[MBTI General] How do NF's talk to S's in general?

[Snow Turtle]

Ah, I think I understand what you're saying here.

But to be honest, while I like people a little bit, I'm not interested in emotionally investing myself in their lives to this extent. I'd rather interact with people online who'll dump this stuff on me right away than work for it. If I have to work for it, I'd honestly rather just ignore them and focus only on practical issues while in their presence. It may seem lazy, but that's kind of how I feel.

I don't really expect anything from Sensors or Extraverts. I've accepted that we have different roles in life. They live in their world, and I live in mine. We intersect on the plane of practical, day-to-day tasks (could potentially help one another there), and then go our separate ways. Them to their goofy social lives, me to my computer to talk on this forum. This is the way it should be, IMO. Both types of people doing what we most want to do is ideal.

I don't want Sensors to be less shallow, honestly. Otherwise, what would I define my own depth in relation to? The world needs shallow people, and it needs deeper people. They all fit into the larger picture in their own place.

Please tell me this is satire.
I honestly can't tell.

 

[Athenian200]

Please tell me this is satire.
I honestly can't tell.

It's not completely serious, but it's not completely kidding, either. Does that help or make it worse?

The point is, in the scenario Proteanmix revealed, the only way to get Sensors to open up is by emotionally investing in them. There's no good reason for me to work at that in real life, alongside the necessary work I need to focus on, when I can just go online and get the same kind of interaction I'm seeking without a frustrating investment. So I might as well go ahead and limit my interaction with them in real life to the practical sphere, and be grateful they don't demand an investment of real energy.

And it is true that without shallow people, the ones with depth wouldn't know they were deep (because they'd have no point of reference). So they should think about that before condemning them rather than appreciating them. It's not quite true that such shallow people would be more likely to be S, though.

 

[Snow Turtle]

It's not completely serious, but it's not completely kidding, either. Does that help or make it worse?

Good stuff. But still I'll have to burn you depending on which aspect.

The point is, in the scenario Proteanmix revealed, the only way to get Sensors to open up is by emotionally investing in them. There's no good reason for me to work at that in real life, alongside the necessary work I need to focus on, when I can just go online and get the same kind of interaction I'm seeking without a frustrating investment. So I might as well go ahead and limit my interaction with them in real life to the practical sphere, and be grateful they don't demand an investment of real energy.

Becoming an underground hikikomori?

Oh well, welcome to the dark side of the internet!

And it is true that without shallow people, the ones with depth wouldn't know they were deep (because they'd have no point of reference). So they should think about that before condemning them rather than appreciating them. It's not quite true that such people would be more likely to be S, though.

Reminds me of the whole discussion whether pain is needed to experience happiness, and my refusal to believe that it's not possible to have happiness without a contrast. Then there's the problem of defining exactly what a shallow person is, and practical issues aside that it's impossible not to make comparisons, whether it's even necessary for one to know that they are deep. What are the benefits of adopting this attitude? How does it change reality? Is it used so we can interact more efficiently? Or is it used so that we can boost our own ego at the expense of others?

 

[seeker22]

Person A: Man, am I ever glad it's Friday!
Person B: Yeah, only two more days before it starts all over again.
A: What are you doing this weekend?
B: Well my youngest daughter and her husband are coming into town so we'll probably go out somewhere.
A: How are you liking your empty nest?
B: It's quiet and I don't mind the quiet, but sometimes I wish my kids would visit more often. It's just me and the dog.

There are many types of deep conversations to be had out there. Sometimes it's just recognizing when someone is beginning it with you. If you're like :rolli: not again. She's about to start talking about her kids and grandkids. I don't want to hear this you're missing the underlying fear of aging and being alone, which to me is the deeper abstract conversation.

Ohhhhhhhh... I like this. A lot. Tuning into the underlying messages behind the concrete seemingly superfical-esque small talk words. That's a shift for me I am going to be implementing... Thank you! =)

 

[Negative_]

sign language.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I sometimes get the feeling that my ISFJ girlfriend is tuning me out, so I asked her to just tell me that I'm going off on some tangent. I'm very intuitive and find it pretty easy to get lost in my own head at times. She is very concrete.

