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[NF] INFJ/P: Highest in marital dissatisfaction...

ceecee

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I agree with Halla's post, I have a lot of high expectations of people and especially those I am close to or in a relationship with. I give a lot of myself and I spend a lot of time thinking about how I can do things better for the other person, how I can make them feel the best they can, how I can make this relationship reach it's highest potential, and in return I do expect the same

I do hope you're never disappointed by your partner but it will happen in a LT relationship. While it feels like the right thing to do, you'll also have to realize that being on a quest to make them feel the best they can really isn't your job to do. Motivating a partner is one thing. Taking on the responsibility for their happiness is not.
 

ReadingRainbows

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Halla pretty much summed it up...

Being one of those idealistic INFJs, I really hope I am satisfied with my marriage.

Me too, one of my number one fears is having a failed marriage.
 

whimsical

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I do hope you're never disappointed by your partner but it will happen in a LT relationship. While it feels like the right thing to do, you'll also have to realize that being on a quest to make them feel the best they can really isn't your job to do. Motivating a partner is one thing. Taking on the responsibility for their happiness is not.

I am not taking full responsibility for their happiness, no, because I do know that they should be happy with me regardless. That's why they are with me, because who I am makes them happy. But in a relationship I do strive to put meaning into everything I do and I am constantly thinking of how my partner feels, and how to improve these feelings if they are down. That's what a relationship is to me, being yourself but also making sure that the other person is the happiest they can be just as well.

As for the "fullest potential" question I try to make sure that aspects of the relationship are always in the up levels, like communication, I always tell my partners that I want to hear what they are thinking whether it hurts me or not because I know communication is very important. And then there are other things, like doing a variety of activities together so we don't get bored, and building our persons together. For me a relationship is a bond between 2 people and if the bond is good, both people can and should be learning more about themselves and achieving personal growth together.
 

runvardh

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I've stopped expecting perfection a while ago. Now I just go by what I know I need, what I'd like, and what I can deal with. This is what I've come up with so far, I just hope it's realistic enough.
 

OrangeAppled

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Hmm...I've read INTPs have the highest dissatisfaction & most problems, because of intimacy issues (not able to get close & communicate positively).
I read that in a few books my sis has discussing MBTI and relationships, but I don't remember the names...
 

proteanmix

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Really great post.

The theme of changing and the ability of people to change others and themselves are thoughts I dwell on very often. One of the main problems I see when people talk about their relationships (and myself too), regardless of type, is the ability to have realistic expectations and disassemble some of the more grandiose expectations. It's really hard and we've been fed so many fairy tales of what relationships are supposed to be.

I guess this is a somewhat pessimistic way to view relationships, but my mother has said to me if you want to be in a successful LTR you need to take a good hard look at your partners bad qualities and figure out if those are something you can deal with. Those are the things you can't really expect a person to change and how you respond to those things make or break a relationship.

Is it fair and reasonable to have some idealism and expectations change in a relationship? Damn, sometimes it's like should you dare to dream? I guess it's like casca said. My friend and I were talking about how it seems like everyone in his current city of resident seems to be young and coupled, but it's a strange type of coupling like people are resigned to their partner, to their job, to their lives of quiet desperation.

I was reading this article yesterday about how a predictor of divorce is how bored partners are with each other. What shakes things up a bit in a LTR or marriage that keeps things growing and interesting if it's not the expectation of something different or something changing for the better? If you have no to low expectations (good or bad) yeah you're less disappointed but are you really happier and satisfied? That's just complacency and acceptance of the relational status quo.

I think some of the problem is people are told to shoot for the stars and they can be anything they want to be. It's more admirable to be driven and ambitions and determined when it comes to a career than it is to have that same type of focus turned towards your relationships. And in the end, I think it's more about the quality of your intimate relationships than anything else because those provide support for when everything else in your life is falling apart.

So maybe INFs do or don't have unrealistic expectations, I can't really say for sure. All the research and data I see shows that not many other married people are faring much better so eh.
 

entropie

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Meaning dont marry an infp or infj woman, if you dont want to be stuck with a wife for all your life, who cant voice her dissatisfaction ?!

