[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

[Athenian200]

Fi can definitely be selfishness related.

But in this case, I think you're the selfish one. You want them to take time and visit you when you're bedridden, without being asked, and when doing so probably wouldn't even be enjoyable? Don't you think that's a bit childish? It sounds to me as if you're only considering your own feelings here.

Personally, I'd be so ashamed of what a mess I was that I wouldn't WANT anyone to see me like that. So I might actually consider her behavior to be kinder than insisting on showing up and making me feel bad because I'm in such an ill humor and can't entertain them adequately.

The point is, not everyone would want what you're describing. Also, some people feel extremely uncomfortable/awkward around injured or sick people. Did you not consider that possibility?

 

[rainoneventide]

That's what I am doing, I am not trying to change her since I can't so I am finding myself new friends. But again I don't get this notion that you shouldn't even expect the most basic things from your friends since you are supposedly hindering them "being themselves", what foundation would such a friendship be built upon? That's what I am wondering about, that Fi introspective navelgazing can become so extreme that it's all about "My feelings. My values. My needs." and the Fi-user doesn't even realize how he builds an invisible wall between himself and people around him and ostracizes them. (Also please correct me if I am understaning Fi wrong, that's just how it comes across to me.)

Ahh okay, that's good. I'm hypersensitive when it comes to that subject, sorry.

You're right; they can become extremely focused on their inner-world so much that the outside world becomes a blur, not noticing how their distant behavior is perceived by others. I think the best thing you could do, if you still want to be friends, is send her an email or letter on the things you've written about here. She'll have more time to process what you're saying without feeling pressured and withdrawing even more. That will hopefully bring you closure, and hopefully, she'll take what you've written to heart. If not, there's nothing else you can really do.

 

[Udog]

Fi can be self-centered by nature, which can make us awesome as we do kind things not because 'it's expected by the situation' but because we are being genuine, or make us suck as we become self involved.

That's what I am doing, I am not trying to change her since I can't so I am finding myself new friends. But again I don't get this notion that you shouldn't even expect the most basic things from your friends since you are supposedly hindering them "being themselves", what foundation would such a friendship be built upon? That's what I am wondering about, that Fi introspective navelgazing can become so extreme that it's all about "My feelings. My values. My needs." and the Fi-user doesn't even realize how he builds an invisible wall between himself and people around him and ostracizes them. (Also please correct me if I am understaning Fi wrong, that's just how it comes across to me.)

It is one way that it reflects. But honestly, if the INFP is to that point the friendship is hanging on by a thread.

If you want any chance of the friendship to survive, you need to tell her at least some of what you told us. She likely may very well not realize your needs aren't being met because she's stressed and having trouble getting out of her own head.

Edit: Has she been going through anything that would cause her intense stress?

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Fi can be self-centered by nature, which can make us awesome as we do kind things not because 'it's expected by the situation' but because we are being genuine, or make us suck as we become self involved.

The doggy dog has spoken. I was typing out a response saying just this, except with a long and convoluted example of my INFP father literally taking the shirt off his back to give it to someone who I felt didn't deserve it. Glad you saved me from that. Whew!

Oh, and don't worry -- he had an undershirt!

 

[Thalassa]

Nope.

Fe can be selfish too, as in they want to talk to you and hang out with you and bug the shit out of you whenever THEY feel like it then whine about it when you don't. Unhealthy Fe can be invasive, needy, and overbearing.If that's not selfish, I don't know what is.

 

[Wiley45]

Also, I get the impression that you feel like she's not giving you much thought and you're not on her list of priorities but on the hand, she probably still cares about you but she does not feel obligated to do customary things for you. She probably thinks all those things are superficial and you know you're going to be friends regardless.

Agreed. I have had friends and family members get really angry at me for being a "bad friend," and it honestly had NOTHING to do with a lack of caring. It's just that I am horrible at "customary." I'll go get pizza with a friend at 3AM or send a card and flowers on some random non-holiday, or any other number of fun and meaningful things, but when it comes to "customary," I'm awful. Some of it is because I'm disorganized, some of it is because I'm nervous, and some of it is because "customary" things take an insane amount of energy and are really taxing for me. If I had to invite someone over to my house and cook dinner/entertain, I'd seriously be freaking out for weeks and I'd be a nervous wreck to the point of physical sickness. I know it's weird. I totally admire people who can do that sort of thing without even thinking about it. But I'm not that kind of person. I try to show how I care as much as I can, but sometimes people misinterpret or don't understand because it's not in the normal form they're used to experiencing.

