[INFP] INFP 4's and 9's

[phthalocyanine]

True; but in balance, this tendency is not detrimental. That said, I have found this a challenge area for me. But swing this over to the other extreme, where one is not taking the feelings and needs of others into account, I think one is committing a deeper sin to the world. Sure, YOU are satisfied, but at what cost to those around you?

i didn't say it was generally a detriment, or even that it applied to all 9's.
if you go back and read the posts where the quotes came from you'll see that my post you were responding to was in a more personal, rather than general context.

however, in response: if a person chooses the personally easiest route in a given situation, whether it is self-conscious or other-conscious in nature, it is ultimately self-serving.
i suppose if the line of thinking is 'the end is more important than the means', then the other-conscious form of self-serving is probably better because other folks get something out of the deal too..but that doesn't negate the self-serving aspect of it.

'balance' to me means striving for equal parts self-serving and other-serving, though. of course one extreme or the other ultimately ends in suffering..

believe it or not, even as a 4 , i have struggled with self-serving for a long time (i am a 'social' variant 4), and i have come to that conclusion. it may not always feel right to choose to be self-serving, but i find that when i do so when it is called for i feel much healthier.

True friends are rare indeed, and there are very, very few people indeed who I even allow to scan my inner self. If I sense you are trying to take a read on me, I'll block such probings. One might find that rather ironic for someone who desires deeper friendships, but I need to protect myself against those who seek to exploit rather than understand. Because sadly, those people exist.

the reasoning makes sense, but it certainly doesn't make things any easier on those of us who aren't out to exploit anyone..or back away from them.

say what you will about 4s, but one problem this type doesn't seem to have is confronting the dark side of things. our introspective self-absorption can become an asset (provided the 4 is healthy/mature ) when it comes to understanding the ways we people can work against ourselves, psychologically and otherwise.. i've gotten some earnest perspective from a 4

 

[Udog]

I pretty much agree with Peacebaby. (I should have mentioned that I'm 9w1.)

I feel that way about type 4. The self-absorption in the description seems so selfish, so "all about me, poor little me". I'd rather not be the rain-cloud of the world (even though we all need a little rain sometimes).

Yeah, I admit I've sometimes felt the same way. I mean, we all have our moments, but the 4 seems prone to embrace and even enjoy their sad emotions in a way I can't relate to.

say what you will about 4s, but one problem this type doesn't seem to have is confronting the dark side of things. our introspective self-absorption can become an asset (provided the 4 is healthy/mature ) when it comes to understanding the ways we people can work against ourselves, psychologically and otherwise..

Very true. And honestly I believe that the exceptional artistic talent and strength of many of the 4s comes from this ability to delve into the dark side of nature.

 

[PeaceBaby]

i didn't say it was generally a detriment, or even that it applied to all 9's.
if you go back and read the posts where the quotes came from you'll see that my post you were responding to was in a more personal, rather than general context.

say what you will about 4s, but one problem this type doesn't seem to have is confronting the dark side of things. our introspective self-absorption can become an asset (provided the 4 is healthy/mature ) when it comes to understanding the ways we people can work against ourselves, psychologically and otherwise.. i've gotten some earnest perspective from a 4

Balanced type 4's are great - admittedly, I did answer in a more provocative fashion than usual to generate a response. But I didn't take your assessment personally, so no worries there!

Sometimes I reflect on why we are all constructed the way we are; I think we all have a particular mission to fulfill and thus what is "right action" for one does not necessarily work for another.

So what I am supposed to focus on is just not necessarily what another is here to learn. And I make no judgement on that.

 

[phthalocyanine]

Balanced type 4's are great - admittedly, I did answer in a more provocative fashion than usual to generate a response. But I didn't take your assessment personally, so no worries there!

actually that was my only worry! i may be a strange critter, but at heart all i want to do is understand and get along with people..what a sap, huh? don't tell anybody.

ha. you don't have to provoke an answer out of me, though, you know, can't you tell i'm prone to yammer on without any at all?

 

[PeaceBaby]

actually that was my only worry! i may be a strange critter, but at heart all i want to do is understand and get along with people..what a sap, huh? don't tell anybody.

ha. you don't have to provoke an answer out of me, though, you know, can't you tell i'm prone to yammer on without any at all?

