[INFP] INFP 4's and 9's

[Udog]

That's been the opposite of what I've read. Type 9s don't know their own desires and needs. They have to dig to discover that. It's not a choice to chose harmony over self, it simply is.

Do you remember where you read that? The only thing I really found in the link you provided earlier (9 - Enneagram Type Nine: The Peacemaker) was this:

"We have sometimes called the Nine the crown of the Enneagram because it is at the top of the symbol and because it seems to include the whole of it. Nines can have the strength of Eights, the sense of fun and adventure of Sevens, the dutifulness of Sixes, the intellectualism of Fives, the creativity of Fours, the attractiveness of Threes, the generosity of Twos, and the idealism of Ones. However, what they generally do not have is a sense of really inhabiting themselves—a strong sense of their own identity. "​

How can an INFP not have a sense of identity? The next paragraph answers that question for us:

"Ironically, therefore, the only type the Nine is not like is the Nine itself. Being a separate self, an individual who must assert herself against others, is terrifying to Nines. They would rather melt into someone else or quietly follow their idyllic daydreams."​

My strong empathy into the state of others makes it very easy for me to get distracted. Sort of like watching TV when you know the lawn needs to be mowed.

I know when I am suppressing, when I don't like something.

Yup, me too. What I often don't know is how deep the suppressed emotion goes. That's where the numbing comes in. I know I'm angry, perhaps very angry, but I look away because if I face that anger head on, I stand a chance of losing my temper and doing something I regret.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Yup, me too. What I often don't know is how deep the suppressed emotion goes. That's where the numbing comes in. I know I'm angry, perhaps very angry, but I look away because if I face that anger head on, I stand a chance of losing my temper and doing something I regret.

It's a reason why I meditate actually, and a good reason why I need to exercise more than I do.

Perhaps type 9 expresses somewhat differently from an emotional perspective in other MBTI types not already so FiNe-tuned !

 

[Udog]

Perhaps type 9 expresses somewhat differently from an emotional perspective in other MBTI types not already so FiNe-tuned !

How E9 reflects in different types is very interesting to me. It's essentially the same behavior, but often created by completely different mental processes.

 

[Thursday]

How E9 reflects in different types is very interesting to me. It's essentially the same behavior, but often created by completely different mental processes.

its like studying stones
I think E9 is Te to emotions
and E4 is Fi to emotions

 

[MacGuffin]

Do you remember where you read that? The only thing I really found in the link you provided earlier (9 - Enneagram Type Nine: The Peacemaker) was this:

"We have sometimes called the Nine the crown of the Enneagram because it is at the top of the symbol and because it seems to include the whole of it. Nines can have the strength of Eights, the sense of fun and adventure of Sevens, the dutifulness of Sixes, the intellectualism of Fives, the creativity of Fours, the attractiveness of Threes, the generosity of Twos, and the idealism of Ones. However, what they generally do not have is a sense of really inhabiting themselves—a strong sense of their own identity. "​

How can an INFP not have a sense of identity? The next paragraph answers that question for us:

"Ironically, therefore, the only type the Nine is not like is the Nine itself. Being a separate self, an individual who must assert herself against others, is terrifying to Nines. They would rather melt into someone else or quietly follow their idyllic daydreams."​

My strong empathy into the state of others makes it very easy for me to get distracted. Sort of like watching TV when you know the lawn needs to be mowed.

That's because it's an application of Fe, rather than Fi. What kind of INFP doesn't use their lead function?

 

[PeaceBaby]

That's because it's an application of Fe, rather than Fi. What kind of INFP doesn't use their lead function?

When I do cognitive process testing, my Fi is strongest, but Fe scores high too. (Actually I score as ENFP on those tests, but I digress).

I think of it as an Fi - Fe battle sometimes. For example, Fi says "You're being taken advantage of" but Fe says "Those people need your help". Fi says "But those people made their own problem and you are tired, you need to rest" and Fe responds "But you don't want them to think you don't care about their situation, and you are a nice person who helps others".

Fi is always more "natural"; but my Fe is very developed, and a continual source of direction towards helping others vs focussing more on myself. Discrimination in situations like the above is necessary, and in my twenties, I pretty much squished the Fi down most of the time. Now, in my glorious early 40's, I am listening WAY more to my Fi, and since my kids are young adults now, I am beginning to stretch out and really think about myself.

 

[Udog]

That's because it's an application of Fe, rather than Fi.

Disagree. The behaviors may appear Fe oriented, but the cognitive process I use to get there is very much Fi oriented. I've always scored very low Fe on cognitive tests, and have yet to find a description of it I strongly relate to.

What kind of INFP doesn't use their lead function?

