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[ENFJ] I really need some help with my ENFJ mom (long post warning)

Lauren Ashley

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It's not that I literally don't understand, it's just that I can't accept why anyone would be that way.

It comes natural to her. Fe is her dominant function and she trusts it. You want her to rationalize her feelings and not be so "dramatic," but that is much harder for her to do.
 

BlackCat

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It comes natural to her. Fe is her dominant function and she trusts it. You want her to rationalize her feelings and not be so "dramatic," but that is much harder for her to do.

Yeah I know. I know that, but it doesn't really resonate well with me.
 

BlackCat

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Why though? Not trying to pry, but I want to understand.

I just don't get why someone would get so pissy about not getting gifts... It's beyond me. Or how someone can get offended so much about the context, and when they do they disregard the meaning. It's an opposite point of view for me.
 

Wonkavision

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If you're familiar with styles of love, my mom is a primary gift giver (of course), and secondary acts of service. I'm a primary quality time, and a secondary physical touch. We are totally different in this aspect.

I really don't know why she feels this way or why any of this means so much to her. I understand logically, but I'm not "getting" it.

What do you people think? I would really appreciate another viewpoint on this, I don't know what to do.

Well......

I checked out the "styles of love" thing from various sources online and its pretty interesting stuff.

It seems like the basic idea is that, if you love someone and you know what their "love style" or "love language" is, then you should basically cater to their wants/needs/expectations---(even if, on some level, you think their wants/needs/expectations are absurd.)

Of course, that inevitably involves sacrificing your own comfort/natural inclinations (or possibly even values, in some cases).

I have a bit of a problem with that myself, so I'm not exactly recommending it, but I think its legitimate food for thought.

I mean, when it comes between your own needs and someone else's, how do you decide which ones are more important?

(I don't know about you, but I have Enneatype 2 tendencies, so this is a big issue for me.)

Ultimately, I think there's a fine line between altruism and a sick preoccupation with self-sacrifice so I guess it would be a matter of balance.

I have no idea how to strike that balance but, again---its just food for thought.

;)
 

A Schnitzel

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Do you think it would help patch things up? : / My friends are about fed up with me not calling them, not partaking in group events, etc.

It might. I would generally avoid racking up the medical bills for this sort of situation.

When your friends whine distract them by saying "nice face".
Then say "I'll come when your parties get more interesting".

After this you can casually slip suggestions in to conversations as to how said social events could be improved (for your benefit). You'd be surprised open they are to suggestions.

I have no advice for the telephone situation since I never pick up the phone anyway.
 

CzeCze

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Hey Black Cat, I'm not ENFX but as an ENFP who has had and has close friendships and dating relationships with INXP - I'll say diplomatically that you are not able to see eye to eye. But that labelling someone else's emotions as 'irrational' - especially from an INFP - to me seems ironic and particularly unproductive in a personal relationship that will never change (you will always be your mother's son). I have found through experience that sometimes you INXPs can be really stubborn and stuck on being correct and unable to really put yourself in someone's shoes, even with your Ne.

Emotions don't have to make sense in themselves, they always lead you in the right direction back to intent like you say, though.

She basically feels like she put herself out there for you in buying you the flowers and your response - while you don't characterize it as 'rejection' - IS a rejection for her. Because you obviously felt uncomfortable or baffled by it and you yourself say that you didn't want it - it made you uncomfortable because you saw it as an obligation or something else she could hang over you.

You didn't "get" it immediately and accept immediately simply a sign that she is going a little above and beyond for you - because loving someone means going above in beyond in tangible object-specific demonstrative ways and she loves you.

It was definitely symbolic of you rejecting her or rebuffing her show of love.


Basically, she is gonna think you didn't even "care" enough to recognize what it means for her to do this for her, and in a way, she's right

I guess I'm in the minority here because you sound a little cold and closed-off to really relating to your mom at least even in your OP. I'm not judging, I'm sure there are many other stories and really a long history of misunderstandings and frustrations that bring you to this point (and I know that Fi, once it feels threatened or under attack will retreat and hold its ground)

Just wanted to point out that you even broke out type personality theory and the love-style theory - if you were to look at this totally unbiased and 'rationally' - all you'd have to do at this point is plug in "A is to B, and when in C situation, do D" and it's very clear cut what her actions mean/what she wants/the appropriate response in the situation.

