[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

[PeaceBaby]

Hey you just edited your post above too just as I was going to reply - cheater!

(Came in for some string and saw your addition.)

You bet your ass that was an assumption I just made. (Actually it was more like conjecture or extrapolation, but whatever.)

Congrats on picking it up.

 

[PeaceBaby]

This is the point. Everyone does make assumptions. It's the moral conviction which will not listen to reason that can be hard to swallow.

This is a great sentence btw. And you are right; we are creatures full of assumptions, ALL.

Let me turn around part of your quotation above for fun and reflection even:

It's the logical conviction that will not take into account the human element that can be hard to swallow.

 

[Sentura]

Saying it three times doesn't make it any truer.

what, that you make assumptions about NFs? care to reread your old posts?

 

[heart]

They do that all the time. It's so embarrassing. They tend to see and judge everything in terms of purity of motivation.

The worst part about it is that they made an implicit moral judgment about how it's acceptable to collect information that other people might not share. Even if he is doing that, it doesn't hurt anyone.

This is why the NTs always win. I tell you, they're holding us back.

(Yes, I'm generalizing very, very badly. The nature of type tends to require that.)

And don't forget my similar little exchange with PeaceBaby.

NFP: (points out possibility that OP is farming for material)
NFJ: You're making us look stupid by looking at everything in terms of purity!
NFP: No, those are your values. You interpreted my comment as being within that moral framework, so it must be your own.
NFJ: Those aren't my values, it's just that you having those values was just the only reason I could think of you would say that. So if neither of us has those values, then we've both misconstrued each other. Great, we're both idiots. The NTs are right about us.
NFP: No, we're not. Everyone reads motivations into things. NTs aren't as smart as people think, anyway.

So, it doesn't just happen between NF and NT...

What with the "us" and being embrassed by the actions of other feelers? Are we individuals here or a many headed hydra? Why should you be embrassed by the actions of other people? To me that sounds like too close an association between type (which is just an artificial construct) and true self.

I also don't understand this "NT always win." There is no winning or losing here. There is no right or wrong. People are just discussing differences of seeing the world.

If AO really wants to learn about people to get along with them better, then it does him good to see the reactions of NF to his declaration that he's probing/provoking him for information. It doesn't mean he is capable of "getting" why they react the way they do or if he even cares, but at least he gets the oppurtunity to see raw, live reactions to his thoughts. Online interaction does that for a person in an honest and priceless way.

..

 

[Amargith]

Maybe us NFs should let this thread die? Let them fight each other a bit? I dunno, it doesn't seem like anything productive will come out of this as much as we try. Don't think they're interested in actually furthering understanding. All I've seen is whining about how we're illogical, oversensitive and judgemental really.

But, if you're able to get through to them, kudos, really!

 

[nozflubber]

I think this thread thread should be stapled to the front page!! IT IS IMMORTAL

 

[Athenian200]

What with the "us" and being embrassed by the actions of other feelers? Are we individuals here or a many headed hydra? Why should you be embrassed by the actions of other people?

We're individuals, but we're seen as a many-headed hydra by others. Blanket statements are often made about "NFs" being a certain way. Since we're judged as a group, I want to influence the perception of that group in a positive way (or rather avoid letting it be influenced in a negative way).

I also don't understand this "NT always win." There is no winning or losing here. There is no right or wrong. People are just discussing differences of seeing the world.

That's a good point. It's just that the NTs tend to correctly tear apart more shoddy arguments made by NFs in a thread than the other way around, and they get an easy victory with some of the things certain NFPs (not you, your insights are pretty good) say. Some of them feel like they've "won" because of this, and sometimes I get a little jealous of their "victory."

It's probably a Te/Fe thing for the most part. You're probably too good a person to understand such feelings. :blushing:

 

[heart]

We're individuals, but we're seen as a many-headed hydra by others. Blanket statements are often made about "NFs" being a certain way. Since we're judged as a group, I want to influence the perception of that group in a positive way.

The onus is on those judging us as one body, not us. And the world will always find a way to judge. There's nothing that can be done about that, but don't have to let it define us as individuals.

That's a good point. It's just that the NTs tend to correctly tear apart more shoddy arguments made by NFs in a thread than the other way around, and they get an easy victory with some of the things certain NFPs (not you, your insights are pretty good) say. Some of them feel like they've "won" because of this, and sometimes I get a little jealous of their "victory."

There's no victory to be had here though. It's not about winning or losing, it's all just expression of point of view. They may "feel" like they've "won" but that's just their viewpoint, it means nothing beyond their own mind and point of view.

