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[Fi] Are Fi and selfishness related?

mwv6r

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One point I want to make, after some reflection --

It's not my intention at all to negatively stereotype Fi types in this thread, and I hope it hasn't come across that way. I've had one negative experience with a single unhealthy INFP, but I've known many, many INFPs, ISFPs, ENFPs, and ESFPs who I've gotten along with very well across the board. I really enjoy spending time with my Fi friends and family members -- many seem to have a peacefulness and inner moral compass that I admire.
 

Lightyear

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One point I want to make, after some reflection --

It's not my intention at all to negatively stereotype Fi types in this thread, and I hope it hasn't come across that way. I've had one negative experience with a single unhealthy INFP, but I've known many, many INFPs, ISFPs, ENFPs, and ESFPs who I've gotten along with very well across the board. I really enjoy spending time with my Fi friends and family members -- many seem to have a peacefulness and inner moral compass that I admire.

Same here. There are good and bad eggs everywhere.
 

mortabunt

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I think that Fi is selfish, because it is your own inner beleifs and to whatever bad version of the afterlife you beleive in with everyone elses. BUt, Fi in moderation is a good thing.
 

Udog

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I think that Fi is selfish, because it is your own inner beleifs and to whatever bad version of the afterlife you beleive in with everyone elses. BUt, Fi in moderation is a good thing.

Let me ask you this: Is there any function that isn't selfish?
 

Tiny Army

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But again, I have a lot of trouble picturing an INFJ or ISFJ doing that. Were these people you were dating? Sometimes with an increased level of intimacy a person might feel more entitled to drop in on short or no notice. .


Ooooh! We used to be roomates, the ISFJ, INFJ and I and then I moved to a different floor of the same building because we needed very different things out of a roomate relationship. Them assuming that the roomate intimacy we had the previous year still applied would totally explain that behaviour.

One of the reasons I moved out was that they expected us to spend a lot of "roomate time" together doing roomate activities when I was more interested in meeting new people and exploring the city. I think this made them feel as though I didn't care about maintaining strong roomate relations as much as they did.
 

Erudur

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Fe, that has to do with what others want.

But it also has to do with how others are expected to behave.

Having a fairly well developed tertiary Fi, for me Fi informs my system developing Ni-Te to make sure that the system is beneficial to mankind.

********************

On the OP, I have a friendship with an INFP that is currently in the process of eroding. It was really good to read this thread to see the big picture better. Still don't know what I am going to do about my friendship in particular. It basically requires my initiation to maintain. I also perceive that wherever I am on her list of priorities, its probably much lower than where I had been placing her on mine. Once I shifted my priority on the friendship to what seems to me to be her same level, the downhill slide began. At this point I am probably going to just let it end up wherever it does.
 

Lightyear

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Fe, that has to do with what others want.

Healthy Fe can be like that but unhealthy Fe can be very manipulative, the person doing you a favour just to tell you later: "I did this, this and this for you, if you would be as good a friend you would do that for me..."

I had an ESFJ friend (primary Fe user) who was very much like this, I knew whenever I asked her for a favour that at some point there would be "payday", she would remind me of all the things she had done for me in the past, why could I not love her more, spend more time with her, call her more often etc. I think on a basic level you can expect these things in a friendship but when every "favour" has a paydate connected to it that is deadly for a friendship, she is the only friend I ever had to actively end the friendship with.

However at the moment I have an ESFJ flatmate and she is genuinely caring and generous, with her I actually feel like doing nice things for her because she gives without demanding things in return.
 

PeaceBaby

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However at the moment I have an ESFJ flatmate and she is genuinely caring and generous, with her I actually feel like doing nice things for her because she gives without demanding things in return.

Perhaps your INFP friend senses you keep score? Do you see how your question has now circled back on itself? Are you the one in that relationship who seems to be demanding and therefore she avoids you?

Food for thought ...
 

Tiltyred

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Lightyear, I think it's important to cultivate friendships with people who acknowledge the obligations of friendship, and probably diminish contact with people who consistently disappoint you or make you do all the work. If the other person does not have the same view that friendship comes with obligations, then you are probably going to feel chronically unloved.

On the other hand, I think it's very important for us INFJs to communicate our needs. So you might say after you talk to that person, "Ok, now, it's your turn to call me next, because I'm always the one to call you!" or even "I was hurt when you never came to see me when I broke my foot."

I do in my heart feel the same as you, that there are things you should not have to say, things you should be allowed to expect, things you should wonder why they aren't happening. But I think it has to do with upbringing, too. Sometimes other people have no idea you would expect these things and need to be told what you want in plain English. I would not automatically interpret it that they don't love you. It's possible they have no idea what that means, and they need to be made aware.