I am a terrible procrastinator. She keeps lists and gets things done.
I am slow to engage with others. She is very warm and inviting.
There are things in my head that I will probably never share with her because she probably won't get it, but then again, a lot of those same things I am hesitant to share with anyone. I know plenty of N's who aren't that bright. Sorry, but it's true. It's not a key to the shining castle on the hill. It's just another way of organizing input from the world.
I sometimes wonder if some of my intuitive navel gazing isn't just a narcissistic self indulgence anyway...
My mother is a sensor too. I know she doesn' get a whole lot of what I say, but so what? I know she loves me and wants me to be happy. My FG is so compassionate and kind. Hanging out with her and her friends has been a wonderful experience in getting OUT of my head.
People are just people. Be friendly and kind first. We can all just get along.

 

[proteanmix]

Ohhhhhhhh... I like this. A lot. Tuning into the underlying messages behind the concrete seemingly superfical-esque small talk words. That's a shift for me I am going to be implementing... Thank you! =)

God help me and my I told you so's but I find it ironic that I had to break this down into a concrete and literal fashion for it to be understood.

 

[OrangeAppled]

An ESFJ came up to me and did the weirdest thing this week.

She said to me, "Do you know what I do when I get up in the morning?" and I said, "No but you're going to tell me." laugh laugh laugh. Then she continued, "Every morning I get and ask myself how can I make my self better today." And I was like "Seriously?" More conversation. Then she says, "But I've been wondering over the last few months, why am I doing this? What is my rush? Why do I feel like I have to accomplish so much by the time I'm 30? Who am I racing against? I overheard a woman on the subway talking about getting her college degree at 40. Why I am running so hard and fast?"

She initiated what I would consider an "abstract" conversation and she's only 24! Her Ne isn't due to cross the horizon for at least another 20-25 years! And the conversation was more than 20 minutes! But sadly after that we starting talking about Beyonce.

From what I'm interpreting people saying in this thread is they expect this type of conversation non-stop all the time. And the type of abstract conversations I think NFs want is to have someone pour out their heart and soul. I'd like to ask those who feel like they're not getting enough of this type of conversation from people what are you doing to cultivate an atmosphere where people feel comfortable talking to you like this? Certainly, you understand that some people (I'd say most people) wouldn't casually bust out with this? So many of these complaints are based on the fact that you may be closed off yourself and when you do decide to foray into conversations like this with others you have no foundation or platform set for them to happen. And then you get upset when they don't happen when you've done nothing to make them happen.

I have conversations like this with various Essess nearly every other day. Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to half of the people who've commented on this thread about anything abstract and deep because I seriously detect a superior attitude and perhaps others detect this as well. I have found little reason to significantly change my casual conversational topics because someone won't be interested in it. I find an angle to make the conversation as interesting and engaging for most people involved. Use your precious N to figure out how.

Hmm...I don't find that girl's comments "abstract" at all....seems very straightforward & practical to me....

Anyway, I think the N/S divide can sometimes have less to do with topics than manner of expression. I personally do not want to discuss philosophy or religion with just any person. I can deal with lighter topics just fine. I often prefer playful discussion to deep discussion.
The issue arises in how I discuss any topic.

For instance, my ESFP sister will not tolerate my use of hypothetical situations to illustrate a point on a practical matter. The discussion itself is not on abstract or "deep" matters, but my way of speaking is still intuitive. She rejects my contribution by saying it's irrelevant because it's not "real". She refuses to even try and make the connection between my theoretical offering and the issue at hand. This is frustrating for me, because it invalidates my view as a person. The intuitive is the one made to feel stupid and lesser, not the sensor.

Sensors do this a lot, even if they aren't quite as rude about it as my sister. Their eyes glaze over and they "uh huh" you til you get the hint & shut up. Then later some sensor says something that essentially takes your view and expresses it less abstractedly, and then everyone credits them with the thought :steam:

 

[seeker22]

God help me and my I told you so's but I find it ironic that I had to break this down into a concrete and literal fashion for it to be understood.

