[INFJ] Too nice for your own good

[Economica]

So today at work I was talking to an INFX, who has provided consultancy services for the research project I'm managing, about a mutual acquaintance/colleague who is INFJ. Our conversation went something like this:

INFX: I don't know how we are going to handle payment?
Me: I actually don't know either. I don't even know how much you cost!
INFX: [The INFJ] handled it last year, I think.
Me: I know. We could ask him how to do it-
INFX: -and he'd tell us, but-
Me: -he's too nice for his own good. *sad head shake*
INFX: He is! I'd rather not contribute to the exploitation.
Me: I can understand that. I'll talk to the secretary and get back to you.

The exchange impels me to finally post some questions I've been bouncing around in my head for a while. The questions are directed to those INFJs (and other Fs) about whom the same could be said - that you are too nice for your own good:

Give me insight: What makes you go out of your way to service others? What is going through your head in the situations where you end up (either more or less voluntarily) being taken advantage of? Why don't you set reasonable boundaries?

Give me advice: As someone who both is naturally oblivious to non-verbal signals from others and also innocently assumes that others, like me, mean yes when they say yes and no when they say no, how do I avoid unintentionally imposing on you? (See this crazy exchange (in the second half of the post) for an example.) Obviously I can try to think twice about whether a request is reasonable or a proposal advantageous to you, but what about the cases where only you have enough information to say (i.e. because only you know how much time it will take or how much something is worth to you)?

To be explicit, I'm especially thinking of professional relations.

 

[Tiltyred]

Don't worry about it.

 

[Economica]

Don't worry about it.

Care to elaborate?

Edit: Heh, win-win, either you elaborate or by definition you're not in my target group.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I can relate a bit to the post and feel stress and pressure when required to quote prices. Part of my problem is a state of constant second guessing myself. Fear of quoting the wrong price can leave me paralyzed. I just took a gig and had to quote a price. I think about what I have set as a fair price, but a million thoughts race through my head. Is this person really poor, but still dreams of having nice music at their wedding? Are they loaded? If I quote too high will they be demoralized and without resources? If I quote too low will they lose respect? If I quote top dollar will I perform up to that standard? If I quote low will I end up regretting it? This is the worst when the pricing system is subjective to begin with. I basically see too many elements to consider instead of just making a decision about what my services are worth and quoting it without regard to the consequence. I also have some inclination to assume that two parties doing business are desiring a cooperative exchange and so if the partnership is worthwhile, then there is an inherent trust that both parties will act in fairness.

It doesn't turn out that way.

 

[Tiltyred]

*sigh*
You people won't understand even if we explain it, so ... just propose what it is you want done, and if we can do it, we will, and if we can't, sometimes we also will. Eventually, we will figure out a way to avoid you altogether if you keep making preposterous demands, so don't worry about our being taken advantage of. We might not say no, we'll just disappear when you want us. Works the same.

*this is half tongue-in-cheek, but only half*

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I actually caught myself doing something unawares in business interactions. If it is a client or employer with whom there is a potential long-term business association, I used to subconsciously give them one free shot to exploit me. I wouldn't initially stand my ground because I wanted to know who I was actually dealing with. It was a way of testing them although it was not a conscious plan. I now realize the importance of just assuming the exploitation will occur instead of hoping for a reasonable exchange of professional trust and services.

 

[Economica]

*sigh*
You people won't understand even if we explain it, so ...

Please try me?

just propose what it is you want done, and if we can do it, we will, and if we can't, sometimes we also will. Eventually, we will figure out a way to avoid you altogether if you keep making preposterous demands, so don't worry about our being taken advantage of. We might not say no, we'll just disappear when you want us. Works the same.

*this is half tongue-in-cheek, but only half*

I'm with you so far. The thing is, I don't want it to be this way; I want to be able to work with you to our mutual satisfaction. (I can see INFJ-INTJ making quite a team.) I'm capable of modifying my behavior to accommodate you and very willing to do so - I just need help understanding how, since I don't naturally read you very well.