You are so adorable ... I just want to send you tons of !

I like your "yammerin'"; you have a great deal of insight to share and I enjoyed your posts immensely.

 

[phthalocyanine]

I mean, we all have our moments, but the 4 seems prone to embrace and even enjoy their sad emotions in a way I can't relate to.

it's true. i feel like life is half empty or something if i only experience the good stuff. misery illuminates joy to me, and the heights of either evoke the other for me..

And honestly I believe that the exceptional artistic talent and strength of many of the 4s comes from this ability to delve into the dark side of nature.

i almost feel like i was designed to make art. (not implying anything about intelligent design, lolz). i was pretty unimpressed in my youth with the traits nature had given me, even tried to deny em a bit, but now i feel much like PeaceBaby does - that we are all given our own set of tools and forge our own paths. it's pretty groovy.

 

[phthalocyanine]

You are so adorable ... I just want to send you tons of !

I like your "yammerin'"; you have a great deal of insight to share and I enjoyed your posts immensely.

aside from your avatar always making me hungry, i think you're pretty sweet yourself.

(crap, don't let the NTs see this thread, it's only on page 5 and already it is becoming "another NF love fest"!)

 

[PeaceBaby]

Why thank you! - but let the NT's in, we can beat them off no sweat!

It's likely time to change my avvy to something sex-eh ... it gives me ice cream cravings far too frequently!

 

[Udog]

it's true. i feel like life is half empty or something if i only experience the good stuff. misery illuminates joy to me, and the heights of either evoke the other for me..

Very well said. I often feel like I have to give myself 'permission' to feel any emotion too intensely. Like, I'm not allowed to wallow in my own self pity unless I've already defined objectives for doing so. Or I have to hold myself back in relationships because of fear of the basic irrationality of my emotions. That control is a handy ability, but I've missed out on some great joys because of it.

 

[ragashree]

^ ragashree, whats your MBTI type? INFP's integration point is 1.

infp I suppose, though reading the *albeit very interesting* perspectives from the infps posting in this thread is enough to make me start doubting that - were I prone to such doubt to start with!

Could you elaborate at all on what you mean by "integration point" though? I'm a bit unclear on the significance at present.

Yes we are, and as an INFP, very much so. That's the lovely oxymoron of it all; we know what we need and want, but we also want group harmony, therefore tend to repress our own desires in favor of the group. I do tend to squish my feelings down, but have learned that doing it for too long carries a hefty price tag.

Whenever I've read the type Nine descriptions, it just grates on me and I feel a total repugnance towards it, a need to fiercely reject it.

I feel that way about type 4. The self-absorption in the description seems so selfish, so "all about me, poor little me". I'd rather not be the rain-cloud of the world (even though we all need a little rain sometimes). LOL, song ref there!

Udog's ratio of type 4 / type 9 sounds about right to me. I don't meet "me" very often ...

This is where I find this discussion so fascinating: I can appreciate both points of view here with respect to the mutual criticisms without feeling at all comfortable about identifying with either type. Type 9 can seem too wishy-washy, vague, and uncertain; type 4 often appears excessively navel-gazing, wallowing in emotion, and self analytical to the point of driving me round the twist.

I can appreciate the good points of each and the contributions they have to make but wouldn't really want to be either. One seems overly concerned with fitting in and suppressing their individuality, the other with asserting it and standing out from the crowd. I just feel like I've got more important purposes to put my energy to than either

I'm wondering if the fact that I have an apparently untypical infp enneagram type (or at least the perspective that goes with it) could be part of the reason why, although I often appreciate the perspectives of the various infps posting on this site, I don't really feel my kinship with any of them to be very close. Usually I find that I have more in common with T and J types even though in function terms I supposedly have a strong F preference and am a definite P. Hmm...

*Please don't mind me though - this is all very interesting!*

 

[CrystalViolet]

This is where I find this discussion so fascinating: I can appreciate both points of view here with respect to the mutual criticisms without feeling at all comfortable about identifying with either type. Type 9 can seem too wishy-washy, vague, and uncertain; type 4 often appears excessively navel-gazing, wallowing in emotion, and self analytical to the point of driving me round the twist.