You know... With all due respect... For someone accusing others in the forum of having superior attitudes... (I thought we were simply having an exploratory discussion) I must say your posts come off as a bit condescending. I tried to subtly suggest this to you, but you couldn't grasp it. Anyway - thanks for the insight. Hopefully the chip on your shoulder will ease up a little at some point...

 

[Unique]

I don't know why sensors tune out, I was just posing a theory. But I do indeed get the sense that the ESxPs I know feel uncomfortable with this kind of conversation. This may not apply to you, of course.


OMG...you're so right! I'm completely jealous of your lopsided focus on the concrete world. I have no idea how to do that.


Fairy land...hmmm. I wonder why sensors are allowed to make derogatory comments about intuition, but when the situation is reversed, people call it condescending.

The last two comments were to simply test if you had a sense of humor

The reason people don't make jokes about sensing is because we live in a real concrete world

"hahaha how realistic was that guy who knew how to do that thing on his ipod"

compared to

"hahaha how off the planet was that guy, talking about stuff that will never even happen"

Obviously the second guy would get the laugh response and gee I wonder why?

You acknowledge what I said, acknowledge you don't know why they tune out, then go and use that word "uncomfortable" again

Also again you accuse me of talking about myself, this was never about me.

I have nothing against intuition I just find it amusing that you are so f**king amazed that it isn't looked upon as "fairy landish" hell most Ns are a bit more modest and know that its pretty impractical most of the time but comes in handy in certain fields/expertise in the world

I'm not likely replying to you as you seem closed minded and quite frankly repetitive and boring (keep making false assumptions), feel free to have the last say though

 

[Lauren Ashley]

The last two comments were to simply test if you had a sense of humor

You acknowledge what I said, acknowledge you don't know why they tune out, then go and use that word "uncomfortable" again

Also again you accuse me of talking about myself, this was never about me.

I'm not replying to you, feel free to have the last say though

You've been replying to me in a crude manner for some reason, and never actually contemplating what I've said. I'm speaking from my experiences. I'm allowed to do that. Don't turn this into a "one-up" game.

 

[Unique]

You've been replying to me in a crude manner for some reason, and never actually contemplating what I've said. I'm speaking from my experiences. I'm allowed to do that. Don't turn this into a "one-up" game.

Hardly I don't take things seriously enough to be crude.

Speaking from experiences? Isn't than an S thing?

How about you use that lovely intuition of yours and and imagine a sensing type you get along well with, what are they like? How do they communicate with you?

Well the person you just imagined is out there along with countless others like them

NF/S communication is easy, in fact I find it to be the easiest

Edit. Oh with the exception of you

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Hardly I don't take things seriously enough to be crude.

Speaking from experiences? Isn't than an S thing?

How about you use that lovely intuition of yours and and imagine a sensing type you get along well with, what are they like? How do they communicate with you?

Well the person you just imagined is out there along with countless others like them

NF/S communication is easy, in fact I find it to be the easiest

What I don't understand is why you're trying to tell me what I should do, and in a condescending manner. I don't know where you got off on that angle. Whatever beef you have with intuitives on this forum, doesn't have anything to do with me.

 

[seeker22]

NF/S communication is easy, in fact I find it to be the easiest.

Hmmm... A bold statement... I would guess that you might be in the minority with that claim... as far as it being the *easiest* that is.

I agree with Lauren Ashley... Some very real differences between the two DO exist. That's all that's being pointed out and explored for the purpose of increasing understanding.

 

[Unique]

Hmmm... A bold statement... I would guess that you might be in the minority with that claim... as far as it being the *easiest* that is.

I agree with Lauren Ashley... Some very real differences between the two DO exist. That's all that's being pointed out and explored for the purpose of increasing understanding.