I actually thought my infj to be quite the opposite type.
 

jenocyde

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I think some of the problem is people are told to shoot for the stars and they can be anything they want to be. It's more admirable to be driven and ambitions and determined when it comes to a career than it is to have that same type of focus turned towards your relationships.

Protean, this is an excellent point. I never once in my life took any relationship as seriously as I did my career. My motto has always been: I work so hard all day, the last thing I want to do when I come home is more work.

I think there are a lot of people like me who fool themselves into thinking differently about themselves. Then they end up getting married and disappointing their partners. A lot of people simply do not want to make the effort. I admit that I am one of these people, which is why marriage will not be in the cards for me.

All of this really is about self-awareness, and understanding human expectations and limitations.
 

Udog

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my new mantra. thank you!

:)

It would be very difficult for me to hear a problem and not take any steps to fix it. If this is a major point of contention in INFx relationships, then some compromise needs to be made. Out of curiosity, if you want to work it out yourselves, then why talk about it?

Generally, for us to influence the external world, we must first influence our internal worlds. Any attempt by someone to affect that can be intrusive. However, once that's done, I'll greatly welcome solutions to solve the problem.

This isn't an INF_ thing, but people in general also refuse help out of pride, which is somewhat silly. It's easy for us INF_s to not accept help because of the whole "What does that imply if I accept help from you?"

I'd be interested in seeing the study itself... it doesn't fit into what I've read about relationship satisfaction... including idealization. It's normally a positive thing.

Could you clarify this a bit?
 

jenocyde

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Generally, for us to influence the external world, we must first influence our internal worlds. Any attempt by someone to affect that can be intrusive. However, once that's done, I'll greatly welcome solutions to solve the problem.

I understand and do the same thing. But the question is why talk about it? I never discuss problems if I know I don't want to hear anyone run their mouth off with their opinions...
 

ptgatsby

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Could you clarify this a bit?

Sure... typically speaking, personality theories do not give strong support for relationship satisfaction. There are multiple layers of fuzzyness... or better put, it's additive layers of deviations. This is important because a lot of the 'traits' that we talk about in MBTI do not represent everyone that identifies with their type. Built on top of that is the assumption of certain connections being critical (S:N in particular - studies show that this is marginally relevant, if relevant at all...) So, when I say idealization, I'm meaning something specific that was tested specifically - trying to relate it to specific types suffers from the same fuzzyness.

However, while not entirely predictive, studies shown that idealization of marriage and/or the person you marry has a positive correlation to length and happiness in marriage. It's not terribly surprising - going into something with optimism seems to generate a more positive outcome. Other longitudinal studies support this indirectly, with concepts before marriage playing a fairly significant role. The argument here would be that false expectations are a downside, however it doesn't seem to be a case (least as far as it relates to personality or effect). Hard to say for sure, since it's not really looked at directly... but in all of these situations, the major effect is the lack of communication. Ideals that are not communicated are an issue, as are money issues, sex issues, children issues... etc. But if you look for issues in idealization, you can find them... that doesn't mean it is endemic to a particular type, or that it is, on average, a negative thing (in and of itself). It is very likely that a forer effect can modify a marginally positive trait into a negative one simply because when identifying negative impacts, one makes the connection given the hypothesis (in this case, INFx are most unhappy), when there may be other causes.

Another interesting thing about this is that the top complaints in relationships really have very little to do with personal interaction. Most people can pair up and be happy, given that the basic framework is in place. It's issues like money, children and mate-guarding that top the list... when you regress issues, there is some connection to personality... but more interesting is if you also look at the correlations to certain types and the big three issues, you find the same correlation.

So, in my view, one has to be very careful assuming a given issue in any personality, then one must be careful assuming the explanation of the parts of the personality are responsible, and finally, one must be careful not to see the personality at fault and not the indirect effects of the personality.