I assure you I use my lead function. Fi is versatile enough to not only be good for artistry and emotional drama bombs. What are the contradictions you are having trouble reconciling?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Disagree. The behaviors may appear Fe oriented, but the cognitive process I use to get there is very much Fi oriented. I've always scored very low Fe on cognitive tests, and have yet to find a description of it I strongly relate to.

Interesting. Fe scores as my 4th highest (Ne / Fi / Te / Fe). Of course, that's through some test I can't recall that says I am ENFP, so take it with a grain of salt. Plus, as a woman, we are kind of conditioned from a young age to BE Fe I think. And I think my higher Te is from being raised in a very SJ family and I have an SJ spouse.

Description of Fe: Extraverted Thinking: Connecting; considering others and the group—organizing to meet their needs and honor their values and feelings; maintaining societal, organizational, or group values; adjusting to and accommodating others; deciding if something is appropriate or acceptable to others. Considering what would be appropriate for the situation: “One should or shouldn’t wear…” or “People will think…”​

Sure, I see myself in there. What do you think of that description Udog?

I assure you I use my lead function. Fi is versatile enough to not only be good for artistry and emotional drama bombs

Agreed.

Macguffin, what Enneagram type are you, for curiousity's sake?

 

[Udog]

Interesting. Fe scores as my 4th highest (Ne / Fi / Te / Fe).

No wonder the test pegged you for ENFP - you share 3 of the first 4 functions with em!

Description of Fe: Extraverted Thinking: Connecting; considering others and the group—organizing to meet their needs and honor their values and feelings; maintaining societal, organizational, or group values; adjusting to and accommodating others; deciding if something is appropriate or acceptable to others. Considering what would be appropriate for the situation: “One should or shouldn’t wear…” or “People will think…”​

Sure, I see myself in there. What do you think of that description Udog?

I definitely relate to much of that. I don't really have a strong desire to connect with a group though, unless there is a need to connect. Then it becomes very important to me to try to make the connection genuine. Also, some of the social appropriateness aspects can also be attributed by an Fi/Si tagteam. i.e. "What clothes are appropriate to wear to an event like this?"

How accurate do you feel this Fe description is compared to others?

Okay - I guess I should go off and do a cognitive test. It's been awhile.

 

[MacGuffin]

Macguffin, what Enneagram type are you, for curiousity's sake?

9w1.

Or 5w4, not sure yet.

 

[Thalassa]

9's definitely repress their emotions instead of not feeling them. I have read before that disintegrating 9's can become Passive-Aggressive after long periods because of bottling up emotions;
however, Schizoid is usually mentioned as a potential Personality shift in 9's.

In a 4, Avoidant/Schizotypal has been pointed out in books as a path in their personality. So, they may not be 'assertive'. Discerning the assertivity(making up this word) of a 4 best be judged by their instinctual variant (SX, SO, SP) and whether connected more to Enneagram type 3 or 5.
Both a 4 and a 9 are within the Withdrawn Triad.
4's do usually have their own subtle ways of expressing their moods though (which may or may not be assertive).

I'm a 4w3 and fairly assertive. My variant is SP, SX, SO.

"INFPs who are relying on their Intuition this way (Defensively) usually take one of two directions. Either they become permanent seekers - good at many things but disinclined to stick with any for long - or they become somewhat passive, unable to articulate what they want but dissatisfied with what they're doing." - Personality Type: An Owner's Manual by Leonore Thomson
First, I apologize in not giving the full quote.
But anyhoo, let us assess, students. The latter in the quote relates to 9 behavior I would assume. While the former, I find difficult to interpret - because it seems more 5 behavior.
As Extraverted Intuition is likely how INFP's relate to the world, know that to use it defensively, as such, the INFP would have to be in the grip. Probably to be driven in such by their inferior function, Inferior Thinking (I think). So, mayhaps, we should clearly define what the four different INFP functions are first; then try and interpret how each function might turn out differently (or be used more often) for a 4 and a 9 on the Enneagram.

The reason why we must define the four functions of this INFP personality is because:
A) People are more often to misidentify as E-type 4 then 9. Think of the name 4 is usually given, 'Artist'. Both, and all, can be creative; but as the name implies and can be mistaken. (INFP may be 9 as much as 4.)
B) If we can define each function for people to look at, then identify what they use or have developed. Their experience may be easier to share. (Introverts do not necessarily show themselves at face value as an Extrovert; so they may not identify with the Primary Function.)

I'm pretty sure I'm a 4w3 because I ALWAYS type as 4, except once or twice I got 6. I even seriously considered 6, because I was so paranoid about "mistyping" as 4. But after going through all that, I'm pretty sure I'm a 4. I'm definitely not a 9, but I once had someone tell me that "marmalade.sunrise" had a 9 vibe to it. Okay.

INFPs do seem to be one of the most confused types though. ^^; (Don't kill me)

I won't kill you, but I don't get that at all.

 

[PeaceBaby]

9w1.

Or 5w4, not sure yet.