---

toonia, thanks for your input! It's just what I'm after.

(Incidentally, the payment issue that had to be handled today was not about price (I told him from the get-go that I did not know how much he had charged last year and that we would pay whatever he asked this year) but simply about how to administrate the transfer.)

I actually caught myself doing something unawares in business interactions. If it is a client or employer with whom there is a potential long-term business association, I used to subconsciously give them one free shot to exploit me. I wouldn't initially stand my ground because I wanted to know who I was actually dealing with. It was a way of testing them although it was not a conscious plan. I now realize the importance of just assuming the exploitation will occur instead of hoping for a reasonable exchange of professional trust and services.

OMG! You actually expect people to maintain a constant focus on what your side of the transaction is like? (Oh, I am going to learn from this thread! ) Can you give an example of one such free shot?

 

[BerberElla]

I can relate a bit to the post and feel stress and pressure when required to quote prices. Part of my problem is a state of constant second guessing myself. Fear of quoting the wrong price can leave me paralyzed. I just took a gig and had to quote a price. I think about what I have set as a fair price, but a million thoughts race through my head. Is this person really poor, but still dreams of having nice music at their wedding? Are they loaded? If I quote too high will they be demoralized and without resources? If I quote too low will they lose respect? If I quote top dollar will I perform up to that standard? If I quote low will I end up regretting it? This is the worst when the pricing system is subjective to begin with. I basically see too many elements to consider instead of just making a decision about what my services are worth and quoting it without regard to the consequence. I also have some inclination to assume that two parties doing business are desiring a cooperative exchange and so if the partnership is worthwhile, then there is an inherent trust that both parties will act in fairness.

It doesn't turn out that way.

I don't know if this is the same thought process, but my ISFJ friend's business is barely pulling in any money because she feels awkward saying prices because she is worried it's too high, too low. Not sure how it goes on in her head when she does it, but she struggles too.

I'm considered too nice for my own good, but not as nice as my infj friend. Maybe it's you Ixfj types.

J/k, I get that way too.

What makes you go out of your way to service others?

A feeling of obligation sometimes because they asked, especially if they ask nicely. Or because I like them as a person and genuinelly want to go out of my way, but more often than not it's the obligated part that drives me.

What is going through your head in the situations where you end up (either more or less voluntarily) being taken advantage of?

I get sad and dissappointed with the person because I feel they are asking too much, or I feel annoyed with myself for not saying no because I've over extended myself. Of course sometimes it's motivated by a real desire and then I only have nice thoughts about it because I believe it's helping someone I care about, like or respect.

Why don't you set reasonable boundaries?

I do, I just don't enforce them all the time. I have boundaries, sometimes it feels like people see right through those boundaries and know me for the sucker I can be sometimes. A big massive neon sign on my forehead saying "take the piss, it's easy"

Instead of nipping those feelings in the bud with assertive boundaries at the start, I eventually build up alot of resentment that leads to a total refusal to work with or care for the person who has taken it too far.

As someone who both is naturally oblivious to non-verbal signals from others and also innocently assumes that others, like me, mean yes when they say yes and no when they say no, how do I avoid unintentionally imposing on you? (See this crazy exchange (in the second half of the post) for an example.) Obviously I can try to think twice about whether a request is reasonable or a proposal advantageous to you, but what about the cases where only you have enough information to say (i.e. because only you know how much time it will take or how much something is worth to you)?

I'm not sure about others but for myself I can tell if someone is unintentionally imposing on me, because it's unintentional it doesn't bother me, there is nothing about it that makes me believe I am being taken advantage of.

When it's intentional it shows me that I am not respected and it feels different so I will eventually snap.

I can't really advise you, I honestly have only ever known time to conquer this issue, once I am secure I would tell you if I felt taken advantage of.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

OMG! You actually expect people to maintain a constant focus on what your side of the transaction is like? (Oh, I am going to learn from this thread! ) Can you give an example of one such free shot?