(FWIW, as I remember it, ENFJs were the most positively associated (equivalent to other personality theories) to positive relationships... but keep in mind the fuzzyness I talked about above. )
 

Sarcasticus

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Hmm...I've read INTPs have the highest dissatisfaction & most problems, because of intimacy issues (not able to get close & communicate positively).
I read that in a few books my sis has discussing MBTI and relationships, but I don't remember the names...

It think it's that the other types have the highest level of dissatisfaction with INTPs. . .
 

Totenkindly

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It think it's that the other types have the highest level of dissatisfaction with INTPs. . .

exactly right.

The INFx's are dissatisfied.

The INTPs dissatisfy others.
 

Totenkindly

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One of the main problems I see when people talk about their relationships (and myself too), regardless of type, is the ability to have realistic expectations and disassemble some of the more grandiose expectations. It's really hard and we've been fed so many fairy tales of what relationships are supposed to be. -

Exactly. Unrealistic standards, I think, are the more "typical" things that torpedo the relationship ... it's usually not the big dramatic event (like a torrid affair).

... my mother has said to me if you want to be in a successful LTR you need to take a good hard look at your partners bad qualities and figure out if those are something you can deal with. Those are the things you can't really expect a person to change and how you respond to those things make or break a relationship.

Very wise, i think, based on my thinking AND on my experience.
Many inexperienced people just figure the bad stuff will go away or can be changed... and that's setting oneself up for failure.

I was reading this article yesterday about how a predictor of divorce is how bored partners are with each other. What shakes things up a bit in a LTR or marriage that keeps things growing and interesting if it's not the expectation of something different or something changing for the better? If you have no to low expectations (good or bad) yeah you're less disappointed but are you really happier and satisfied? That's just complacency and acceptance of the relational status quo.

Either that, or just accepting a standard of "status quo" in what the relationship must look like, are both killers, IMO. Both the ex and the in-laws were conventional people, with a priority of stability... so emotional closeness might be desired but is only secondary to just playing the established roles and doing your job (good ol' protestant work ethic, in context of a marriage) and not paying attention to how you're feeling about things, because feelings are irrelevant. In the end, all that matters is keeping things predictable and stable.

All the research and data I see shows that not many other married people are faring much better so eh.

The divorce rate has actually been dropping for a number of years now; and the 50% thing (in the way it's usually meant) has been debunked for some time now, Ivy just noted it the other day.
 

Winds of Thor

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1. INFPs and INFJs are the most statistically likely to marry their ESTJ / ESTP opposites. Opposite marriages tend to be the most statistically likely to be unhappy, though.

2. Many INF_s don't have very realistic expectations of how a relationship works in the real world. About once every week or three I see a post by a young INF_ who is setting themselves up for future relationship dissatisfaction.

3. INF_s usually need to learn the hard way that they need to modify their values to fit into the real world (and not the other way around). 99% of young INF_s simply aren't ready to take the advice of those that have already been there - they need to experience it and go through the pain themselves. If they happen to marry before learning this lesson...

4. Both types are prone to avoid conflict until things go "too far", at which point mending the relationship becomes an epic task. Confronting issues as soon as they occur - don't let them fester.

5. Both types can remain in a bad relationship way too long. INF_s take pride in their ability to judge people and potential, and it takes a great big bite of humble pie to admit we were wrong, or that the situation has changed and no longer fits the ideal.



true, what you are saying. but when you look at a 50% divorce rate (if that is accurate--i'm spouting what i've 'heard'), it appears all types are guilty of the aforementioned, and that the prob of infj pairing is probably a miniscule, infinitesimal part of the overall problems in relating one-on-one..



I agree 100% with 1 through 5. I also see that INFJs, in their stubborness and believing they are right, still sometimes let their dominant F combined with their values for integrity of the relationship and doing everything they can to mend it, to the death perhaps, and don't stretch to use T and see this objectively.

Projecting out an already bad relationship, one has to ask are they willing to stay in a bad relationship and bring children even, into a bad marriage. This is a snowballing, and, extrapolating this type of leverage out over time, it is foreseeable that the person takes a hard, heavy hit from introverted perception not seeing the future reality and ends in a massive, shocking, emotional, mental and whole-being engaging correction.

