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[MBTI General] Could You Forgive A Partner For Cheating?

seeker22

New member
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
173
MBTI Type
XNTJ
As an ENFP, we can sometimes be *too* forgiving... How do you know when to forgive... and when to walk away? Example: The ISFJ partner who cheated on me one year ago wanted me back right away and still wants me back. I have told her no repeatedly. I don't feel like I can ever trust her again... Once someone breaks their loyalty to me TO THAT DEGREE... I struggle.
 
Last edited:

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I have thought a lot about that...

Cheating (from my observation) usually occurs out of some kind of insecurity within the cheater. It can manifest itself in many ways, whether it is needing to feel attractive, needing attention and drama, wanting to provoke jealousy, poor communication (usually from avoidance because they are assuming the other person would not value what they have to say), exacting retribution for what is not working in the relationship, keeping from being vulnerable by hurting the other person first and so on.

Deep seated underconfidence and insecurity is not only is inextricably intertwined with communication and character, but without two secure and confident people in the relationship, it will usually end in disaster. You can work on those "relationship problems" as a couple, but really they are work that one or both people need to do alone. Until they are okay without someone, they will never be able to give much to someone. With insecurity also comes profound selfishness. Lying/cheating on someone is only a symptom of a deeper problem that you cannot "work out" together. Run the other way!

When a healthy secure person gets together with an insecure person, things become dysfunctional. The healthy person takes on the responsibility for making the relationship work while the insecure person wields the power of decision making, but acts like a child with a parent when responsibility is called for. To be able to tolerate it, the healthy person's frustration is taken out on their stronger relationships because those ones can handle it better. This also happens because the insecure person is threatened by those strong relationships anyway (parents, family, long time close friends etc). The healthy person takes on a bigger load, while editing themselves down to be smaller so the other person isn't threatened. They have to begin looking at the world differently to do this and in doing so, become a twisted up version of themselves. If they have children, the children pay the most deference to and place the most value on the parent that is insecure and on what they value.

When two insecure people get together, there is a cycle of betrayal (violence, cheating, lying etc), breaking up, then running back to each other (or someone new) because neither person wants to be alone. They both accept bad behaviour which spirals worse and worse. Problems are never solved or laid to rest so each explosion has more dynamite on the pile left from previously unresolved messes. Communication is non-existent.

Either way, it seems to be lose-lose.
 

amelie

New member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
110
MBTI Type
XNFJ
Unless I had already made a long-term commitment to the person, I would definitely run the other way. There are too many healthy, loyal people that are potential mates to get involved with anyone who would treat you that way.

If you continue to feel pulled, you could get some therapy yourself to find out what there is about this relationship/person that makes you want to enter into something potentially so emotionally dangerous for you.
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
MBTI Type
YMCA
If you can justify to yourself that the reason you didn't want her has changed or can change then think about taking her back. If you believe it can't and are grabbing at straws because an opportunity is there and you have to ignore it, do what the two INFJs above said and get away from it. Otherwise it will be a case of fall into trap, wait long enough that you forget the pain and see it in a better light, refall into the trap, repeat cycle.
 

BerberElla

12 and a half weeks
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
2,725
MBTI Type
infp
My problem is I am way too understanding, or I seek to understand a deeper meaning behind someones actions.

For instance I have cared for the majority of my siblings at some stage or another when they came to live with me, each of them lies ALOT. Even when the truth would suit them better, they still have an elaborate lie in place.

This isn't because they are liars, if I look behind the lie I see fear, I look into their past and I know why they feel fear, so I understand and I explain to them over and over that with me, the lie is just not necessary. I'm not going to beat the crap out of them like my parents would have, I'm just going to handle it.

The enfp brother has taken this lesson the best, now even when the truth could piss me off, he will still give me the truth because he has seen how I react to the lies, I mean if the lesson starts to take too long then my reaction to the lies gets worse.

The esfp brother seemed unable to learn this lesson, the estp sister is still learning it, the esfj sister has been discarded because it's been well over a decade and she still couldn't learn that one vital lesson, don't lie to me.

If there is a genuine reason behind it, then I understand, if it's just that you are a liar, eventually I will let you go.

I have also forgiven my ex for cheating on me once, it's one of those grey areas that I have defined lines around, and forgiveness can happen even then as long as it falls within my lines, ie that he was extremely drunk (and high) at the time. It hurt like hell though.

However I wouldn't recommend you forgive if it's not true forgiveness. I know people who have said on the surface that they forgive their partner, but the trust is too far gone for it to work and they end up becoming paranoid jealous people who are watching their partners every action.

For me if I say I forgive you, I have. I never felt the need to question him if he went out with his friends after his confession, I never went through his phone or questioned who he was talking to.