Yes, the plot thickens. And your MBTI? (sorry I could probably search to find it, but perhaps you can post it ...)

 

[Prototype]

My tendencies; 1, 4, 5... Unsure of the wings, but I can definitely relate to these descriptions.

Type One: The Reformer
The Rational, Idealistic Type: Principled, Purposeful, Self-Controlled, and Perfectionistic

Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.

Type Four: The Individualist
The Sensitive, Introspective Type: Expressive, Dramatic, Self-Absorbed, and Temperamental

Fours are self-aware, sensitive, and reserved. They are emotionally honest, creative, and personal, but can also be moody and self-conscious. Withholding themselves from others due to feeling vulnerable and defective, they can also feel disdainful and exempt from ordinary ways of living. They typically have problems with melancholy, self-indulgence, and self-pity. At their Best: inspired and highly creative, they are able to renew themselves and transform their experiences.

Type Five: The Investigator
The Intense, Cerebral Type: Perceptive, Innovative, Secretive, and Isolated

Fives are alert, insightful, and curious. They are able to concentrate and focus on developing complex ideas and skills. Independent, innovative, and inventive, they can also become preoccupied with their thoughts and imaginary constructs. They become detached, yet high-strung and intense. They typically have problems with eccentricity, nihilism, and isolation. At their Best: visionary pioneers, often ahead of their time, and able to see the world in an entirely new way.

My Fi tends to shift to Ti at times, as well as my P and J,(When my creativity slows down)... So that might be why I got what looks to me as two odd variants for and INFP...?

 

[MacGuffin]

Yes, the plot thickens. And your MBTI? (sorry I could probably search to find it, but perhaps you can post it ...)

xkcd!












...or INTP.

 

[the state i am in]

How E9 reflects in different types is very interesting to me. It's essentially the same behavior, but often created by completely different mental processes.

definitely. infp isfp obvious correlations with 9. i think infps are more often 9w1 and the isfps i know are often 9w8s.

what i don't have a fucking clue on is how an infj can be an e9. i know of no real-life examples, and can't really comprehend what it would look like behaviorally.

Disagree. The behaviors may appear Fe oriented, but the cognitive process I use to get there is very much Fi oriented. I've always scored very low Fe on cognitive tests, and have yet to find a description of it I strongly relate to.

definitely, i agree 100% with this. nf types are empathetic in different ways. Fe works outwards-inwards, Fi works inwards-outwards. Fe calculations are on the outward environment, Fi weighing is internal events, Fe doesn't store internally like Fi, it just improves its literacy and its shortcuts to understand things, its theoretical framework, its social instincts, its language, its semiology. it doesn't keep EVERYTHING like Fi does, nor does it organize its inner world based on an attempt at inherent F coherency. the tension for nf Fe users is when Ni and Fe don't align at all, whereas Fi users have to get their Fi right and use Ne to make good and positive connections to the world, attachments, that will bring them out and lift them up and allow them to find new pieces of the inner puzzle/struggle/story.

9w1.

Or 5w4, not sure yet.

you seem more 5w4 to me. a little too biting for a 9w1, their profuse apologies when they are doing nothing wrong, etc. they each can seriously withdraw. 5w4s on the whole tho are much more miserly, do not give freely, temper expectations to maintain inner freedom as much as possible. 9s give and give until they're overdrawn much more often. 9s would be more passive aggressive and anger issues, 5w4s would be more just go cold, hardened exterior, etc. 4w5s are more capable of expressing emotions across the gamut, assert themselves more on the strength of their feelings than their sense of epistemological mastery (like a 5 would). we want to be certain our shit is worked out and impenetrable before we are ready to say go.


udog, i'm also wondering if you know of any infp 4w3s? i do know some entps that are this type, proust i think was an infp 4w3 according to guesses, but i don't have a good sense of this.

 

[The Outsider]

The last test I took told me I was 5w4.

 

[PeaceBaby]

INTP.

I'll be back for you later

definitely. infp isfp obvious correlations with 9. i think infps are more often 9w1 ...

More INFP 9 wings than 4 wings? No I don't think so; at least not in my experience. I seldom meet INFP's in the first place, never mind INFP 9 wings.

 

[runvardh]

The last test I took told me I was 5w4.

I tested 5w6 once. That was entertaining.

 

[hommefatal]

Basically 9's avoid unpleasant things, and 4's experience them.

 

[the state i am in]

More INFP 9 wings than 4 wings? No I don't think so; at least not in my experience. I seldom meet INFP's in the first place, never mind INFP 9 wings.

the quotation said that my experience with ixfps was that 9w1 was more frequently correlated with infp and 9w8 was more frequently correlated with isfp.

altho it is also true that i do know far more 9w1 infps in real life than 4w5s. i know 6 infp 9w1s and 2 infp 4w5s (very possibly a third).