[NF] INFJ/P: Highest in marital dissatisfaction...

[jenocyde]

I'm just wondering if the INFJs or Ps who are attracted to drama and/or pushing the boundaries, stirring things up etc. are not to the extreme edge of introversion. If I end up in drama for an hour, it will typically take at least ten hours to recover. Introversion by definition is a withdrawing behavior that prefers quiet and alone over stimulation. Introversion is a way of perceiving the world that tends towards feeling overwhelmed. Because of this, what appears like boredom to the extrovert can be overstimulating to the introvert.

I shut down in the face of drama. It is a real problem. I get sleepy and unaware. Even though I like people and find them interesting, I can't be around them because of the drama. The types of boundaries I push tend to be entirely conceptual and not involving actual people or the real world. It's more like entertaining types of philosophy I hadn't considered. In the real world I smile, nod, and keep people as undisturbed as possible.

Um, I don't know. Could it be that Is might want to be the little star of their own inner fantasy world... and need validation in order to keep it constantly about them?

As an E, I tend to get inspired by other people. I love hearing stories and helping solve problems. People are my universe. But a lot of Is come to me because they know I will indulge and listen to them... anything to keep from being alone with my own thoughts. (hey, we are all damaged to a degree.) They want me to validate all their thoughts and never question any decision they've made. They create this fantasy and want me to hold it up for them and get very angry when I point out that there is a man behind the curtain...

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Um, I don't know. Could it be that Is might want to be the little star of their own inner fantasy world... and need validation in order to keep it constantly about them?

As an E, I tend to get inspired by other people. I love hearing stories and helping solve problems. People are my universe. But a lot of Is come to me because they know I will indulge and listen to them... anything to keep from being alone with my own thoughts. (hey, we are all damaged to a degree.) They want me to validate all their thoughts and never question any decision they've made. They create this fantasy and want me to hold it up for them and get very angry when I point out that there is a man behind the curtain...

I suspect that happens. To clarify, it was not my purpose to imply any negative connotation about Extroverts in general. Drama is a somewhat neutral concept depending on the nature of that drama. My point was just the varying tolerance level between Is and Es for external stimulation/drama. It is an actual problem for me - my low tolerance for drama. I have had to restructure my career because of it. I have heard Extroverts describe Introverts as being only "into themselves" and equally negative comments about Es from Is. While any type of person can be self-centered, I wouldn't go so far as to lump the whole of Es or Is into such a category. I especially want to avoid the category attack of any type, so any part of my comment implied or otherwise that misconstrues Extroverts is retracted.

 

[jenocyde]

I suspect that happens. To clarify, it was not my purpose to imply any negative connotation about Extroverts in general. Drama is a somewhat neutral concept depending on the nature of that drama. My point was just the varying tolerance level between Is and Es for external stimulation/drama. It is an actual problem for me - my low tolerance for drama. I have had to restructure my career because of it. I have heard Extroverts describe Introverts as being only "into themselves" and equally negative comments about Es from Is. While any type of person can be self-centered, I wouldn't go so far as to lump the whole of Es or Is into such a category. I especially want to avoid the category attack of any type, so any part of my comment implied or otherwise that misconstrues Extroverts is retracted.

Fair enough. We all know these are silly generalizations anyway. People are diverse and unique.

That being said, I still can't understand why people don't want their problems fixed. But I guess that will always remain one of life's little mysteries...

 

[Tallulah]

I think a lot of people are just in denial--they might be totally miserable, but they still think their situation is manageable, and want you to help them see what they're not seeing. Unfortunately, most of the time, it's clear to the outsider that the situation is unsalvageable, and they just move on to the next person, who hopefully will tell them what they want to hear.

I don't think it's an introvert/extrovert thing, though.

 

[jenocyde]

I think a lot of people are just in denial--they might be totally miserable, but they still think their situation is manageable, and want you to help them see what they're not seeing. Unfortunately, most of the time, it's clear to the outsider that the situation is unsalvageable, and they just move on to the next person, who hopefully will tell them what they want to hear.

I don't think it's an introvert/extrovert thing, though.

This is a great answer. People looking for validation... Makes sense, thanks.