It's all pretty personal lines we define for ourselves, if you know you can't forgive, don't try to. :)
 

seeker22

New member
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
173
MBTI Type
XNTJ
I have thought a lot about that...

Cheating (from my observation) usually occurs out of some kind of insecurity within the cheater. It can manifest itself in many ways, whether it is needing to feel attractive, needing attention and drama, wanting to provoke jealousy, poor communication (usually from avoidance because they are assuming the other person would not value what they have to say), exacting retribution for what is not working in the relationship, keeping from being vulnerable by hurting the other person first and so on.

Deep seated underconfidence and insecurity is not only is inextricably intertwined with communication and character, but without two secure and confident people in the relationship, it will usually end in disaster. You can work on those "relationship problems" as a couple, but really they are work that one or both people need to do alone. Until they are okay without someone, they will never be able to give much to someone. With insecurity also comes profound selfishness. Lying/cheating on someone is only a symptom of a deeper problem that you cannot "work out" together. Run the other way!

When a healthy secure person gets together with an insecure person, things become dysfunctional. The healthy person takes on the responsibility for making the relationship work while the insecure person wields the power of decision making, but acts like a child with a parent when responsibility is called for. To be able to tolerate it, the healthy person's frustration is taken out on their stronger relationships because those ones can handle it better. This also happens because the insecure person is threatened by those strong relationships anyway (parents, family, long time close friends etc). The healthy person takes on a bigger load, while editing themselves down to be smaller so the other person isn't threatened. They have to begin looking at the world differently to do this and in doing so, become a twisted up version of themselves. If they have children, the children pay the most deference to and place the most value on the parent that is insecure and on what they value.

When two insecure people get together, there is a cycle of betrayal (violence, cheating, lying etc), breaking up, then running back to each other (or someone new) because neither person wants to be alone. They both accept bad behaviour which spirals worse and worse. Problems are never solved or laid to rest so each explosion has more dynamite on the pile left from previously unresolved messes. Communication is non-existent.

Either way, it seems to be lose-lose.

+10 !!!!!
 

seeker22

New member
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
173
MBTI Type
XNTJ
My problem is I am way too understanding, or I seek to understand a deeper meaning behind someones actions.

Yes - I do this all of the time. I try and *understand* the other person's motivations, intentions, context, etc.

Then I end up excusing it once I understand it yikes!

As for my ISFJ I asked her why she did it. She said because she was hurt by me and this person made her feel special. I almost threw up in my own mouth.

If I would have cheated on her every time I felt "hurt" by her - I would have been a whore!!! I don't believe that feeling hurt is an excuse to run out and start having sex with someone else. I believe in communicating with your partner and working through it together!

Keep in mind she is and has historically been emotionally immature. She said being with me for the five years (and yes we owned a home together and everything we were pretty much married) was the "best" she had ever behaved in a relationship. (In other words, this is her at her BEST - yikes)

She's also smokin' hot and amazing in bed - which is one big reason I was having a hard time walking away. I don't meet that many people I am sexually attracted to and with us it was like off the charts. She told me the cheating sex was crap and I was "way better no comparison" but who knows if she's just lying to get me back!

Sex aside, I like women with strong character and now I just can't trust her.
 

Ruthie

New member
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
436
MBTI Type
?
Nope. I don't think it's particularly hard to "not cheat." Just an act of selfishness, narcissism and disloyalty. All the potential excuses just seem so whiny.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,244
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
There's another thread on this topic that occurred within the last 2-3 months; if you use the Search function you might be able to find it.

There's a main issue too that, even if you can forgive someone and not hold it against them, it does not mean that you can ever trust them again.
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,067
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Forgive them? Yes. Continue to be in a relationship with them/trust them? No.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Most people are inclined to state this in absolute terms "Cheating is cheating is cheating," but I'm not so certain about this (though I've never been that close to someone, either).

I think it would depend on the circumstances. I would probably be somewhat more forgiving if it were someone they'd had a past relationship with (those feelings could probably linger dormant for a long time and resurface intensely), for instance, than if it were someone new or random.

It would also depend on why I felt they had done it. If it were for gratification, or to fill an unfulfilled need, then that would be the worst case. If I felt they had just lost themselves to the moment and their affection for the person, I'd be more forgiving of that as well. Note that I would probably simply trust my gut reaction to figure this out, rather than their words or any reasoning process, though.

Then again, perhaps I'm mistaken and some instinct in people kicks in during relationships that makes this seem absolutely wrong to them under all possible circumstances, regardless of whether they'd say so outside of the situation.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
7,038
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I could forgive, but I wouldn't forget. It would always be lingering in my mind... "Are they cheating on me right now?" etc. I would be unable to trust them... and if I can't trust someone then I can't be in a relationship. There would just be something off, something that wouldn't feel right, and the relationship would be totally ruined.
 