My first gig with an orchestra he approached me to play for the group and discussed their pricing system openly in front of me. I didn't nail down an exact fee. The price he talked about was $50 per service. The musicians' union fee for my instrument is a minimum of $100 plus $25 cartage per service. He asked if I belonged to the union. I didn't. I was working on a master's degree in my instrument at the time. He knew the pricing schedules. It was his profession.

When I got my check he had paid me $15 (edit) per service and paid only half that for rehearsals on which I didn't play the entire time. The musicians' minimum recommended fee (you have to be paid this if you are a member) for the rehearsals and concert would have totaled $600. He paid me $45. He knew this. I would have worked for half the union's recommended minimum. His willingness to exploit my services allowed me to immediately know for whom I would have been working. I resigned.

Because I maintain as much awareness as possible of the other person's knowledge and needs, my reaction is reasonable if the exploitation occurs within reason. I should also note I have stopped doing this. It wasn't conscious.

Edit: I have played for groups accepting various fees based on their budget. If I am paid an honest wage in the context of their resources, then I accept or continue to work for them. Attempts at being tricked or exploited tell me who to avoid professionally. Fees in my field are subjective because it is such a struggling profession for everyone. Success requires mutual support and respect which include exchange of fair services and fees within the context of limited resources. This can easily become twisted into inflated entitlement and exploitation. It is helpful to distinguish the difference, but better to explore it head-on.

 

[Into It]

Give me advice: As someone who both is naturally oblivious to non-verbal signals from others and also innocently assumes that others, like me, mean yes when they say yes and no when they say no, how do I avoid unintentionally imposing on you? (See this crazy exchange (in the second half of the post) for an example.) Obviously I can try to think twice about whether a request is reasonable or a proposal advantageous to you, but what about the cases where only you have enough information to say (i.e. because only you know how much time it will take or how much something is worth to you)?

To be explicit, I'm especially thinking of professional relations.

Your Te makes it sound like you're TELLING people what to do. And indeed you are. There's nothing wrong with this, but an NF who could be taken advantage of will DO IT if you make a Te statement. So preface such statements with phrases like: "It doesn't matter either way", "it's entirely up to you, but I think it would be best if..." These phrases will at the very least make the NF feel as if he is not really being taken advantage of so much. And if you can achieve this, the relationship will be symbiotic and positive.
But you INTJ's are totally oblivious to nonverbal cues. I'm in a cabin with 3 INTJs at the moment and everyone needs me to spell everything out because my eyes seem to tell them nothing!

 

[Tiltyred]

I think the issue is, we want people to act right because they want to act right, and not for any other reason. We don't want to deal with people we have to force to act right.

I let out rope the same way, Toonia. Sometimes I just go along, just to see how far they will take it, just so I can see for myself how far they will go before their own conscience or value system kicks in. Sometimes it's worth money just to watch the process.

"the crazy exchange" doesn't seem crazy to me. It will be less formal as you go along, but you get treated with kid gloves while we're examining you. We don't want to disturb your natural process.

So don't worry about taking advantage of us. We're not as dumb as we look. If it gets to be too much, we will find a way to make it stop without having to have a confrontation.

 

[runvardh]

I figure act within what is reasonable for you or with slightly more allowence. The issue really is something that we have to work on with ourselves and being reasonable with ourselves. With out asking specifically about our situation and our feelings on it (while demanding we be honest) you're not going to get the extra information needed to really help out.

 

[Economica]

BerberElla and IntoIt, thanks also to you for chiming in!

I'm not sure about others but for myself I can tell if someone is unintentionally imposing on me, because it's unintentional it doesn't bother me, there is nothing about it that makes me believe I am being taken advantage of.

Your distinction here as well as toonia's orchestra story is making me think I'm kind of like a parent worrying about whether I will do a good job of bringing up the kids: Just by reflecting on my actions and trying to act with integrity and being aware that some people don't function quite like I do, maybe I'm already doing fine and making too big a deal out of minor glitches in my communication with INFJs.

