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[MBTI General] Why NFs think that they understand NTs ?

Salomé

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Keirsey didn't create the temperaments, though. All possible temperament combinations exist, those four are simply the most popular. He simply chose the four organizing principles that he thought were best, which were influenced by his knowledge of the Greek humors (Sanguine=SP, Melancholic=SJ, Phlegmatic=NT, Choleric=NF).

In fact, the original four temperaments that Myers came up with were SF, ST, NT, and NF. So NTs and NFs would be here without him, he just reorganized Sensors. I would like to note that I'm not sure Keirsey's approach is the best (though it's not the worst).
I think maybe you took me a little too seriously. In any event, you missed the point. Which was that NTs are capable of understanding and are interested in human beings too. We just generally have a more impersonal approach.

The only things I've seen you write that struck me as really odd are things such as preferring to eat in the dark, and the only reason is because almost no one does that.
I do. :ninja:

Then at one point I just felt like an object to her, all she wanted was sex sex sex sex sex. I felt like a slave! I had to do what she wanted, when she wanted it, how she liked it, I told her she was clinically paranoid and ended it. I don't claim to understand NT's I just let them be in their logical ways and I always let INTJ's and INTP's think they are right even though sometimes they aren't.
Finally! Someone who understands me!!
 

Amargith

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To you they probably are but to me those two are something quite similar.
I mean why making a scene if you understand me.
But I am open towards the possibility that my picture is incomplete.

Because understanding someone and where they come from emotionally, doesn't mean that you agree, that you see eye to eye on them with this. Sometimes you're also torn between your own inner values and emotions they invoke and understanding the person who's violating them. And sometimes we understand that you're feeling something that motivates you to do something...but we're unsure as to the reason why and the intensity of it and want to verify if we do get what you're saying/feeling. Which results in questions from our side, or 'guesses' followed by our own thoughts on the matter, which can then result in defensiveness and miscommunication unfortunately aka a scene.


Typical NF argument.
It does not matter if NTs can this or that. The point is that NFs are more likely to fail in this then they would like to admit.
Which is not a big deal.

Sigh. I'm merely using it to give you a frame of reference, so you can relate. If you wanna point a finger, that's fine, but the fact is that all people are guilty of this in some way or another, even you. I was hoping that if you recognized it in yourself, you'd understand why it happens in NFs as well.

Well if majority of NFs (Fs) thinks this way then it is trully obvious why we have problem in comunication.

The things is I AM my subjects for the most part.
I have already made posts about this.
The problems can appear because you think that we like something because we do this or that often.

You have no idea how many problems I have in life because I don't have a clear opinion about something. Which is because of my underdeveloped Fi. Sometimes you just have to make a choice and nither option seems as really good to you. So in the end you make your chioce which is something you don't care about. But large amount of people will presume that you identify with your choice. When it comes to simple everyday choices I don't know what to do. So make a temporery value system so that I can just continues with my life by making a choice.
You are saying that you are dating INTJ I am sure that you have encountered "apathy" plenty of times. I am the same, it is just that this tendency is more expressed in me.

I admit that this is something I often say/write without thinking about it because for me the reason to do something is because I get some advantage and pleasure out of it. Now, this is true for many NTs as well, but from what I've been told it's not always that intense or important. It's also one of those things that constantly intrigues me about NTs, as it's hard to describe their 'drive' to do something sometimes. Maybe satisfaction is a better word? Or maybe sense of accomplishment? And yes, I do get the same 'I-don't-care' answer sometimes from my SO. If I push him to choose, he'll take the most logical option. Note though, that when i get this 'apathy' reading from him, I ask. And yes, it used to drive me up the wall that he could have no opinion/show no emotions whatsoever when faced with a choice. It was also very educational and intriguing. It's something I find very perculiar as I don't function that way, so it took me some time to grasp it. I always thought I was missing something, not paying attention enough etc. However, he does also *enjoy* things and those clues are very clear.
 

entropie

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[...]because for me the reason to do something is because I get some advantage and pleasure out of it. [...]

I always wonder if its only the formulation you suck at or my understanding of it. Cause I know you are not that kind of person.
 

Athenian200

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I think maybe you took me a little too seriously. In any event, you missed the point. Which was that NTs are capable of understanding and are interested in human beings too. We just generally have a more impersonal approach.

Well, I already knew that before you said anything. You study everything, and human nature is obviously a subject of study. I was just pointing out that you can't credit Keirsey's insight for the popularity of the NT and NF temperaments. So, your main point was the obvious statement rather than the dubious claim? That's somewhat unexpected.
 