 

[Udog]

Tons and tons of thoughts I could go on for days. However, we (and in general, on this forum, I won't get agreement) won't agree on the way I build up my framework. I view people as very malleable and unaware. I talk about mate selection like people don't make choices, and that their choices don't matter much on the outcome. This offends sensibilities. For example, I'll say that, on average, marriages are more successful when chosen by an algorithm than by people, better chosen by those that know us than ourselves, and so forth. Who you pick isn't normally the issue... and sadly, if it is, it's not normally that we make bad choices, but that we are lousy at relationships (picking or not picking has much the same outcome).

This makes sense to me. Do you have any idea if marriage success rate increases the older someone waits until marriage, if you remove previous marriage from the picture?

The story this tells is that good relationships need both... but more than that, they need the framework - the environment - for both people to have both. That's really hard. The framework itself always comes down to the modes of communication the couple has developped.

Why are the big three so big? There are other notables, like women and sex, but the universal three are money, children and mate guarding (I'm summarizing a lot of things under mate guarding).

The answer lies in how open you are about these subjects. Can you talk about your specific money problems without emotional guilt/etc? To friends? Family? Very very rare. Do you have any expectations for your kids? Can you honestly say that you don't have assumptions in how they should be raised (often like or unlike your parents, in particular)? Do you feel guilty about sometimes not feeling happy in your marriage? Can you tell your spouse that? Can you hear it without personally feeling rejected?

These things are major stressors and they come with significant barriers to discussion. They are the stress test on the load-bearing beam in your relationship's framework. Most people fail it and end up miserable.

I can see why your views of why people aren't happy in relationships aren't matching with MBTI personality typing. To me, they aren't in conflict with each other, but neither do they support one another. They are almost in parallel.

For purposes of this thread, the ultimate question is, are INF_s likely to succumb to the obstacles you've mentioned?

I can say things like, the INF_ is not as likely to desire to build the framework of communication. The INF_ is likely to focus solely on the passion, and fail on the business aspects. If an NF's values hits upon the big three, they are likely not going to compromise. If their partner will also not compromise, it will become a major source of unhappiness.

Heh, want to guess what the response to my advice that one of the best books to read for relationship advice is to read negotiation books?

I consider myself far from cynical (although I've had my moments!), and one of the most useful books I've ever read is You Can Negotiate Anything. I've drawn many of my views of relationship conflict resolution from the "Win-Win" negotiating tactics, in particular.

There is a certain amount of truth to this... but as I said at the very top, every type has their issues. The thread is saying that being aggreeable and open is a negative thing for satisfaction, and I have to question the premise. Nothing I have seen supports this, not directly against those traits.

It's not the agreeableness or the idealism that's the problem, it's that left unchecked they can lead to us sacrificing our own needs, which end in us being unhappy. I can easily see the thread's points and your points merging at the level of defining "needs".

 

[Halla74]

Yes, you just have to find a way to enjoy the lows.

As I understand it, the "lows" in Unipolar Mania = Reality; which I am fine with. The mania is even better.

But when I do fall off the cliff, which is really fucking rare, I mean twice in my 35 year life thus far (the most frequent not too long ago) it is absolutely unbearable. Once I conquer it I am right as rain again for many years. No shit. I took the MMPI and the guy who discussed my results with me indicated that it is likely that I would rarely suffer major depressive episodes in my life. That was 7 years ago, the first one since that test hit this year.

Is my understanding of this phenomena erroneous?

 

[Rhapsody]

I've read their answers and can understand their thought processes, but still am not satisfied. I supposed it's because if I hear about the same problem over and over again, I just want to throttle someone if the solution is very simple. Let's be honest here, in most situations, someone will complain about the same problem for weeks rather than take moves to fix it. Or s/he will complain about a no good partner constantly but get upset with you for suggesting s/he leave him/her. I don't know, this may not be the truth, but oftentimes it seems like people just want an audience for their drama. It's not a shameful thing, everyone wants an audience sometimes... but for different reasons, you know what I mean?

I see that Tallulah already gave an excellent explanation for this, but I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean to equate the NF need for emotional support with this kind of running-on-the-hamster-wheel-of-negativity thing. Unless the person has an understandable reason for it (like depression), I also find it really frustrating and draining to be on the receiving end of someone's chronic complaining. When there's a definite solution to a problem, I believe that healthy emotional outreach should always speed the way to taking action, not the reverse.