It drives me a little nuts, the claim that it's so much effort to make the gestures of friendship. It's effort for me, too, that's why I don't spread myself too thin. I know I can't keep up with umpteen birthdays, etc. I have one or two friends at a time and try to do right by them, which IMO takes SHOWING you care. You know who people are by what they do rather than what they say.

Otherwise, I don't consider it a friendship. I consider it liking the other person. I can like you and you like me without it being a friendship.

I'd be a'slammin' that door if I were you. Put the effort toward someone who can reciprocate.

My 2 cents.
 

Udog

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Fe, that has to do with what others want.

That's not quite what Fe is. Fe focuses on how others express their values. As such, it requires people to actually express those values, or it can feel neglected and isolated.
 

Tiny Army

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Re: Lightyear and Tiltyred's posts.
Please do illuminate me as to what these "unspoken rules of friendship" are? Did the government circulate a checklist for what friendship means? Did God come down from the sky and tell you exactly what friendship means?

These are YOUR standards of friendship not the world's. When I broke my leg I wanted people to come visit me and spend time with me. My INTP friend on the other hand HATES to be visited when she's sick. When she's already feeling crabby people make her feel crabbier. Is it not therefore fair for her to assume that one is a terrible friend for dropping in and bugging people when they're sick?

Nobody knows the other person's standards of friendship until they are explicitly stated and I deeply resent the implication that someone else's standards of friendship are somehow innately better or more valid than mine.

Also:
Healthy Fe can be like that but unhealthy Fe can be very manipulative, the person doing you a favour just to tell you later: "I did this, this and this for you, if you would be as good a friend you would do that for me..."

Isn't that exactly what you are doing in this thread?! You may not be saying it to the person directly at hand but you're still declaring that if your Fi using compatriots were as good friends as you they would return all the favours you have done for them.
 

Tiltyred

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Re: Lightyear and Tiltyred's posts.
Please do illuminate me as to what these "unspoken rules of friendship" are? Did the government circulate a checklist for what friendship means? Did God come down from the sky and tell you exactly what friendship means?

These are YOUR standards of friendship not the world's. When I broke my leg I wanted people to come visit me and spend time with me. My INTP friend on the other hand HATES to be visited when she's sick. When she's already feeling crabby people make her feel crabbier. Is it not therefore fair for her to assume that one is a terrible friend for dropping in and bugging people when they're sick?

Nobody knows the other person's standards of friendship until they are explicitly stated and I deeply resent the implication that someone else's standards of friendship are somehow innately better or more valid than mine.

Also:

Isn't that exactly what you are doing in this thread?! You may not be saying it to the person directly at hand but you're still declaring that if your Fi using compatriots were as good friends as you they would return all the favours you have done for them.

Those are my standards of friendship, exactly. I require that you make some effort to meet them if you want to be my friend. If you don't want to be my friend, peace and love just the same and that's fine, too, but life is short and I'd rather not try to reform you; I'd rather move on. Being my friend means that if I am in the hospital you think of me and you ask me what I might want. Like, my mother was in the hospital and I sent flowers and I called her once to ask her if she wanted me to call her every day or twice a day or whether she felt more that she needed to rest, and she said she needed to rest and not to call. You have conversations, you see, and you learn what each other needs and wants.

But it is definitely easier if you can be with people who recognize basic etiquette and that's really, I think, what Lightyear's talking about. Friends remember your birthday, call and/or visit when you're sick, listen to your love life concerns, reciprocate your invitations, yeah, I could go on and on about what I think a friendship should be. I have a need to make things as close to ideal as possible and I surely have a right to seek my own happiness. If you (the general "you") is not able to make me happy, it's best for the both of us that I move on.

I'm saying, it astounded me when I realized that other people do not have the same expectations that I take for granted, and I learned to be a little more flexible. But for me, I know my few friends' favorite colors, flowers, food, how they drink their coffee, Pepsi or Coke and how much ice, what their favorite food is, I make a concerted effort to know everything I can about what makes them happy, and then to the extent I am able, I try to promote their happiness. I pay very close attention to their feeling states. And sometimes I flake out and forget birthdays, it happened just last month, but when I caught it, I called my friend and apologized for forgetting his birthday and sent him a gift.