Maybe on this forum there's the misconception that its difficult

Out there in the real world besides my fellow SPs the NFs are the easiest and most enjoyable (for me) to talk with

 

[Jeffster]

"Idealists are naturally inductive in their thought and speech, which is to say that they move quickly from the part to the whole, from a few particulars to sweeping generalizations, from the smallest sign of something to its entirety. With their focus on the unseen potentials, on the not visible and the not yet, Idealists show an extraordinary sensitivity to hints of things, mere suggestions, inklings, intimations, symbols. To be sure, such inductive inferences, requiring what is called the "intuitive leap", can be astonishing to others, especially in cases of mind reading and extra-sensory perception. At the very least, Idealists are the best suited of all the types to read between the lines, or to have a sixth sense about people, and they do indeeed follow theirr hunches, heed their feelings, and insist they "just know" what people are really up to, or what they really mean. Even with complicated issues NF's need hear only the first words of an explanation to feel they understand the subject fully, jumping from telling details to larger meanings."

That right there is the biggest communication issue I have with NFs. When their intuitions are right, it can be very valuable, but they can also be WAY OFF and it seems like there's no convincing them that they may not "just know" about something without really getting into the specifics of it. I have seen this play out over and over with my mother, my ex-wife, NF co-workers and people on this forum and other forums. If we're on the same page, it's great, but if not, it's like hitting my head against a wall.

By the way, I am not trying to say I'm superior in communication, so no one can accuse me of trying to say that Ns have to be the ones who always change to accommodate Ss. I am just trying to present my side of where difficulties arise. I love and admire y'all, and I want to be able to communicate better.

 

[seeker22]

I am just trying to present my side of where difficulties arise. I love and admire y'all, and I want to be able to communicate better.

Ditto that! Me too!

 

[Polaris]

I'm not sure about other NFs, but I usually talk to SPs in the same manner I talk to other intuitors. It's not the best recipe for understanding, but it does sometimes lead to amusement (more so with SFPs; it's hard for me to mesh with STPs). SJs are the ones I have to be a little more careful with. I find that a lot of them consider intuitive thinking ridiculous, so I tone that down while around them in order to get along. In most cases it isn't necessary to voice my wacky thoughts, so that isn't very hard to do. When I do want to voice those thoughts, I try to make them sound as reasonable as I can, and that's usually enough.

 

[Unique]

What I don't understand is why you're trying to tell me what I should do, and in a condescending manner. I don't know where you got off on that angle. Whatever beef you have with intuitives on this forum, doesn't have anything to do with me.

*dies from too many assumptions*

 

[CrystalViolet]

This, this, this, this is your problem I feel.

Nothing is wrong with being a quiet person who doesn't express themselves very often. But what I continually find to be the problem people have when wanting to engage people is that you (not you specifically but you have an excellent example of what I'm talking about) when YOU are ready to engage you have nothing foundational set to engage at that level. You've probably tuned out all that other stuff you consider minor and insignificant that OTHER people view as the building blocks to something more. Yet another example with that same ESFJ is one about her year old son. I have (not had to, but I choose to) sit through stories about the baby, disgusting cute things baby did, baby peeing on her and it was so cute, baby going through trash and getting a sanitary napkin it was so cute, blah blah blah, only later to get the conversation of What Kind of Mother Will I Be, How Do I Want To Raise My Child, What Kind of World is My Child Growing Up In, etc. etc.

Think about it exactly as you said it. No one has given YOU the platform to have those types of conversations have they? You're waiting for your opportunity right? Maybe someone out there will patiently listen and smile and occasionally comment while you wax on about capitalism and that would be right up your alley wouldn't it? And then they seize upon that moment in time when you say something about baking your sponge cake to just the right consistency and it tasting like a little slice of shangri-la in your mouth and they're like FINALLY!!

Yes, I understand the need to sometimes not go through all that "minor" stuff and talk about The Media as the Four Branch of Government, but even look at this forum as example. Are not the most popular threads here the ones meant solely for social purposes? Go do a search of the most viewed and commented in threads and I guarantee you they are not about epistemology of religious beliefs. It's probably the Picture Time thread and we've had to cut the serious conversations out of that thread in the past to keep it in all of it's fluffy glory.