I can appreciate the good points of each and the contributions they have to make but wouldn't really want to be either. One seems overly concerned with fitting in and suppressing their individuality, the other with asserting it and standing out from the crowd. I just feel like I've got more important purposes to put my energy to than either

I'm wondering if the fact that I have an apparently untypical infp enneagram type (or at least the perspective that goes with it) could be part of the reason why, although I often appreciate the perspectives of the various infps posting on this site, I don't really feel my kinship with any of them to be very close. Usually I find that I have more in common with T and J types even though in function terms I supposedly have a strong F preference and am a definite P. Hmm...

*Please don't mind me though - this is all very interesting!*

I have similar thoughts too. Heart and I share the same ennegramm type, and I find I relate to her the most. Not that I don't relate to others, I just often find she has basically said what I was thinking, and much more eloquently.

 

[PeaceBaby]

infp I suppose, though reading the *albeit very interesting* perspectives from the infps posting in this thread is enough to make me start doubting that - were I prone to such doubt to start with!

Have you ever done an enneagram test? You say you are type 1 in this thread - do you know what wing and what variants?

Type One in Brief (from enneagraminstitute.com)
Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.

Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective
Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced

Enneagram One with a Nine-Wing: "The Idealist"
Enneagram One with a Two-Wing: "The Advocate"

Key Motivations: Want to be right, to strive higher and improve everything, to be consistent with their ideals, to justify themselves, to be beyond criticism so as not to be condemned by anyone.

The Meaning of the Arrows (in brief)
When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), methodical Ones suddenly become moody and irrational at Four. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), angry, critical Ones become more spontaneous and joyful, like healthy Sevens.​

Part of "being" INFP is to resist being pigeon-holed anyway though so it's not unusual to resist MBTI type / enneagram descriptions as being too limited in perspective.

 

[ragashree]

Have you ever done an enneagram test? You say you are type 1 in this thread - do you know what wing and what variants?

Type One in Brief (from enneagraminstitute.com)
Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.

Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective
Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced

Enneagram One with a Nine-Wing: "The Idealist"
Enneagram One with a Two-Wing: "The Advocate"

Key Motivations: Want to be right, to strive higher and improve everything, to be consistent with their ideals, to justify themselves, to be beyond criticism so as not to be condemned by anyone.

The Meaning of the Arrows (in brief)
When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), methodical Ones suddenly become moody and irrational at Four. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), angry, critical Ones become more spontaneous and joyful, like healthy Sevens.​

Part of "being" INFP is to resist being pigeon-holed anyway though so it's not unusual to resist MBTI type / enneagram descriptions as being too limited in perspective.

1 W9 according to the last test I did The general personality type certainly fits me better than the others, though I don't necessarily think or behave in a typical "one" way. I'm certainly more laid back and less concerned with immediate action than most people with this type are theorised to be; and I don't give a damm for superegoistic motivations these days, which I think I largely shed quite some time ago *though they definitely affected me to some extent when I was younger; I think the internal conflicts from a bad upbringing were quite a paralysing influence at times*.

The tendency to want to "reform" things is probably quite pronounced though. I might come across as more like a 4 because of my interest in the arts, but the idea of "art for art's sake" or for the sake of self-expression only is a very foreign one to me. If anything, my productivity is hampered by my desire to want to work in an underlying moral framework in a way that will make people actually sit up, take notice, and reconsider the way they do and think about things, without coming across as lecturing (something I heartily dislike when I get it from others, so I don't expect anyone else to want to take it from me ).

I tend to spend more time thinking about the underlying concepts and how to fit everything together in a way that will actually achieve my ultimate objective than actually working on my many projects for this reason. If I was fully sure of how to achieve my admittedly rather grandiose ambitions I suspect I would be much happier working; I really can't stand to put something out when I know it would be less than I originally envisaged it, however, and I know I need a lot of time to think and plan to get things into the shape I want them. Writing merely about myself or whatever happens to pop into my head doesn't give me any kind of sense of fulfillment at all, even when done well; I'm demotivated to keep going for very long, or even to start at all generally.