I don't know if that gives any insight into your situation. Obviously every person is an individual, and we all have to work to meet in the middle, so it's hard to tell who's at "fault" just from this conversation. Pay attention to her words, though. INFP's really mean the things they say. Has she wished you well even though she didn't come to visit? Take things like that as a sign that she does care.

 

[Orangey]

Your examples of her "selfishness" are extremely weak. Ignoring you when she needed space (a common introvert behavior), and failing to visit/comfort you through a common injury? Failing to initiate (a common INP behavior)? Don't you have anything more egregious to tell us so that we might sympathize with you? And I doubt these are specifically INFP, or Fi-related, behaviors. I've known many types that exhibit the same behavior that you're describing, including INTPs (myself), INTJs, ENTPs, ISTJs, and ISTPs.

 

[dotdalidot]

I've actually wondered this myself many times before. I'm consistently being scolded by my parents about how selfish and or inconsiderate I am. They believe that I don't follow social norms and that I don't do enough to please people. They say that I should follow the rules established by the social order and that I should find my place and or "role" in society. Basically, that I should have more Fe. This offends me though, because I really don't see myself as selfish, I actually find myself doing people an injustice if I fake who I am and don't do things with true sincerity. Also they believe in rankings and such, and that those with higher status should never be disrespected no matter what they do. I on the other hand do not look at the status of a person, I believe we are all human beings. I mean seriously, we all materialize the same way, and decompose the same way etc etc. If I'm disrespected, by the president himself, then I will retaliate, especially if it's important to me.

My mother finds this very selfish and wrong. But then what is it when someone does things only because that is the "way it's supposed to be"? Isn't that worse than selfishness? You're not TRULY caring for the person if you only do them a service because its your "duty". Why not do something for them because you KNOW what it feels like, because you truly understand what they are going through, rather than you think you understand, or you're supposed to understand?


Hmm...I don't really know where I am going with this...

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I've actually wondered this myself many times before. I'm consistently being scolded by my parents about how selfish and or inconsiderate I am. They believe that I don't follow social norms and that I don't do enough to please people. They say that I should follow the rules established by the social order and that I should find my place and or "role" in society. Basically, that I should have more Fe.
... But then what is it when someone does things only because that is the "way it's supposed to be"? Isn't that worse than selfishness? You're not TRULY caring for the person if you only do them a service because its your "duty".

This would be Si, with a sprinkle of Fe.

 

[TheEmeraldCanopy]

The thing about an INFJ and INFP friendship is that both people have their own set of expectations that often times go unvoiced and unnoticed; one of these expectations is that we expect each other to be mind readers.

Be open in communicating your wants and needs with each other. If she fails to fulfill your wants, at least you'll have the knowledge that you tried, and you'll also know what you can and can't expect of her. Ultimately, it keeps you from getting disappointed and hurt again. Best of luck to you.

 

[heart]

For example I broke my foot last year and had to spend a lot of time at home and though I told her about my accident via email pretty soon and she lived just twenty minutes walk from my flat it didn't occur to her at all to pay me a visit during these weeks.

Unless the friend (INFP) was sick herself or had some problem (and I mean a real problem) that we don't know about, this is just pure selfish behavior.

There's just no way around it, it's thoughtless and selfish. And it certainly speaks volumes about where Lightyear is on the INFP in question's list of priorities.

The least thing would have been to visit, the best thing would have been to offer practical help.

 

[dotdalidot]

This would be Si, with a sprinkle of Fe.

Ah, so that's what it is.....Hmmm... Well no matter, it's still pure ridiculousness.

 

[Athenian200]

Unless the friend was sick herself or had some problem (and I mean a real problem) that we don't know about, this is just pure selfish behavior.

There's just no way around it, it's thoughtless and selfish. And it certainly speaks volumes about where Lightyear is on the INFP in question's list of priorities.

The least thing would have been to visit, the best thing would have been to offer practical help.

That's such an unbelievable sense of entitlement. That's like saying your parents are selfish because they don't give you an allowance.

And why is the possibility of a person being uncomfortable around sick or injured people not even being considered here?

 

[BlackCat]

Anyone can be selfish. It's a subjective opinion. Someone could point the finger at you and say something like "why are you expecting her to know all of this stuff? To know to do all of this stuff for her without any communication involved? And you're making new friends because of this? How selfish!"

I am so bad with Fe it isn't even funny. The "normal" things that are expected of people I'm just totally blind of for the most part. I don't really care about social norms, I treat things and people the way I see fit. I just really don't see a purpose to a norm... shouldn't you have a subjective way of treating individuals rather than assuming everyone will want to be treated the same way? This doesn't mean I'm not nice to people... yes I'm nice. But it's different.