Its seemingly predictable as the outcome in Spielberg's Minority Report.

I wonder how willing an INFJ is to listen to an ENTP in this rock-solid thinking. Not being arrogant. Just as an INFJ knows they are right based on their intuition, but don't know why...we know we are right and we know why.

Human nature...the best is to learn all the functions and strive to do them well, catering ourselves to whatever situation as appropriate.

It's just sad. Plain sad. For an ENTP, who loves one, to see one do this to oneself. The primary feeling mode takes dominance and all other functions fall secondary, drown out perhaps. Imbalance to the extreme. Hurt.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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again, cascade, an insightful post. it's really nice to read your thoughts and know i am not alone on the relationship front. i totally hear you and understand what you are saying. i agree too, except for the divorce part. i just never gave divorce any thought, having married young, and now that there are kids, and lives, and 13 acres, and a wonderful home in the mix, i can't really consider divorce as a viable option. not that i want to, mind you......but, again, i can relate much to the growth and changing stuff.

proteanmix makes a good point for me as well, about keeping the relationship interesting and challenging, not boring. boredom is not good for me!! but there is a fine line to how much challenge and stretching a relationship can do in a short amount of time as well. sometimes hard to find that balance........but necessary IS the balance.

overall, although i am poly in a mono marriage, i am very glad i am married to my ixtj. and he allows me to sow my wild oats occasionally :devil:, which is really more than i could ask for in this world of monogamous-til-death-do-us-part marital mores.
 

karenk

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A few thoughts:

1. INFPs and INFJs are the most statistically likely to marry their ESTJ / ESTP opposites. Opposite marriages tend to be the most statistically likely to be unhappy, though.

Yikes! Yea, I could see how this wouldn't work from my pov. I would only do this under extreme duress.......say a gun pointed to my head. ha.

I see what people see as the traditional point of marriage, but I really don't see the point of this official contract binding everyone until death. The real thing would happen naturally and just continue on its own. Also, if there comes a time for it to end I think it should end. Marriage sets people up to stay together for the wrong reasons.
 

Rhapsody

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I understand and do the same thing. But the question is why talk about it? I never discuss problems if I know I don't want to hear anyone run their mouth off with their opinions...

I'm not sure if this is going to satisfactorily answer your question, but whenever I have a problem it's kind of like ... having chronic back pain (yes, this is a weird metaphor, bear with me ...). The solution might be to exercise/stretch/fix my posture/etc. If my back is hurting so badly that I can barely move, though, then first I have to get someone to massage the knots out of it and/or crack it (i.e. I have to talk to someone and get some emotional support) before I can start working on the solution.

Usually, I know which response I'm going to get from my friends when I vent--I know which friends are the back massagers and I know which ones are going to tell me that I need to do such-and-such kind of stretch to get rid of the back pain permanently. So I pick and choose who I go to according to what I need. In that respect, I think we're actually in agreement--if I know someone is going to give me advice when all I want is emotional support, then I usually won't trouble that particular person with whatever is bugging me. Likewise, if I really don't want sympathy and want a practical solution instead ... well, you get the idea!

Of course this approach wouldn't work in a marriage. Not that I am married, but I imagine that if I was and I stopped talking to my spouse about certain problems because I didn't want to hear their opinions then that would mean the marriage was in deep trouble. :shock:

Anyway ... I don't know if that helped, and it was kind of off-topic :doh:

There are a lot of good posts that have been made in this thread! *goes back to munching on them*
 

Halla74

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Aphrodite-gone-awry, Jennifer, and JewelChild,

Thank you very much for your kind words. I posted what I did out of a long journey rich with a deep personal stake in such a matter, via countless hours of research, and much costly $$$ consultation with a counselor (who is a wonderful resource for me personally, my wife, and us both). If my own experiences are of assistance to those in similar shoes I am most glad to have had the opportunity to share them here.

Peace to you all,

:hug:

-Alex
 
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