But, you say you still "don't get it". I don't think it's so much a matter of "not getting it" as "not approving of it" and "not wanting to bend to her way" because it's frustrating for you and it makes you angry that she won't or can't understand your POV and you find all this other stuff totally unecessary.

Why can't you make that extra step, especially if it's not really a "big deal" and it'll mean so much to your mom?

I think perhaps this is exactly what is going through your mom's mind in these moments and I think there's some truth to it.

We inconvenience and challenge ourselves all the time to reach and comfort people that we love, for no other reason than we love them. Now, if that's not irrational, I don't know what is!

PS I don't relate similarly to my parents either - they are both hardcore NTs, dad is INTJ mom is INTP. However, I am significantly older than you (been out of the house for years! Woot!) and have the luxury of hindsight and indepenence to help me. I know how my parents show their love and I know how to show my appreciation for it in a way that they understand.

My own POV for this is just to speak in a way that they can understand and then take care of myself on my own. You may not need your mom's demonstrations of love, but she does from you. I also am horrible at remembering dates and cards and all that, but if something is important to a friend or someone I'm dating (and I care enough about the relationship) I will make an effort if for no other reason than to please them.
 

BlackCat

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Hey Black Cat, I'm not ENFX but as an ENFP who has had and has close friendships and dating relationships with INXP - I'll say diplomatically that you are not able to see eye to eye. But that labelling someone else's emotions as 'irrational' - especially from an INFP - to me seems ironic and particularly unproductive in a personal relationship that will never change (you will always be your mother's son). I have found through experience that sometimes you INXPs can be really stubborn and stuck on being correct and unable to really put yourself in someone's shoes, even with your Ne.

First off, overall a good post.

I think that her emotions are irrational because she knows that everything should be fine... She knew I had my reasons and she pretty much explicitly told me it was ok, then had that reaction anyway (which came from a disagreement, but yeah). That in it's own makes it unproductive.

As I've said in this thread many times, I've put myself in her shoes and don't know how to walk with them. We don't get each other!

Well......

Yeah, my cousin is very much read up on the styles of love thing. To have good relationships it's ideal to have some shared styles apparently.
 

BlackCat

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Just so you people know I'm pretty clear on what I need to do, the OP was more of a rant than anything. Any more advice is noted, but I know what I need to do.
 

CrystalViolet

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Black Cat,
I'm tearing my hair out of frustration for you. My Mother is ESFJ, and that Fe can unwieldly. I've got nothing really to add, as you know, I completely stopped talking with my mother, to save my sanity....but man, does that bring back memories. I always was accused of being selfish also, even though I bent backwards to please her, though I never even achieved that. I even was told I was the worst daughter a women could possibly have. Seriously, that cuts deep, as I sacrificed my whole future to please her.

If I had any advice at all I'd give it, but I think I was like you, I found my mother completely irrational also, and couldn't wait to high tail it out of there.
 

invaderzim

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I still think she set you up with those flowers. My dad (ENFJ) trys to run that same bull:sick:.
My theory::
At first, you didn't have the time/money to give her the flower you promised her. Then she bought you flowers. She already was going to hold it over your head that you forgot her but she still remembered what you wanted. Your confused facial expression was just the window she needed to get all theatrical.
My dad loooooves guilt tactics. You have to use your intuition to crush the drama before it starts or call their hand on it.

For example, if you had come with the flower the day she bought you the Amethysts, she wouldn't have been able to do anything.
Or if you had just called her hand and said "the only reason you bought me the amethysts was to gulit trip me anyways".
I'm positive you would have seen the blankest "ohh crap he already knows what i'm up to expression on her face"

I don't know why ENFJs have a tendency to waste valueable energy on drama (but maybe its because they have so much emotional energy)? Isn't it easier just to say "the flower meant alot to me, I was a little hurt you couldn't get it sooner" ?


I can't tell how many times I've derailed my dad, or sucked the joy out a possible "drama king" episode. :harhar:
They're are like emotional bombs...defusing them is a full time job.
But its draining after awhile.