You might not want to work that hard, and that's fine. But "love me while I ignore you even while you're sick" does not constitute a friend, TO ME. And yeah, I have a purpose on the face of the earth and a right to my needs. Maybe you would find it hard to be friends with me in real life (although I tend to think not, actually, remembering how supportive you can be), but I have a right to want what I want and try to get it. I think we all should. "No expectations" has zero appeal to me. Expectations are negotiable but I'm not going to say I don't have them when I do.

I'm sorry to go on so long but it has to do with communicating, that's all. I had a friend who constantly bought me gifts. In return (I thought), I cooked for him. He would also sometimes ask me to cook for his friends and family, and I would oblige. This was a huge deal to me because I am a very good cook but I freakin' hate it. If I cook for you, I seriously love you, that is a big gift . He thought I enjoyed it. One day he blew up at me because he said he had given me all these gifts and I never reciprocated and I could not have been more stunned. I brought up all the dinners I'd cooked. He was stunned in return.

You have to talk, and to talk, you have to be in touch, and to be in touch, you have to exchange at least phone calls.

I know other people think differently and that's fine, I'm just saying, it's also a valid notion to think that love means doing something, rather than just sitting around thinking to yourself that you love me or you are my friend and in fact doing nothing that promotes my happiness, whether that means dropping by often or whether that means make sure you call before you come; whether that means don't call me on the phone because I hate the phone, or call me at least once a week. But at the very least IMO you have to pay attention.
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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Those are my standards of friendship, exactly. I require that you make some effort to meet them if you want to be my friend. If you don't want to be my friend, peace and love just the same and that's fine, too, but life is short and I'd rather not try to reform you; I'd rather move on. Being my friend means that if I am in the hospital you think of me and you ask me what I might want. Like, my mother was in the hospital and I sent flowers and I called her once to ask her if she wanted me to call her every day or twice a day or whether she felt more that she needed to rest, and she said she needed to rest and not to call. You have conversations, you see, and you learn what each other needs and wants.

But it is definitely easier if you can be with people who recognize basic etiquette and that's really, I think, what Lightyear's talking about. Friends remember your birthday, call and/or visit when you're sick, listen to your love life concerns, reciprocate your invitations, yeah, I could go on and on about what I think a friendship should be. I have a need to make things as close to ideal as possible and I surely have a right to seek my own happiness. If you (the general "you") is not able to make me happy, it's best for the both of us that I move on.

I'm saying, it astounded me when I realized that other people do not have the same expectations that I take for granted, and I learned to be a little more flexible. But for me, I know my few friends' favorite colors, flowers, food, how they drink their coffee, Pepsi or Coke and how much ice, what their favorite food is, I make a concerted effort to know everything I can about what makes them happy, and then to the extent I am able, I try to promote their happiness. I pay very close attention to their feeling states. And sometimes I flake out and forget birthdays, it happened just last month, but when I caught it, I called my friend and apologized for forgetting his birthday and sent him a gift.

You might not want to work that hard, and that's fine. But "love me while I ignore you even while you're sick" does not constitute a friend, TO ME. And yeah, I have a purpose on the face of the earth and a right to my needs. Maybe you would find it hard to be friends with me in real life (although I tend to think not, actually, remembering how supportive you can be), but I have a right to want what I want and try to get it. I think we all should. "No expectations" has zero appeal to me. Expectations are negotiable but I'm not going to say I don't have them when I do.

I'm sorry to go on so long but it has to do with communicating, that's all. I had a friend who constantly bought me gifts. In return (I thought), I cooked for him. He would also sometimes ask me to cook for his friends and family, and I would oblige. This was a huge deal to me because I am a very good cook but I freakin' hate it. If I cook for you, I seriously love you, that is a big gift . He thought I enjoyed it. One day he blew up at me because he said he had given me all these gifts and I never reciprocated and I could not have been more stunned. I brought up all the dinners I'd cooked. He was stunned in return.

You have to talk, and to talk, you have to be in touch, and to be in touch, you have to exchange at least phone calls.

I know other people think differently and that's fine, I'm just saying, it's also a valid notion to think that love means doing something, rather than just sitting around thinking to yourself that you love me or you are my friend and in fact doing nothing that promotes my happiness, whether that means dropping by often or whether that means make sure you call before you come; whether that means don't call me on the phone because I hate the phone, or call me at least once a week. But at the very least IMO you have to pay attention.



*slow clap becoming thunderous applause*


:wubbie:
 

Tiltyred

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blush blush blush thanks for that
 

PeaceBaby

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^ LOL, I sent hugs above to you specifically, thinking you were responding with "blushes of embarrassment" instead of "blushes of adulation" and had understood the message in my post, hilarious.

But I'm gracious enough to leave them, even though you have shrugged me off. ;)
 
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