It's probably a Te/Fe thing for the most part. You're probably too good a person to understand such feelings. :blushing:

I doubt I am too good but rather I refuse to let others define the terms of my experience and I hope that they won't let me define their terms either.

...

 

[Athenian200]

The onus is on those judging us as one body, not us. And the world will always find a way to judge. There's nothing that can be done about that, but don't have to let it define us as individuals.

Yeah, I know that deep down... but sometimes I just get sick of being accused of things because of what people similar to me only in a very broad way do.

There's no victory to be had here though. It's not about winning or losing, it's all just expression of point of view. They may "feel" like they've "won" but that's just their viewpoint, it means nothing beyond their own mind and point of view.

True... but I have a tendency to unconsciously adopt (or try to adopt) another's point of view when communicating with them. I guess it's just hard for me not to care about the other person's mind and point of view, because they might be seeing something I don't that's important.

I doubt I am too good but rather I refuse to let others define the terms of my experience and I hope that they won't let me define their terms either.

...

You're very stubborn and able to insist on viewing things in terms of self-expression even when the environment is set up to view them in terms of debate. That's rather interesting...

 

[Moiety]

When NTs make assumptions, they tend to a) state them and b) don't feel personally invested in them. They are willing to sacrifice those assumptions as more information becomes available.

Shall we then monitor the behavior of NTs to see if they fit that...assumption of yours, and see if it's true?

Obviously we'd need some sort of subjective criteria to try and detect an NTs personal investment....I mean, it's not like NTs are capable of "sore thumb" drama...and we all know drama is the only real means of expressing personal investment....it might be reaaally tricky...

 

[Virtual ghost]

First I want to thank everybody for reminding me why I don't socialize more often.

Also I must say that most of you are acting like children in this thread. If you want to lead your private little wars you have visitor massage and PMs and I mean it.



Since I am the only NTJ around I will try to make something out of this thread.

Ok, I will make a new start.
But this time I will make more concrete qestions what should help preventing things from turning into useless arguing.


I am wondering if NF can sense a deficit of empathy in other people even if it is not really obvious. Or do you just have hunches that are sometimes right and sometimes wrong? Do you feel intimidated in te presence of that person even if everything works fine in the communication ?

Feel free to use your experiances.

 

[heart]

^ Dude, it's an open message board. A thread starter has very little control over how their threads go, unless it is in the personal threads or blogs areas. If you socialize, you won't get very far demanding to dictate the terms of interaction.

 

[MacGuffin]

NFs STFU!

 

[Domino]

Gee whiz, Heart! I don't understand you AT ALL!! You're so irrational!! And smell of sugary lemons in a way that pleases me!! Don't all your threads go in a lateral direction?! MINE DO. All of 4,904,576 of them! That's right! The black hole of my massive intellect has no event horizon!!

*ahem*

As to the other questions, yes, I can tell when I'm dealing with a "lizard". T functions, even strongly so, does NOT equal "no empathy" or feeling. Near psychopathism or cognitive impairment, that's different. And I can tell when I have one of those on my hands immediately (read: Uncanny valley). I don't get intimidated. I circle around, determine the level of threat, and then divest myself of such personages as soon as possible.

Like now. *sprays for clownz*

 

[Salomé]

you have visitor massage

I'm moving to Croatia! I like the sound of your hospitality!

 

[Domino]

I'm massaging Blue Monday at this very moment!

 

[Amargith]

*hands pink some oil*

 

[Domino]

I'm sprinkling Amargith with tasty steak sauce at this very moment!

 

[heart]

Gee whiz, Heart! I don't understand you AT ALL!! You're so irrational!! And smell of sugary lemons in a way that pleases me!! Don't all your threads go in a lateral direction?! MINE DO. All of 4,904,576 of them! That's right! The black hole of my massive intellect has no event horizon!!

*ahem*

As to the other questions, yes, I can tell when I'm dealing with a "lizard". T functions, even strongly so, does NOT equal "no empathy" or feeling. Near psychopathism or cognitive impairment, that's different. And I can tell when I have one of those on my hands immediately (read: Uncanny valley). I don't get intimidated. I circle around, determine the level of threat, and then divest myself of such personages as soon as possible.

Like now. *sprays for clownz*

Yes, agree. I think there's an issue that the thinker profile might draw some people who lack empathy to label themselves as thinker, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily all that in their logic nor that thinkers as a whole lack empathy. Socialized psychopathy does not necessarily equate with thinker.

 

[Amargith]

I'm sprinkling Amargith with tasty steak sauce at this very moment!

*Opens the bottle and showers Pink in oil *

All I need now is a volunteer to massage you...Anyone?