ESFJs are more containable because their gulit-tripping is only for the moment.
ENFJs will predict all the way down the line exactly how they are going to manipulate a sitution/you.
 

Xellotath

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I don't know if it might help you, but thinking about all this reminded me of a recurring thought I used to have as a teen, right when I was dealing with her.
"Am I your offspring or your equal?"
The answer to this, is to me the quintessential Fe or Fi.
If you pick Fe, you are her son, she by giving birth to you is your mother, therefore you owe her your life and should aim to please her in anyway possible and just -take it- whenever she gets mad, no matter how unfair her thinking might appear.
If you pick Fi, you are her equal, as human. She no longer is allowed to be the almighty princess because the standard is human to begin with. A human cannot be held responsible for things and circumstances outside his/her locus of control.

Do you see the difference? One focuses on the social role (Fe). The other on what is human (Fi).

What made my particular ENFJ so poisonnous is that she would often say "I want to be your friend!", attempting to come across as an "enlightened" mother (a rather pleasing social cliche rooted in a superficial imitation of Fi). Her actions and intentions however, never demonstrated any of that.
 

PeaceBaby

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But that labelling someone else's emotions as 'irrational' - especially from an INFP - to me seems ironic and particularly unproductive in a personal relationship that will never change (you will always be your mother's son).Basically, she is gonna think you didn't even "care" enough to recognize what it means for her to do this for her, and in a way, she's right.

Why can't you make that extra step, especially if it's not really a "big deal" and it'll mean so much to your mom?

We inconvenience and challenge ourselves all the time to reach and comfort people that we love, for no other reason than we love them. Now, if that's not irrational, I don't know what is!

:yes: well said.

I too have the perspective of years living on my own, and even being a mother myself, within the context of my relationship with my parents. Sometimes it seems frustrating to be the one who "bends" more, accommodates more, but consider yourself fortunate, powerful, lucky even to be able to do this! Sensing other's needs can be a huge gift! (I try to think of it from the positive, not the negative lol!)

You KNOW what to do, and you've said as much. Don't begrudge your Mom the small tokens that bring her so much pleasure. :)
 

Xellotath

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Careful.
Don't lose yourself in trying to be the hero and martyr of her whims.
Integrity is worth more than all the temporary peace and future contemplations of "oh gee, I could have been nicer", or unfounded hopes that by being nicer you will somehow backwards-engineer a reason for her behavior in a way that makes sense to you. Its a problem of integrity because it wouldn't be the real you dictating your actions but social situations (Fe), which in theory should stand against your Fi.

By favoring Fi you are caught in a dilemma. Compromise, and you will compromise yourself in the process. To momentarily give in into the demands of an Fe, is to me the equivalent of saying "That's ok, you're a crazy person, a sub-human person." Denying them their sense of humanity in favor of a trivial social abstraction. Egalitarian instincts should kick in at this stage and make you think "No, she is my equal, therefore she -should- get this."

I'm sorry, there is no way out.
To be an Fi means you will always run into conflicts with Fe.
Anything else, is like putting a band aid on a bullet hole.

But maybe I'm just in love with personality-based fatalism.
Errare humanum est.
 

Ivy

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CzeCze and Edahn said pretty much everything I was planning to say. I would like to revisit your OP and give some of my initial responses, though.

BlackCat said:
Well mother's day comes around and I don't have it. I tell her it's because I had just gotten the check and didn't get a chance to get her it yet. She seemed fine about this, and instead we had an outing just for her. We went on a hike, ate at her favorite restaurant, and saw the new Star Trek movie (she's a Trekkie). She seemed pretty content.

Since you were, as you say, broke, this sounds like your mom taking YOU out for dinner and a movie. If her "love language" is gifts, she probably didn't consider this to be your gift to her.

BlackCat said:
That was on mother's day. After that I go to my dad's house (I stay with her during the weekend) and and chill out on Monday. On Tuesday I cash the check, but that night I had a lot of homework to do, so once again I couldn't go to get her her plant. On Wednesday I had to stay home to take care of the animals at the house, since my dad had to go out and run errands all day, and at the end of the day go to band practice. So once again I couldn't do anything. On Thursday my friends wanted to hang out, and I hadn't seen them in about 10 days (nor socialized in 10 days) so I took the opportunity, no one is off work much anymore nowadays. Once again I couldn't really get it for her.