 

[LotsOfHeart]

I read this in a professional study also. My wife of 15 years is INFJ. The elements of that type that have contributed to her being dissatisfied at times are:

(1) Introverts reach out for support less than extroverts, and thus can feel alone and isolated under stress.

(2) The NF idyllic is always searching for the perfect _____ and at times forgets that things in the here and now can be pretty damn good, and not in need of a little tweaking all things conisdered.

(3) INFJ does not like to make decisions on the fly (like ESTP!) and when communication between INFJ and E _ TP, ISTP, etc. ensues, sometimes INFJ will get overwhelmed with the details that go beyond their initial intent of the conversation, and the conversation will end. If this happens for too long, the INFJ will not "feel heard" and thus will become hurt and withdraw.

(4) The worst thing a _ _TP can do for an INFJ that is talking to them about a problem they having is SOLVE THE PROBLEM and walk away. It is best to listen.

(5) INFJs want to connect on a deeper level with their E _ _ _ mates at times, but don't define that for thier SO, making it hard for them to satisfy that need. Hiding the ball if you will.

These issues lead to a breakdown in communication, which is the kiss of death for any realtionship if it goes on for too long.

There are ways around them though. Isolate these 1 by 1 and keep at it. When you do, the INFJ is happy and a real joy to be with.

Man, that really is a great post. The only thing I don't personally agree with is that I like to talk my problems out with someone close to me. Listening is great, but I like to discuss my problems with my mate and receive encouragement, and I want to be able to do the same for her. I love encouraging the people I care about if they're not feeling great, and I love that she could feel comfortable coming to me if she was having a problem no matter what it was, I want to always be able to understand. If I can't help, then all I can do is listen and give hugs, but that can be helpful too.

That aside, your post is incredible. Obviously you have the experience being married to an INFJ, but it's still amazing to me because I've never seen an ESTP articulate an INFJ's emotional needs so accurately and so deeply, for that matter. It's not that ESTP's are not capable of that kind of understanding, they certainly are, but the types are complete opposites, and so your flexibility and willingness to understand the opposite point of view are really amazing. When I was first learning MBTI, I thought ESTPs and INFJs would be like oil and water, but it's really not like that at all. In fact, I get along well with pretty much all SP types (haven't really met any obvious ISTPs though, what are ISTP girls like? Or is that another thread? Haha).

 

[ptgatsby]

This makes sense to me. Do you have any idea if marriage success rate increases the older someone waits until marriage, if you remove previous marriage from the picture?

Yes... although I don't think it is linear. IIRC the advantages grow smaller some time in the mid twenties.

For purposes of this thread, the ultimate question is, are INF_s likely to succumb to the obstacles you've mentioned?

That's the issue I have. The research I have seen shows that NFs positively correlate to relationship satisfaction. Now, that doesn't mean that INFs don't self-report as unhappier than average (they could just be making their partner happier than average!)... but I have to question the premise. I couldn't find any support for it when I looked.

I can say things like, the INF_ is not as likely to desire to build the framework of communication. The INF_ is likely to focus solely on the passion, and fail on the business aspects. If an NF's values hits upon the big three, they are likely not going to compromise. If their partner will also not compromise, it will become a major source of unhappiness.

All of which I agree is possible. I don't really know, least not directly. Nothing suggests that this is more relevant than other type issues... TJ dominance, or STP flight emotions, etc. Again, if anything, it tends to go the other way around with everything I have read. If this is true, it's most likely systemic, not specific to relationships, which means higher neuroticism (more negative emotions). However, the correlation here is almost entire absent, so I find that unusual as well. Now, this depends again on the study - self selection would be different than formal testing.

I consider myself far from cynical (although I've had my moments!), and one of the most useful books I've ever read is You Can Negotiate Anything. I've drawn many of my views of relationship conflict resolution from the "Win-Win" negotiating tactics, in particular.

Absolutely. That and game theory knowledge to engineer win-win situations is at the bottom of every successful relationship, learnt or not.

It's not the agreeableness or the idealism that's the problem, it's that left unchecked they can lead to us sacrificing our own needs, which end in us being unhappy. I can easily see the thread's points and your points merging at the level of defining "needs".

Right, I can see that. What I mean by this is that there are more positive outcomes (relative to the opposites) identified against the NF traits, as they apply to relationships. Can you think of an equivalent positive effect that the opposite has in relationships? STs, I mean.