Salomé

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So, your main point was the obvious statement rather than the dubious claim? That's somewhat unexpected.
:p
It may have been obvious to you, but apparently it wasn't to Sy, to whom my comments were addressed.

Sytpg said:
I'm saying, in theory, NFs are inherently better suited to understand NTs as people than the other way around. And I'm also saying that, in theory, NFs are inherently better suited to understand people in general than any T.
 

banjomike

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Aren't we all a little "emotionally handicapped" ? Yes, yes we are. I really don't know what to say about the emotional state of either type. Sometimes I think this is all bull. However, I am typed as an INFP and I connect more strongly with other NF types. @%*# if I ever knew what to do with my STJ partners. I tell you what...

P.P.- pointless post
 

Amargith

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I always wonder if its only the formulation you suck at or my understanding of it. Cause I know you are not that kind of person.

Sigh...for some reason people seem to interpret what I say in the worst possible way at times. As for that statement, it's the honest truth. Ethology teaches us that every animal will do this. Motivation stems from 'getting a good feeling (safe, comforting, whatever) or gaining some advantage in displaying a certain type of behavior. It's natural and I'm not ashamed to say I do the same. And maybe I should everytime mention that of course I wouldn't display said behavior if it were to conflict with my values (as it will automatically make me feel bad and ruin the motivation for it anyways).

But I personally don't think of that when I say such things. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt myself, and try to interpret such statements in the context of who I know them to be. And I guess I make the mistake of not realizing others don't do the same. (and yes, this can easily read as a passive aggressive statement and no it's not meant that way, it's just an observation).
 

Manimal

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I think some NF's could be better at it than others, also some NT's could be harder to read. its not black and white.

what i would like to know, speaking in generalities, is if its possible that NT's dislike not being a bit of a mystery? do INT's and ENT's differ in this at all?
 

Virtual ghost

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I think some NF's could be better at it than others, also some NT's could be harder to read. its not black and white.

what i would like to know, speaking in generalities, is if its possible that NT's dislike not being a bit of a mystery? do INT's and ENT's differ in this at all?

1. True


2. I don't know about the others but I am always coming as a mysterious and I always had. (in real life)
Which I simply because I am that kind of a person and I think that less "mysticism" and creating stronger social bounds would be quite beneficial for me.
 

Synapse

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Why NF's think they understand NT's better...because who else is going to understand NT's better than NF's you fluffy logicians, you're so predictable. Intuitively speaking picking up on the direction, logically speaking because you are logically minded and hence have certain sequential structures that are easier to interpret than not. If there is a coin for every time I understood my NT family is a coin every time they tried to force me to think like them.
 

vince

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I guess the theory is that since NTs are emotionally handicapped, NFs are able to empathize and understand our feelings better than we can understand them ourselves.

Very true imho.

I think my INTJ dad is glad he's got me in times when emotions take the upper hand cause NT's feel uneasy when dealing with that sort of things, eventhough they must, cause it's unavoidable. Like the death of relatives for instance. Some things you just can't rationalize.

And NFs certainly need T's around to keep it all in check.

Bottom line we all need eachother.
 

Domino

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I think some NF's could be better at it than others, also some NT's could be harder to read. its not black and white.

what i would like to know, speaking in generalities, is if its possible that NT's dislike not being a bit of a mystery? do INT's and ENT's differ in this at all?

It's at least partly true. Whenever I hear that "You don't understand me! I'm a giant enigma!" talk from NTs of my association, I just shake my head and say, "Sure. Sure. Okay. You're a mysterious conundrum, Sphinxy. Whatever."

I don't go around telling them what to think or wear or feel, and I don't yank this information out of them. I'm simply reflecting back the things they themselves have volunteered, and the immature ones don't enjoy that (I think because they didn't realize that they were making their "inner world" so obvious to someone else or that their "inner world" could possibly be something another person could instinctively grasp with little effort...)

I've heard it most from NTPs. The NTJs I know don't seem to put any weight or value on that sort of thing - in fact, they seem pleased that the people they care about have put forth the effort to get to know them. I think it makes them feel uniquely loved, whereas the Ps seem to want to believe they're unknowable ad infinitum. This isn't all Ps, or even all NTPs (as I know several who also like to be "predicted" on some level because it means I'm paying attention to their subtler cues...).

Sorry, Mysterios of the world. You're only a human being. You have patterns like the rest of us. Constantly spinning around won't make you different or mysterious, just dizzy.
 