Sure you could. How long does it take to buy a flower? The homework excuse I can almost buy but staying home to take care of the animals (are they retarded? do they require 24/7 hands-on care?) and socializing with your friends, I can't. The bottom line is that you placed doing what you told your mother you would do very low on your list of priorities. Yes, it's a single stupid flower. She could very easily have gone out and gotten it herself, but that is beside the point. I think she's not being unreasonable to be hurt. You've characterized her as an irrational cult-joiner in this very thread--is it really hard to believe that your feelings for her wouldn't come through in your behavior?
 

Udog

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Blackcat - The fact that you still somewhat live with your mom is important. I do understand how difficult it is to have to be the 'bigger person' to a parent that has helped to ruin your childhood. (I'm aware of some of the details in the OP casually referred to.) Once you get some space away from her, please revisit this issue. Alot of the advice you are getting comes from people that were in the same boat, but then moved away and have had a chance to reflect. They have perspective you simply cannot have. Listening to them provides an opportunity for self-growth. Likewise, it probably isn't fair to expect you to show the same level of understanding and patience they now do.


However, I do think your mom has one valid justification, and if you want to avoid this situation in the future you need to take ownership of at least one thing:

Sure you could. How long does it take to buy a flower? The homework excuse I can almost buy but staying home to take care of the animals (are they retarded? do they require 24/7 hands-on care?) and socializing with your friends, I can't. The bottom line is that you placed doing what you told your mother you would do very low on your list of priorities.

To your mom, it's clear you prioritized friends and animals above a promise you kept to her. You broke your word, and even to me that would hurt a bit, even if I didn't care about the gifts. Your mom just discovered that a promise from her son is worth less than keeping an eye on the animals for an hour (time it takes to get a rose and come home) and hanging out with friends.

And you know what? I think she's right. You're clearly very frustrated with her right now, and would probably just as soon not see her for a year or two. These are understandable emotions considering your history with her.

Of course, I may be reaching just a bit. However, the sooner you admit that your negative feelings towards her may have played a role in this situation the sooner you'll be able to start viewing and dealing with her in a constructive manner.

Now, I may be coming off a bit harsh. To be fair, I didn't start gaining that ability until I was 28. I think I may be asking alot from someone so much younger than I was. So realize my challenge to you is one coming from respect... I think you might be able to start heading down this path.

If not, fair enough.
 

BlackCat

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Yep, you're pretty much right Udog. And I know that too in myself.

The reason it wasn't really that high on my priorities list is that she will make the biggest deal in the world about nothing, and then just act like everything is fine. That's what has happened, it's predictable. I'm still going to do it... so it's going to be fine to her. What I promised was that I would get her gift to her in some way, some time. That's what I told her. I'm going to uphold that. She has made me lower on her list of priorities with this kind of thing too, so we understand the whole "eventually" factor. I don't really care honestly that I am lower on her list as long as my basic needs are accommodated for.

This is getting to be kicking a dead horse, since I know what needs to happen. But your input is always appreciated Udog. :yes: And everyone else.

I think the both of us (mom and son) know that relations will get better when I'm not living with her.
 

Unique

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If someone was being materialistic with me it would be on my low priorities.

I find it very hard to believe she simply wanted a flower more so than the emotional drama that could be channeled through it. Also if she did JUST want the flower.... how materialistic is that anyway?

I wholeheartedly agree with invaderzim which sounds strange after watching some episodes of it the other day ;p
 

Ivy

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If someone was being materialistic with me it would be on my low priorities.

You probably wouldn't be promising them gifts, though.

I don't see how the mother in this case was being materialistic, though--the way I read Black Cat's account of her actions, she was unconcerned with the material value of the gift. She just wanted the gesture.

Doesn't really matter since we're only getting one side here. There are always at least two sides, and most often none of the sides are entirely in the right.
 

Unique

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Don't really care

It's all pointless dribble to me

People who create emotional drama need to get a hobbie instead
 
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