G

garbage

Guest
It's apparent that I'm greatly generalizing here, so bear with me.

I struggle to fully forgive people in cases like these, especially if they've shown a past history of this behavior. Although some individuals' struggles are greater than others, and though these issues may be the underlying cause of their behavior, it's possible to break the cycle of whatever issues are being faced, turning these issues into a possibility for self-improvement. It just takes work. Those who refuse to put in the appropriate effort to change cannot be forced to do otherwise.

And thus, I can understand, but I still find it difficult to forgive.. especially to the point of letting them back in.

It's unfortunate, since I can usually see the issue from their perspective. But I can't act for them. It's almost as if I'm watching a movie unfold from a first-person perspective, struggling because I can't influence how the character acts. I just cannot get the character to avoid the situation he's about to get himself into :doh:
 

Queen Kat

The Duchess of Oddity
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
3,053
MBTI Type
E.T.
Enneagram
7w8
I'd cheat as well. Then we're even.
 

Zoom

Self sustaining supernova
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
1,045
Enneagram
9w8
Most people are inclined to state this in absolute terms "Cheating is cheating is cheating," but I'm not so certain about this (though I've never been that close to someone, either).

I think it would depend on the circumstances. I would probably be somewhat more forgiving if it were someone they'd had a past relationship with (those feelings could probably linger dormant for a long time and resurface intensely), for instance, than if it were someone new or random.

It would also depend on why I felt they had done it. If it were for gratification, or to fill an unfulfilled need, then that would be the worst case. If I felt they had just lost themselves to the moment and their affection for the person, I'd be more forgiving of that as well. Note that I would probably simply trust my gut reaction to figure this out, rather than their words or any reasoning process, though.

Then again, perhaps I'm mistaken and some instinct in people kicks in during relationships that makes this seem absolutely wrong to them under all possible circumstances, regardless of whether they'd say so outside of the situation.

That's the problem, though - it is wrong. I know that some on here might disagree with or try and debate that doing it in retaliation, or because temptation is sometimes too great that it is all right... but that doesn't make it okay. It's a breach of trust if you are in a monogamous relationship, unless you have agreed to have a somewhat open one. Trust is crucial, important beyond belief - because everything in a relationship is based on each other, their actions and words... if you can't trust that, it's so difficult to move forward or really give them your whole self.

Also, if someone cheats it normally points to some other problem that has been allowed to fester, not resolved properly. Like the first response put so well.

And it feels so horrible to be lied to, when it is someone you love.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
Most people are inclined to state this in absolute terms "Cheating is cheating is cheating," but I'm not so certain about this (though I've never been that close to someone, either).

I think it would depend on the circumstances. I would probably be somewhat more forgiving if it were someone they'd had a past relationship with (those feelings could probably linger dormant for a long time and resurface intensely), for instance, than if it were someone new or random.

It would also depend on why I felt they had done it. If it were for gratification, or to fill an unfulfilled need, then that would be the worst case. If I felt they had just lost themselves to the moment and their affection for the person, I'd be more forgiving of that as well. Note that I would probably simply trust my gut reaction to figure this out, rather than their words or any reasoning process, though.

Then again, perhaps I'm mistaken and some instinct in people kicks in during relationships that makes this seem absolutely wrong to them under all possible circumstances, regardless of whether they'd say so outside of the situation.

I just read through this thread, not intending to reply as it's addressed to the NF's, but this reply stunned me because it's EXACTLY the opposite of what I'd say and I'm utterly amazed at how completely differently people can see the world!!
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i just don't have any set rules about this sort of thing. it would depend on the strength and importance of the relationship and how it made me feel and the circumstances surrounding it. i've never been with someone who cheated or even seemed capable of it but...no...i would never make myself forgive anything out of love...i would have to truly forgive and understand what happened and commit to fixing it together.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
Agree with what fidelia said. :yes:

It's not about whether you can forgive the person for cheating on you. It's about WHY the person chose to cheat. There's something wrong with the relationship if there's cheating going on. You can either try to work that out... or take the easier/more sensible route and walk out.
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Nope. I don't think it's particularly hard to "not cheat." Just an act of selfishness, narcissism and disloyalty. All the potential excuses just seem so whiny.

i find a lot of angles in this question. i'm going to type them out but i kind of want you to just Te tear what i say apart and simplify it for me.