Your Te makes it sound like you're TELLING people what to do. And indeed you are. There's nothing wrong with this, but an NF who could be taken advantage of will DO IT if you make a Te statement. So preface such statements with phrases like: "It doesn't matter either way", "it's entirely up to you, but I think it would be best if..." These phrases will at the very least make the NF feel as if he is not really being taken advantage of so much. And if you can achieve this, the relationship will be symbiotic and positive.

Useful advice and an illuminating explanation of why it works - do you know how to work an INTJ! Thanks!

But you INTJ's are totally oblivious to nonverbal cues. I'm in a cabin with 3 INTJs at the moment and everyone needs me to spell everything out because my eyes seem to tell them nothing!

They really don't.

---

Tiltyred, thanks for expounding!

I think the issue is, we want people to act right because they want to act right, and not for any other reason. We don't want to deal with people we have to force to act right.

Once again I'm with you.

What about the distinction between unintentional vs. intentional exploitation that the others have put their finger on - how forgiving are you of wrongdoing due to obliviousness?

(Do any of you have experience with well-meaning but dense NTJs on this score?)

"the crazy exchange" doesn't seem crazy to me. It will be less formal as you go along, but you get treated with kid gloves while we're examining you. We don't want to disturb your natural process.

Can you read into it and tell me what he actually preferred? I still have no clue.

---

I figure act within what is reasonable for you or with slightly more allowence. The issue really is something that we have to work on with ourselves and being reasonable with ourselves. With out asking specifically about our situation and our feelings on it (while demanding we be honest) you're not going to get the extra information needed to really help out.

Thanks for chiming in, runvardh! I don't take it you recommend doing this in the workplace though? (I do it with my INFJ friend, and that works. I think. He still wants to be my friend, anyway. )

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I think what it comes down to for me is that I'd rather be ripped off than rip someone else off. That's in situations where the waters are a little murky. It doesn't apply in situations where I know/strongly suspect someone else is trying to rip me off.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Your distinction here as well as toonia's orchestra story is making me think I'm kind of like a parent worrying about whether I will do a good job of bringing up the kids: Just by reflecting on my actions and trying to act with integrity and being aware that some people don't function quite like I do, maybe I'm already doing fine and making too big a deal out of minor glitches in my communication with INFJs.

I've always considered part of my skill set as an INFJ is to be able to communicate by focusing on the core of the communication and not requiring a specific style and presentation of delivery. Because of this I have tended to have easy interactions with people who many consider too blunt or direct. If it is reasonable to assume a benign intent based on the history of the person's actions, then it is almost impossible to offend me. If there is deception and malice demonstrated, then the blazing compliments feel like insults.

INFJs do value honesty and so this can reasonably take precedence over style.

 

[runvardh]

What about the distinction between unintentional vs. intentional exploitation that the others have put their finger on - how forgiving are you of wrongdoing due to obliviousness?

If it looks like you're oblivious some of us wiser/more mature ones will try and help out.

(Do any of you have experience with well-meaning but dense NTJs on this score?)

I don't feel I've ever been exploited by an INTJ. I've only dealt with two IRL and only the one I worked with asked for things, all of which where quite reasonable.

Thanks for chiming in, runvardh. I don't take it you recommend doing this in the workplace though? (I do it with my INFJ friend, and that works. I think. He still wants to be my friend, anyway. )

Eh, it all depends on how the professional relationship is. It could come across as talking down to him. I suppose you could keep track of how many times he sighs in a minute; more than once confirm the terms?

 

[Economica]

I have to be off to bed now, but one final question for the evening: Any tips for an elevator speech about how I work (Te, well-meaning, and obliviousness rolled into one) that I could offer e.g. to the INFJ of the OP and the 'crazy exchange' next time an occasion arises? (And would it be a good idea to volunteer such information, do you think?)

 

[Phantonym]

Ok. I haven't read the other posts here, so...sorry if I'm repeating something already said.