In debates and discussions, I may, and usually do, have a strong personal opinion, but nevertheless typically end up making criticisms from a strictly objective perspective; people are often frustrated by the fact that I am apparently attacking them while saying absolutely nothing about where I stand myself! I've always tended to be pretty outspoken when I encounter something contrary to my beliefs, and on a few occasions *which in hindsight I mostly regret* have pulled people apart over fairly minor failings, especially when they were in a position of authority and weren't fulfilling their responsibilities in the way I thought they should be (hint, be prepared for a backlash!).

I'm not generally inclined to criticise people's failings at a personal level unless they give me a good reason (I prefer a non-stressful environment on the whole and usually just prefer not to associate too much with people I'm not comfortable with). If I am provoked enough, however, I can certainly end up on occasion going into "lecture" mode or arguing my case very strongly - I pretty much always am the one to keep self-control in these circumstances as I like to stay within the bounds of propriety whether the other person is or not. I can indeed get angry sometimes, but it's typically directed at innanimate objects rather than people, which seem to be more appropriate recipients

This sound like a type 1 to you?

 

[MacGuffin]

Yes we are, and as an INFP, very much so. That's the lovely oxymoron of it all; we know what we need and want, but we also want group harmony, therefore tend to repress our own desires in favor of the group. I do tend to squish my feelings down, but have learned that doing it for too long carries a hefty price tag.

That's been the opposite of what I've read. Type 9s don't know their own desires and needs. They have to dig to discover that. It's not a choice to chose harmony over self, it simply is.

 

[Scott N Denver]

FWIW, I believe that I am a 4w5 INFP, though reading the 9 descriptions I can't simply chuck those out. I don't reject my emotions, and am quite comfortable in their direct experience, including negative ones. Not to say that negative ones are fun or anything, but they are my honest expression at that point in time and I don't need to shirk away or try to disown them.

Also, I don't find enneagram that helpful or informative. It's WAY too "boxy" for my tastes. MBTI tells me HOW someone thinks, in terms of dominant and secondary functions, though I still don't know WHAT someone things. To me, enneagram seems more apt to characterizing people in terms of their hang-ups.

 

[ragashree]

Also, I don't find enneagram that helpful or informative. It's WAY too "boxy" for my tastes. MBTI tells me HOW someone thinks, in terms of dominant and secondary functions, though I still don't know WHAT someone things. To me, enneagram seems more apt to characterizing people in terms of their hang-ups.

Indeed, and I consider the identification of said hang-ups to be of very dubious accuracy in my case too. I do find the apparent correlation between mbti types and typical enneagram types quite interesting though - it implies that enneagram may be measuring something of relevance to the mbti system, and perhaps it may be interesting to find out what that is...

 

[Polaris]

My mother is a type Nine INFP, so she's a good point of comparison now that I think of it. As far as our demeanors, there are a lot of similarities. Both of us are reserved and easygoing, and we each have our quiet convictions. So on the surface we seem a great deal alike--I've even had a few people compare us. But there are a couple of points where we starkly differ (ignoring those that have to do with my being less FP than her). One of them is that she's somewhat chameleon-like--depending on whom she's talking to, her speech patterns change to match them. In my case, I make a conscious effort to avoid picking up people's traits since anything else would clash with my individualism. Another point where we differ is that she devotes herself to the values she was raised with and is surrounded by, whereas I've always been rebellious, prone to discard anything that's supposed to be true and proper. I also have a need to be unique and express myself and reach for the deeper and more stirring things that she doesn't feel: she's happy to be happy among those who are happy (which makes her far less contentious than me). So basically, this whole topic is an elaborate way of saying that INFP Nines are Nine-like where INFP Fours are Four-like.

 

[Ekeh Mayu]

9's definitely repress their emotions instead of not feeling them. I have read before that disintegrating 9's can become Passive-Aggressive after long periods because of bottling up emotions;
however, Schizoid is usually mentioned as a potential Personality shift in 9's.

In a 4, Avoidant/Schizotypal has been pointed out in books as a path in their personality. So, they may not be 'assertive'. Discerning the assertivity(making up this word) of a 4 best be judged by their instinctual variant (SX, SO, SP) and whether connected more to Enneagram type 3 or 5.
Both a 4 and a 9 are within the Withdrawn Triad.
4's do usually have their own subtle ways of expressing their moods though (which may or may not be assertive).

