even being asked, no problem. But I'm not big on... crisis stuff and being there. When a crisis is going on, I'd rather not be there. It's too much for me to be around that, I'd get overwhelmed.

Why can't people just see each other when they're in GOOD health and can entertain each other adequately? What's with all this crisis stuff and practical help?

we have to pitch in and help.

Not really. And no one can make me. That's someone else's responsibility, specifically that of a nurse or doctor that works in a hospital. I won't accept a responsibility I didn't take on.

You may think it's irrational, but there are more scenarios in which it would be valid than not.