Give me insight: What makes you go out of your way to service others? What is going through your head in the situations where you end up (either more or less voluntarily) being taken advantage of? Why don't you set reasonable boundaries?

Personally, sometimes I just like the idea of being helpful. I cannot call it being altruistic, but if I can help somebody make something better or feel better, then...I feel better. I hate feeling that I could have done something and I didn't and something went wrong. :hi: control freak

I also do it to test people. I do expect that they do something for me in return. If they don't, then I'll just know.
This doesn't actually keep me from doing them favours. I'll just know not to expect anything in return. Come to think of it, it is kind of sad to get a confirmation of something I already suspected of them. Or maybe I do it to get some masochistic pleasure from getting the confirmation that people are really only after personal gain. So, it is personal gain for both parties involved.

 

[Apollanaut]

I have been called "too nice for my own good" on many occasions. I always start out by assuming that other people have good intentions, and will offer help, advice or other support where it seems appropriate.

However, I have been burned very badly in the past by people taking advantage of my good nature. One supposedly close friend made my life hell for years - in retrospect, she knew exactly how to work me and get me to do what she wanted. I don't respond to bullying or aggressive behaviour, but I used to be a sucker for a polite request or an emotional appeal. This woman finally went too far and started using emotional blackmail. I ended up telling her exactly what I thought of her behaviour, which was the last thing she expected from me and the beginning of the end of our friendship.

I am much more assertive now, but mostly I keep my tough side in reserve, as I usually get much better results by being agreeable and persuasive. My greatest discovery was that Fe can work both ways - as well as picking up on other's wants and needs, we can project our own feelings outwards to influence others very powerfully.

When I'm speaking from the heart, there is no need for too much Fe "niceness" or avoidance of tricky subjects, I can be completely honest and open about my needs, ideas and beliefs, but without offending, commanding or attempting to control others. It's hard to describe this type of Feeling communication in words, but when you see it in action, its power is undeniable.

A good example might be Barack Obama - when he gives a speech about something he cares about, he comes across as sincere and passsionate and people respond in huge numbers. I guess you'd call it charisma.

Now I have more choice about whether or not to offer help or support to others. Still, if I see someone in obvious pain or distress, I feel a powerful pull towards them, to offer my help or simply a listening ear or a shoulder to cry on. I guess it's not entirely altruistic, because there is a genuine reward for helping others in an appropriate fashion. When I succeed in helping someone solve a dilemma, or help to lift their mood or see them smile, I get a huge surge of positive feelings in response. This type of feeling can stay with me for a long time afterwards, and is much more satisfying than simply gratifying my own needs.

 

[Amargith]

It's a mix for me. I loooveee helping people out. Their gratitude is my reward. Consequently..I'll avoid you if you do not appreciate it or take me for granted.

Also, I'm not of this world. Quite literally. Though I can read people, I don't keep up with social convention. Which means that if you come to me with an attitude that it is quite reasonable for you to 'demand' this particular thing from me, I'll automatically oblige as it seems like the normal convention in society to do, especially if I'm in a new job or new situation. I'm...working on this one though

Next, I'm hardwired to help people. Why would I deny anyone anything that I can provide and they need? That's just...willfully evil in my book. Sure it can be a small inconvenience to me, but it seems important to you. Why wouldn't I help you out? I kinda assume you'd do the same for me, but if you have a good reason as to why you cannot help me, I'll understand perfectly well as well.

Ultimately, to me it's about keeping good relations with the person. Refusing a favor seems like a stupid reason to let bonds die. And yes, I realize that sometimes I should set boundaries but I just..don't
Give me harmony over potential conflict any day.

What can you do? If I seem stressed or frown when you ask me, assume that it's a bad time to ask me for a favor. Don't let this stop you though if it is in fact important. Typically I'll need more than a second to say that I can do it as well, as I'll need to rearrange my schedule. Afterwards, appreciate what I did for you. And if you notice me struggling with something at any given time, offer to help out, or be open to me asking you for help.

Other than that, I enjoy helping you out. So don't feel bad about it