"INFPs who are relying on their Intuition this way (Defensively) usually take one of two directions. Either they become permanent seekers - good at many things but disinclined to stick with any for long - or they become somewhat passive, unable to articulate what they want but dissatisfied with what they're doing." - Personality Type: An Owner's Manual by Leonore Thomson
First, I apologize in not giving the full quote.
But anyhoo, let us assess, students. The latter in the quote relates to 9 behavior I would assume. While the former, I find difficult to interpret - because it seems more 5 behavior.
As Extraverted Intuition is likely how INFP's relate to the world, know that to use it defensively, as such, the INFP would have to be in the grip. Probably to be driven in such by their inferior function, Inferior Thinking (I think). So, mayhaps, we should clearly define what the four different INFP functions are first; then try and interpret how each function might turn out differently (or be used more often) for a 4 and a 9 on the Enneagram.

The reason why we must define the four functions of this INFP personality is because:
A) People are more often to misidentify as E-type 4 then 9. Think of the name 4 is usually given, 'Artist'. Both, and all, can be creative; but as the name implies and can be mistaken. (INFP may be 9 as much as 4.)
B) If we can define each function for people to look at, then identify what they use or have developed. Their experience may be easier to share. (Introverts do not necessarily show themselves at face value as an Extrovert; so they may not identify with the Primary Function.)

Or I have no idea what i'm talking about, only distracting myself. I run on loose theoretical clouds.

INFPs do seem to be one of the most confused types though. ^^; (Don't kill me)

 

[PeaceBaby]

That's been the opposite of what I've read. Type 9s don't know their own desires and needs. They have to dig to discover that. It's not a choice to chose harmony over self, it simply is.

I don't see it that way.

Here's a good quote (from enneagraminstitute.com):

"On the surface, Nines appear to be the most easy-going, pleasant people imaginable. They go along with others' wishes, apparently without any desire other than to make sure everyone is at ease and happy. But their hidden side is that they often suppress a huge well of anger that they conceal even from themselves. Nines want to get along with others, but they also want to hold on to their independence and autonomy—they do not want to be "messed with." To the extent that they feel they cannot do the latter without endangering their connections with the important people in their lives, they become resentful and enraged—although they also feel that they can never let this anger out without destroying their relationships. Thus, for Nines to develop themselves and their potentials they must come to grips with their suppressed rage and find constructive outlets for this energy."​

I know when I am suppressing, when I don't like something. I don't always know what to do to fix it, mind you, and fulfill both myself and others, but I am aware of my feelings, my needs and wants, even if I don't pay attention. I really don't think there's a complete disconnect as you describe, at least that's not how I have experienced it.

"Nines pay a price for their easygoing demeanor because much of it depends on their staying out of contact with their instinctual energies. Nines do this for two reasons. First, much of their instinctual aliveness is used to suppress their anger and frustration with people and with themselves. To experience their anger directly is extremely threatening to Nines: they feel that their rage could destroy their peaceful world very quickly. In order stay in their unrealistic, idealized world, they must constantly suppress their anger and instincts over and over again. But when Nines attempt to dam those energies, the result is inner numbness and general fatigue because so much of their inner resources is devoted to keeping their anger and instincts at bay."​

Here's a personal example: when my kids were in their early teens, my hubs was away every week on a job assignment, home only on the weekends, for a year and a half. I was supportive of the role and how it would help further my hubs career, and I kept the kids in all of their activities like usual so they wouldn't feel an acute change or sense of loss. I made the weekends light and fun so everyone could enjoy family time. But I did feel angry, angry that I had to hold it all together, angry that I was somehow at the bottom of the priority list, and I had placed myself there too. I was so exhausted by the end of that assignment it took me weeks to feel like myself, weeks to rid myself of the built-up feelings I had pushed down for such a duration (because they weren't gone, they had filled me like water in a glass). And I was angry at myself for even being angry, that I felt that way about the situation.

I think it is more about acknowledgement rather than unawareness, realizing that emotions have an impact whether or not we want to pay attention, feel them, or let them have the floor.

 

[wolfy]

^ Yeah, I'm 9w8 and I would agree with the above.