It's also one thing to say that idealism and the like can cause issues, it's another to say that they cause more internal disatisfaction than every other type. I completely agree that it can lead to issues... but I am skeptical that of all the traits that all types generally have, that is the most destructive one out there. (Again, if it is an internal thing, it should of shown up in other ways... but I haven't seen it. Possible to be specific to relationships? Always possible. Just... doubtful.)

 

[Udog]

Now, this depends again on the study - self selection would be different than formal testing.

Yeah, excellent point.

Right, I can see that. What I mean by this is that there are more positive outcomes (relative to the opposites) identified against the NF traits, as they apply to relationships. Can you think of an equivalent positive effect that the opposite has in relationships? STs, I mean.

I'm not sure if I understand the question. Do you mean do STs have anything similar to NF idealism that could lead to relationship satisfaction?

It's also one thing to say that idealism and the like can cause issues, it's another to say that they cause more internal disatisfaction than every other type. I completely agree that it can lead to issues... but I am skeptical that of all the traits that all types generally have, that is the most destructive one out there. (Again, if it is an internal thing, it should of shown up in other ways... but I haven't seen it. Possible to be specific to relationships? Always possible. Just... doubtful.)

The item being tested probably matters. I can see a relationship where the bond is fairly strong, and the NF reports being happy, but because of less then ideal living conditions, the SJ partner reports being unhappy.

Hmm....

 

[Thalassa]

A few thoughts:

1. INFPs and INFJs are the most statistically likely to marry their ESTJ / ESTP opposites. Opposite marriages tend to be the most statistically likely to be unhappy, though.

2. Many INF_s don't have very realistic expectations of how a relationship works in the real world. About once every week or three I see a post by a young INF_ who is setting themselves up for future relationship dissatisfaction.

3. INF_s usually need to learn the hard way that they need to modify their values to fit into the real world (and not the other way around). 99% of young INF_s simply aren't ready to take the advice of those that have already been there - they need to experience it and go through the pain themselves. If they happen to marry before learning this lesson...

4. Both types are prone to avoid conflict until things go "too far", at which point mending the relationship becomes an epic task. Confronting issues as soon as they occur - don't let them fester.

5. Both types can remain in a bad relationship way too long. INF_s take pride in their ability to judge people and potential, and it takes a great big bite of humble pie to admit we were wrong, or that the situation has changed and no longer fits the ideal.

It's an art - melding internal, dreamy idealism with the sometimes harsh realities of the real world. Embrace it, as together they are a powerful mixture. The INF_s that I've seen happiest in marriage have perfected this art.

1. I would probably be most likely to marry an ESFP, ENFP, or ENTP. Maybe an INTP. I think I'm most attracted to men who are more extroverted than me, but still very feeling/emotional...the very idea of marrying a TJ makes me cringe. My point is that I have a very hard time picturing myself in a LTR with either of the types you listed.

2. This may be true. But I think I'm actually slightly more realistic than some people I've met.

3. This I will agree with.

4. I don't necessarily avoid conflict. I mean I can, but I don't think I do as much as some.

5. Been there, done that. However, I was just totally in love with this person. It wasn't about pride at all.

 

[Prototype]

It's an art - melding internal, dreamy idealism with the sometimes harsh realities of the real world. Embrace it, as together they are a powerful mixture. The INF_s that I've seen happiest in marriage have perfected this art.

... The only way to survive through one IMO!

 

[Halla74]

(1.) I would probably be most likely to marry an ESFP, ENFP, or ENTP. Maybe an INTP. I think I'm most attracted to men who are more extroverted than me, but still very feeling/emotional...the very idea of marrying a TJ makes me cringe. My point is that I have a very hard time picturing myself in a LTR with either of the types you listed.

Don't rule out an ESTP as a potential husband/long term SO. We are alot of fun, generous, and more flexible than you would imagine if you meet us half way and forgive our eccentricities as we (so willingly) forgive those of others. Plus, we are so damn good loooking, and modest too!!!

Just promotoing my MBTI kin...

 

[ptgatsby]

I'm not sure if I understand the question. Do you mean do STs have anything similar to NF idealism that could lead to relationship satisfaction?