^Just my opinion though. The same opinion might hold for other INFPs as well.

I myself would have gone to visit a friend of mine if they were injured though... seems like common courtesy. But again, your INFP's subjective opinion on how things should be ethically treated is different from mine. So that would explain that.

 

[heart]

That's such an unbelievable sense of entitlement.

No, it's not, because I am answering from the perspective of if I had a "friend" who had broken their foot and was laid up for three weeks. I am thinking of my friend. A true friend would just want to be there for the other and to make the time pass easier. They would ask "Would you like for me to pick up some ice cream and come over?"

They would ask "Do you need me to pick some items up for you when I go shopping next time? Can I help you with your laundry?"


I wouldn't do it because it is expected or a "norm" I would do it because I remember what it is like to be bored and/or lonely when sick or when I was helpless and how good it felt when someone helped me.
But then again, I am talking about when it is true friendship.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Anyone can be selfish. It's a subjective opinion. Someone could point the finger at you and say something like "why are you expecting her to know all of this stuff? To know to do all of this stuff for her without any communication involved? And you're making new friends because of this? How selfish!"

Question about this, and this isn't necessarily directed to you. If the person comes to you with their expectations, will you see them as being presumptuous and overly forward? Because this seems like the catch-22 I mentioned earlier.

 

[heart]

That's such an unbelievable sense of entitlement. That's like saying your parents are selfish because they don't give you an allowance.

I don't even get the connection here. Friends are people we pick voluntarily because we like their company and we feel affection for them. Parents do owe children certain duties. If parents don't teach their children how to handle money, then yes they are selfish.

And why is the possibility of a person being uncomfortable around sick or injured people not even being considered here?

She broke her FOOT, it's in a cast. It's not a bleeding, open, purtrifying wound.

If the INFP feels that neurotic about injuries, she needs serious therapy to function in society. What the heck is she going to do when someone close to her who depends on her gets really sick? Bail on them?

 

[Udog]

The thing about an INFJ and INFP friendship is that both people have their own set of expectations that often times go unvoiced and unnoticed; one of these expectations is that we expect each other to be mind readers.

Yes! Our similarities make it so we fail to see how fundamentally different we are.

 

[BlackCat]

Question about this, and this isn't necessarily directed to you. If the person comes to you with their expectations, will you see them as being presumptuous and overly forward? Because this seems like the catch-22 I mentioned earlier.

Yeah I probably will. The way I pick up on people's expectations is by having them gradually introduced, and my figuring them out based on their reactions to things that I do. However sometimes I pretty much fail at doing this, and I've had FJs just totally cut me off before (since I guess I didn't meet their expectations). Like I said, I'm just bad with Fe. It feels like a handicap.

This also might explain why out of the 20+ people I talk with only one is an FJ. And he's my best friend (INFJ), but he accepted my attitude because he saw that I was good at heart. Then I gradually adjusted to him, and now the interactions are just natural (I don't even have to think when I'm interacting with him, since I unconsciously know his expectations).

 

[Athenian200]

No, it's not, because I am answering from the perspective of if I had a "friend" who had broken their foot and was laid up for three weeks. I am thinking of my friend. A true friend would just want to be there for the other and to make the time pass easier. They would ask "Would you like for me to pick up some ice cream and come over?"

They would ask "Do you need me to pick some items up for you when I go shopping next time? Can I help you with your laundry?"

But then again, I am talking about when it is true friendship.

I guess as long as I don't make any true friends, I won't have to worry about that. Thank goodness.

I'm totally uncomfortable with that expectation. It's one thing if I'm asked to help, or I get a hint that they want me to visit... that's fine. But to be expected to take the initiative and OFFER help, and push my presence on them when they might be in such a bad mood that they might not even want company?

I... just don't get it. I will never understand people on more than a superficial level. People are easier to deal with when you deal with them as a group and don't get too personally involved with any one individual. Things get unacceptably weird and unpredicatable with "true friends."

I don't even get the connection here. Friends are people we pick voluntarily because we like their company and we feel affection for them. Parents do owe children certain duties. If parents don't teach their children how to handle money, then yes they are selfish.



She broke her FOOT, it's in a cast. It's not a bleeding, open, purtrifying wound.

If the INFP feels that neurotic about injuries, she needs serious therapy to function in society. What the heck is she going to do when someone close to her who depends on her gets really sick? Bail on them?

It seems to me that this person would likely avoid putting themselves in a position where someone else would depend on them, doesn't it?

I see exactly where you're coming from now... and I don't like it. That will be all, heart.