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  1. #231
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Aug 2008
    9w1 sp/sx
    INFp None


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wouldn't anything be blind to Fi unless it expresses itself?
    Good point - and I think so.

    If Fi wants to be appreciated, it needs to give the proper meaning behind its actions. Fe becomes much more reasonable if it knows that my taking the time to listen to a problem is an expression of a deep caring.

    In the same way, Fi needs to seek deeper meaning behind an action of an Fe user. If I know your birthday is important to you, it pings on my value of what a friendship is, and I no longer view it as a stupid social more, but something that is meaningful to my dear friend.

    Or maybe the friendships are viewed at one level by one party and another by the other and they think they're on the same page but they're not.
    This is very true! In fact, better understanding of the needs of Fi vs Fe is the singular most important thing I've learned via MBTI. It was a very difficult concept for me to wrap my mind around, but once I did I finally am able to understand why some of my friendships turned out the way they did. I can also understand that someone's need to get me to express how I feel isn't an attempt to threaten my core values.

  2. #232
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    Aug 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, this is based on Tiny Army's posts but not necessarily directed at her, do Fi users have little to no expectations of the implicit expectations of the group of people you consider "friends?" Just the general concept of a friend: someone you can talk to, someone you can share yourself with, someone you can rely on, etc. How do Fi users believe those assumptions about the role a friend has in your life play out practically?

    Let's take birthdays for example. OK, you don't care about birthdays, they're empty and meaningless and you could care less if anybody remembers your birthday. If you have a friend who does not share your beliefs about birthdays would put aside your own personal beliefs and do something special with or for your friend, regardless of your personal value about that event is? Is it enough that your friend values it so therefore you'll value it as well? Or is it a matter of if it has no value to you, very little would move you towards valuing this hypothetical event?

    Would you not be touched that even though you've made it clear that you don't do birthdays, someone remembered yours and did something special for you: a gift, a handwritten note, anything? Or would you interpret the acknowledgment of the birthday as some form of manipulation on the friends part, chastising you for not valuing theirs? Because I think people are talking past each other but really saying the same thing. I don't believe Fi users reason this way, but I'm being fairly extreme to make a point. If the friend is upset that because you have a personal belief that recognition of birthdays isn't a necessary component of friendship, how do you broach that topic with your friend? Do you show your appreciation for your friend in other ways that would make the friend more understanding of your belief? What type of communication is going on on the part of the Fi user in communicating the lack of significance of certain acts to others in order for there to be middle ground.

    I agree that some needs and expectations should be articulated explicity but would you really want someone to hand you a list of Things I Expect From You As A Friend? Some of these things seem, well obvious. But I also realize what seems obvious to me is not always obvious to other people.

    So for another example you're becoming good friends with a person and they say explicitly, "You know birthdays are really important to me and I enjoy celebrating mine and my friends. I expect you to do something for me on my birthdays and not forget." The tone isn't harsh or demanding, just a simple statement of expectation. I'm being dead serious, I'd look at that person like a rabbit just jumped out of their left ear. I don't know, that seems so presumptuous to me. It seems to me people are expecting a level of communication that is highly atypical in most interactions.
    Well, I'm very direct with people about certain things. I never give a present without thorough investigation or asking in advance. I do like to give gifts usually. However, it does annoy me to be asked to. It does seem "presumptuous". I know someone who gave a friend of mine a gift three months after my friend's birthday and a week before her own. No offense but that's blatant manipulation. I actually would have been much more comfortable with her asking me "get me this for my birthday". Needless to say, my friend didn't give her a present.

    If I do something for someone it's because I care.

    Honestly, it all matters about how much I appreciate the other person. I have an ISFP friend and we go see movies together. Now I hate the comedies she likes but I like to spend time with her so I go along.
    Fi is not about being unable to compromise and discredit people's needs. We just hate BS.
    But really, I think this has little to do with Fi in the end...