Spartacuss

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Why NF's think they understand NT's better...because who else is going to understand NT's better than NF's
Other NTs? They are intuitvies, too.

what i would like to know, speaking in generalities, is if its possible that NT's dislike not being a bit of a mystery? do INT's and ENT's differ in this at all?
No, what happens is that I think I'm straightforward and others think I'm a puzzle.
Some people are uneasy at dealing with you unless they can allot you to one of their boxes. So, they become frustrated that you dare to tell them their conclusions are wrong - especially if they consider reading people a strength - and complain that you are trying to be mysterious. It's lovely though when they take the time to sit and talk and really understand instead of trying to fit a pretty uncomplicated square peg into a round hole then complaining that you are trying to be mysterious.
 

ajblaise

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I think some NF's could be better at it than others, also some NT's could be harder to read. its not black and white.

what i would like to know, speaking in generalities, is if its possible that NT's dislike not being a bit of a mystery? do INT's and ENT's differ in this at all?

It's at least partly true. Whenever I hear that "You don't understand me! I'm a giant enigma!" talk from NTs of my association, I just shake my head and say, "Sure. Sure. Okay. You're a mysterious conundrum, Sphinxy. Whatever."

I don't go around telling them what to think or wear or feel, and I don't yank this information out of them. I'm simply reflecting back the things they themselves have volunteered, and the immature ones don't enjoy that (I think because they didn't realize that they were making their "inner world" so obvious to someone else or that their "inner world" could possibly be something another person could instinctively grasp with little effort...)

I've heard it most from NTPs. The NTJs I know don't seem to put any weight or value on that sort of thing - in fact, they seem pleased that the people they care about have put forth the effort to get to know them. I think it makes them feel uniquely loved, whereas the Ps seem to want to believe they're unknowable ad infinitum. This isn't all Ps, or even all NTPs (as I know several who also like to be "predicted" on some level because it means I'm paying attention to their subtler cues...).

Sorry, Mysterios of the world. You're only a human being. You have patterns like the rest of us. Constantly spinning around won't make you different or mysterious, just dizzy.

I don't know that I need to be mysterious, but I do really dislike being transparent. Especially when I'm not even sure of the meaning of what I'm doing. I guess that's the same as being mysterious, though.. but I have reasons!
 

Domino

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I find inadvertent transparency to be painful myself. My sister can see through me pretty well, which I find very uncomfortable, but at least I know she's not going to judge me about it. I don't live on the surface easily.

Hey, there, AJ, I can see your DNA strand. It's rather twisty and large. I didn't want to say it, but I felt that it was my duty to point it out.
 

Domino

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C'mon! Man up! lol You wanted the ladies to see it!
 

ajblaise

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Yeah but it contains vital and valuable information!
 

Synapse

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Other NTs? They are intuitives, too.

Yes true intuition is a part of how NT's and NF's function and in some ways both have their vulnerabilities to deal with however emotions and feelings are a lot more unpredictable than logical thinking. In that respect that it becomes easier to see the straight line thinking because its consistent and usually tends to deviate under stress.

Reading between the lines is much easier and can cut to the chase sooner, while seeing the pattern recognition is of itself intuitive interpreting emotions is much harder to do than interpreting logical processes.

Also depends how developed either preference is, say the more logically inclined are easier to read than borderline or well developed preference for both thinking and feeling functions.
 

Amargith

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It's at least partly true. Whenever I hear that "You don't understand me! I'm a giant enigma!" talk from NTs of my association, I just shake my head and say, "Sure. Sure. Okay. You're a mysterious conundrum, Sphinxy. Whatever."

I don't go around telling them what to think or wear or feel, and I don't yank this information out of them. I'm simply reflecting back the things they themselves have volunteered, and the immature ones don't enjoy that (I think because they didn't realize that they were making their "inner world" so obvious to someone else or that their "inner world" could possibly be something another person could instinctively grasp with little effort...)

I've heard it most from NTPs. The NTJs I know don't seem to put any weight or value on that sort of thing - in fact, they seem pleased that the people they care about have put forth the effort to get to know them. I think it makes them feel uniquely loved, whereas the Ps seem to want to believe they're unknowable ad infinitum. This isn't all Ps, or even all NTPs (as I know several who also like to be "predicted" on some level because it means I'm paying attention to their subtler cues...).

Sorry, Mysterios of the world. You're only a human being. You have patterns like the rest of us. Constantly spinning around won't make you different or mysterious, just dizzy.

It's interesting that you say that. I have the same experience, and I thought it might be because of a Fe/Fi difference or misunderstanding in communication, which, if true, would be the opposite for you. I'm kinda intrigued as to why that is though. Why is it that NTJs usually have no qualms with this and NTPs often do?
 
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