I don't really know how to tell you how to get people not to cut you off dead when you start. I know that one of my methods is always celebrity gossip with women. The conversation will start one way, go off on a tangent more to my liking then probably come back to the original vein of conversation. Or like I was recently talking with a few people about the Sonia Sotomayor comments and we went into a discussion about what she meant when she said a wise Latina and what more diversity on the Supreme Court would mean. It was a racially mixed group of people and I found the conversation satisfying, but maybe someone else didn't.

Like I said, I don't know. I find these opportunities exist in virtually any conversation I have. And maybe it's just the type of personality that I have I am not afraid of steering a conversation down a certain path. And I can tell how receptive people are by how involved they get in the conversation. I don't expect to have conversations with 100% participation so maybe you would in fact be one of the people who is bored to death by my soporific sensorific convos.

When I want to jump straight into wham bam thank you mam abstract conversation I go to my film and philosophical discussion group where that's all we do is discuss that. But even there the conversation will occasionally lapse into some talk about kids and dinner. I don't know how to get around it.

You are right, in that I don't pay attention to details much. I don't mind so much listening to them if it's an equal convo. Sure I might get the odd eye roll when I leap into abstractville. My SP friends are much more tolerant of this.
I have to admit many of my SJ aquauntances and I have little in common, which really does make conversation difficult -if it's shared interest then it is so much easier....unfortuantly it's not uncommon though for me to find we have nothing in common, other than sharing common friends, living in same area, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't try. It can distress me when a stilted convo happens. I find that some SJ's have a good less patiance than I - that also depends, however, on maturity and how balanced they are. I find introvert SJ's more torlerant about finding common ground.

"Idealists are naturally inductive in their thought and speech, which is to say that they move quickly from the part to the whole, from a few particulars to sweeping generalizations, from the smallest sign of something to its entirety. With their focus on the unseen potentials, on the not visible and the not yet, Idealists show an extraordinary sensitivity to hints of things, mere suggestions, inklings, intimations, symbols. To be sure, such inductive inferences, requiring what is called the "intuitive leap", can be astonishing to others, especially in cases of mind reading and extra-sensory perception. At the very least, Idealists are the best suited of all the types to read between the lines, or to have a sixth sense about people, and they do indeeed follow theirr hunches, heed their feelings, and insist they "just know" what people are really up to, or what they really mean. Even with complicated issues NF's need hear only the first words of an explanation to feel they understand the subject fully, jumping from telling details to larger meanings."

That right there is the biggest communication issue I have with NFs. When their intuitions are right, it can be very valuable, but they can also be WAY OFF and it seems like there's no convincing them that they may not "just know" about something without really getting into the specifics of it. I have seen this play out over and over with my mother, my ex-wife, NF co-workers and people on this forum and other forums. If we're on the same page, it's great, but if not, it's like hitting my head against a wall.

By the way, I am not trying to say I'm superior in communication, so no one can accuse me of trying to say that Ns have to be the ones who always change to accommodate Ss. I am just trying to present my side of where difficulties arise. I love and admire y'all, and I want to be able to communicate better.

Jeff, how long do you wait for their leaps of intuition to pan out? (LOL!) Seriously, I've had people tell me what you quoted (parapharased, of course).
Of course, a year or two down the track, they come back and tell me I was right
Seriously, though, I'm guilty as charged with this. I'll admitt it. And this is no way an attempt to invalidate what you said, because it does ring true, but some times you guys take things way too much at face value. Sometimes there's a whole other story going on underneath. So when you come to stand off like that, we are just as frustrated as you are because there is something else going, although, sometimes (rarely) it's not actually what we thought it was, but it's definitely something BUT we can't show you, because it's nebolous thing, like a tickle at the back of the mind. I'm sure at those times if we could communicate that feeling better you would bring claratity, but I know at those times, I do extrapolate....if I get a resonable explanation that gels with that feeling I will almost certainly accept it, but if you straight out deny that feeling I have, rather that give me time to piece it together, then I will dig my heels and defend it to the death. Sometimes it best to humour us, so long, as no action is taken on that feeling.