    It makes me happy that she's enjoying the movie and frankly I can watch what I want to watch on my own. I don't need her to be with me although I appreciate it more when she is. I don't take it personally if she doesn't come along with me to do what I want. I'll do it anyways.
    I'm an Fi user. Being able to do things for other people because it matters to them is not hard for me at all because I enjoy seeing them happy:

    My mother watched a perfume obsessively in a store and sighed at how good it smelled wishing she could have it. That was three months before christmas we were just passing by a store.
    For christmas I told her to give me some money to buy my friend a present but it was in reality to buy that perfume. Now, I don't really care all that much about presents myself, I'd rather receive money.(If I don't need anything I don't care about presents. Really if there's nothing I want I'm fine with no christmas presents. That's happened in the past)
    I think it's cute when people get me presents though. I can appreciate the gesture.

    I know my mother loves this and that so I get it for her. However, when she comes and asks me to do things for her or uses some undercover manipulation it ticks me off.
    Why? Because I don't like to feel pressured. It has to come from me, I don't like to have other people in my "decision making" process. If I feel like the person is whining about how much they do for me and I don't all I say is:
    "I appreciate your work but it's not in my nature to do that. So stop doing things for me now, I don't want to be indebted to you in any way. Then we'll both be happy. That way, you won't have any reason to feel unappreciated and I won't feel pressured."

    I gave her that present because it made me happy but that other girl using the lame trick would not have gotten any anytime soon if I were my friend.
    I don't except anything from my mother now because I have the satisfaction of just having given and it stops there. I don't except her to give me anything fancy.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

  3. #233
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008


    Damn thats one lack of loyality.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  4. #234


    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Okay, let's say we have been good friends since high school shouldn't there be some basic things I can expect from the other person? Like that I don't always have to initiate contact, that it shouldn't take the other person six months to visit me even if they just live twenty minutes walk from me, that they actually reply to text messages? I mean if such basic things like just simply staying in contact are not given can I even call this relationship a friendship or is it just a joke or some empty carcass?
    I agree with this. There are things that are common decency to do, especially if you care. There are cases where it is a must, and cases where it isn't. For example some of my closest friends I've known since I was zero. If we don't see each other for a year there aren't going to be hard feelings. If I have known someone for a shorter period and see them often then break it off, it does suggest certain things about the relationship. Also, not replying to text messages is just rude, inconsiderate, whatever other term you want to use. If there is some innocent reason like checking it when busy then forgetting, okay that happens. If you actively don't reply or communicate, what is the other person meant to think? Should they make all the exceptions in the world for you because it is your right to not reply?

    I do have a problem with my auxiliary, which sums up the world of personal effect, being called selfish, or uncaring. But I think that many of the actions of this person she has the problem with are. And I don't think it is a type conflict, or conflict of philosophies. I'd say it is just careless behaviour. Though linking a type to behaviours like this, and calling a cognitive function selfish isn't much better imo.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  5. #235
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009


    I'm an ISFP and my ENFJ husband frequently calls me selfish and self absorbed. His mom is an INFJ .. she is the most self sacrificing person I know. I feel that he is constantly comparing me to her. I can't begin to explain how it feels to be compared to someone who is a "Mother Theresa" type. Either you accept her for who she is or move on. Wish he would do the same!

  6. #236
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    9w8 sp/sx


    So this might shed some light on how Fi can be used in their negative forms as first and second functions:

    For Fi as 1st function (ISFP/INFP):
    Since introverted Feeling is often the process that is most trusted, they may engage in it too much and use it in a dominating way. They dig in their heels in support of an absolute ideal. They may also rigidly adhere to certain beliefs and values, perhaps ones that are reactionary against what's judged as wrong with the world around them, such as social injustice, unethical behavior, hypocrisy from people they know, or suffering they witness first-hand. They can insist on complete devotion to the cause and on being pure and seem very critical when others don't live up to their high standards.
    For Fi as 2nd function (ESFP/ENFP)
    Since introverted Feeling is likely to be a trusted process, they may engage in it in an overprotective and stunting way. Others may view them as selfish. They seem to just do whatever they want. As they grow, they value patiently abiding others and life in general. Under stress they may rigidly evaluate someone or something as either completely good or bad--as if their options are black and white. Or they may rigidly adhere to certain values and beliefs and thus miss out on experiencing something new.

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