the first is the question of what a relationship is SUPPOSED to be. what makes sense for relationships, how that fits into individual human beings having fulfilling lives and developing themselves and their desires in ways they see rewarding and meaningful. i struggle to understand if the idea of monogamy is ultimately one of those like taboo ideas that you just have to accept at face value to participate in the "serious relationship" game. and the way in which that game intersects with sexual discourses is so muddled and messy- it's frustrating for an N who wants to assimilate all the perspectives and synthesize them into something TRUE.

sexual behavior/practices and the idea of a long-term relationship seem connected in fuzzy ways to me. what this comes down to is CHEATING, which even the language for it is so contractual and legalistic, it has to do with accepting the binding law for a life partnership, a business venture that starts out and proceeds thru a series of phases/transformations intending to build security at a reasonable socially accredited level/way. these are important, i understand, for individual persons to be able to make their way in the world, part out their work, and focus on certain tasks that they can learn and develop skill for in order to do better and w/ more specialization. ie that i won't have to make the money so i can write books, create a pleasing domestic environment, organize leisure and learning and self-improvement, etc. but the ways in which these limit relationships with other human beings can be a huge crutch for development, and this relates to sexual practices as well (which is a serious and valid language for expression, exploration, etc between two people and a way in which they know each other, encoutner each other, and dialogically define themselves thru their experiences with others, positioning themselves within gender discourses, social status discourses, anima animus shit, aesthetic development, T-F balance, clean out the pipes, etc).

i recognize all these aspects to the equation but my short answer is HELL NO. i'm way too insecure. i understand that my idea of a relationship, particularly a serious long-term life partnership relationship requires many artificial constructs/boundaries for me to have a reasonable level of confidence/trust in the situation. and i would like to point out that THIS is what many of these relationship structures do, what they are there for. it is not any inherent truth to the way in which relationships should or naturally unfold, it is just necessary precautions and like a LANGUAGE for relationships so taht we can appropriately read and respond to the situation. they are not more RIGHT in any way, but certain individuals need more explication, need stricter requirements and tighter socio-sexual boundaries to feel safe/secure/confident/trusting as a partner.

i am a 5w4 enneagram wise. my tendency is to withdraw to protect my own autonomy and not get over-extended/exposed by the weaknesses that are created in attaching to another (individual or group). i want more control over the articulation of my self, my self-image, my story/narrative of self, my idea of self, my future self projections, etc. anything that threatens these or jeopardizes my ability to do this, or forces me to swallow some bad Fe blood that is disillusioning regarding this, questions and interrogates my ways of integrating my-self as an identity and idea of who i am and who i relate/stack up to others, (which is very 4 wing- wanting to be recognized as a uniquely valuable individual who stands out and is not like the others, is never lumped in with "the rest," etc), just punishes me for idealizing something in a way that is not accurate, or makes me have to question my own Ni connections stored away and update my shit and feel LOST in liminality and unknowing and uncertainty as to who i am, what i'm doing here, and how i relate to others socially, sexually, self-preservationally (success!), etc.

i would never accept it from someone else. in terms of what a relationship brings to me, i'm realizing my unrealistic expecations to be loved in like another higher better totally categorically different kind of way is silly and absurd. human beings are built to desire, like, love, learn from, fuck other human beings. but i do know that the added security from someone who wants to take care of me (especially in terms of worldly and practical things), attend to my emotional state and wants to nurture it, care for it, etc, is a very significant for me. whereas some types are more inspirational and help release and express big waves of emotional torrent, others ground me from the storms. this ebb and flow is a difficult question to master and only LIFE can answer it, radically contextual and highly situation specific. i don't know what will happen, and it is the nature of highly advanced social beings to have many diverse and conflictin desires that must be managed and maintained. but each person kind of has an obligation to do the best tehy can for themselves, do what they need to do. there are hopefully built-in obligations (dependencies!) to others as well, but they ARE secondary aspects of a life that is ultimately your own to live.

it is difficult at times for extraverted judgers to turn your own judgment on yourself and your own actions in a way that allows you to stay in touch with your own wants and needs. whereas introverted judging types follow their hearts or their logic in an easier way.
 

ergophobe

Allergic to Mornings
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
1,210
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
No to continuing with the relationship. I recognize that there are a variety of reasons that explain why someone might choose to step outside the relationship to meet their physical needs, some of which may point to problems in the relationship itself. Having said that, I do see it (actual physical infidelity) as a choice a person makes, cognizant of its consequences. They could have also chosen to work on the problems. I would, were the situation reversed.

I would have difficulty building up trust again and that, as many posters before me have said, is essential for my own desire to continue in the relationship. So, no, I would not be able to continue with the relationship.

Forgiveness is a separate issue - sure, purely on the basis of humanity, I would forgive. Also, if the person is not in my life any more and it would benefit me to move on, I would work hard on forgiving so I could move on with my own life.
 
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