I mean that there are two different ways of looking at the OP. First is that NFs are prone to having miserable relationships (ie: both partners are unhappier with NFs), or that NFs are just less satisfied in relationships (regardless of if their partners are happy with them.

What I'm saying is that from what I've read, NF is positively associated with overall happiness in a relationship - and also from what I've read, NF has next to no relationship to "general" unhappiness.

I'm more or less asking - do you think NFs cause more relationship unhappiness than their opposites, STs? I highly doubt that is the source of the issue - meaning that if there is an issue, it's an internal perception issue more than tangible drawbacks of idealism.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I'm more or less asking - do you think NFs cause more relationship unhappiness than their opposites, STs? I highly doubt that is the source of the issue - meaning that if there is an issue, it's an internal perception issue more than tangible drawbacks of idealism.

The force of habit and the familiar can propel some relationships onward for years. It can be downright terrifying to identify when a long-term relationship is not working. It throws an entire life into uncertainty. What could possibly motivate someone to do that? I think NFs are more likely to pay attention to the dynamics and get a feel for when it isn't working. They could arguably be simply more aware of the unhappiness that is often present in relationships that others address by going golfing, shopping, or finding distractions to keep the routine going instead of facing the authenticity of the situation.

 

[ptgatsby]

The force of habit and the familiar can propel some relationships onward for years. It can be downright terrifying to identify when a long-term relationship is not working. It throws an entire life into uncertainty. What could possibly motivate someone to do that? I think NFs are more likely to pay attention to the dynamics and get a feel for when it isn't working. They could arguably be simply more aware of the unhappiness that is often present in relationships that others address by going golfing, shopping, or finding distractions to keep the routine going instead of facing the authenticity of the situation.

Sure, I guess that's another explanation. Still ends up as amounting to an internal perception, rather than a tangible influence...

 

[Udog]

I mean that there are two different ways of looking at the OP. First is that NFs are prone to having miserable relationships (ie: both partners are unhappier with NFs), or that NFs are just less satisfied in relationships (regardless of if their partners are happy with them.

I definitely think it's the latter, which is still an important thing for us INFs to realize. We can use that knowledge for personal growth.

Thank you, though, for putting a scientific perspective to all this. I'd also hate for any INFs to think it's their idealism that's the problem, considering it may be their greatest gift.

I'm more or less asking - do you think NFs cause more relationship unhappiness than their opposites, STs? I highly doubt that is the source of the issue - meaning that if there is an issue, it's an internal perception issue more than tangible drawbacks of idealism.

Well, remember it's INFs that we are referring to here - so the NF vs ST comparison may be a bit broad.

NFs vs STs - as a rule, I'd say NFs don't cause more relationship unhappiness. This is especially true with the STJs, which often show their love in concrete ways but can be verbally rough, something that many "F" partners have a hard time dealing with.

 

[ptgatsby]

Well, remember it's INFs that we are referring to here - so the NF vs ST comparison may be a bit broad.

Yup, I dropped the I off because it is generally correlated to being 'unhappy'... or to be more accurate, Es associate very strongly against positive emotions in general, with Is having a lack of them. That's bad both for tangible relationship influences, as well as perception of them. All Is are in that situation, though.

 

[nightning]

Sure, I guess that's another explanation. Still ends up as amounting to an internal perception, rather than a tangible influence...

Internal perception leading to a negative attitude that manifest itself in behaviour. Classical psychology theory for you.

The INFxs dream rather strongly of what a relationship should be like. Dream as in fantasize. This leads to often unrealistic expectations. And when they see that reality doesn't reflect ideal... they're likely to do one of two things: blame themselves for "messing up" (INFJ), attempt to convince themselves that everything is going okay (INFP).

INFJs try to fix the problem. The impossible task of making reality into the ideal relationship. They beat themselves up for every little mishap, not realizing the negativity they're projecting onto themselves is increasing the friction within the relationship. Their partners sense the INFJ trying to correct everything... dissatisfaction occurs when they feel the INFJ think the relationship is "not good enough". This is not just imagined.

INFPs try to convince themselves that things are close enough to their expectation, yet negative emotions leaks through. In this case it is unvoiced dissatisfaction. Their partners ask what's wrong, the INFP say nothing's wrong. Words that don't match actions lead to frustration.

Of course these are two extremely stereotypical responses. I don't really see STs engaging in this sort of behaviour though.