[NF] Why NFs pity themselves so much ?

[Kyrielle]

Well, when I said unsocial I wasn't saying 100% unsocial.

For exmple: the category of people known as scientist.
Most of them are quite unsocial. Since they are INTs by a large degree.
Most scientific carrers by definition don't allow you to be too social.

But the ability of those people to make logical conclusions is above average.


I have always looked at extroversion as a copy/paste mechanism.
I understand that things are not that much black and white but my thinking goes in this direction.


Modern science is extremly complex and if you don't invest decades in education you can't be on the "frontline".


Only if you distance youself enough you will see that many things that are promoted as logical are not that much logical.


If we presume that there is right and wrong.

I find this to be incorrect. Networking is still just as important in the scientific community as it is in any other field. If you do not know your competition, your "comrads", or your mentors, then how can you hope to have enough input in order to find solutions to your answers. In addition, you must be able to present your findings in a coherent manner and maintain discussions and be able to adaquately defend your position. These things require social skills to some degree. Science does not operate in a vacuum, usually. However, if you are using "social" in the context of "hanging out with coworkers and going to luncheons", then barring office jobs, such activities are not altogether common in other fields either.

I think Athenian has a very valid point. If you wish to move up in any field, even science, being able to foster useful connections is a highly logical choice. Such that being social is the more logical thing to do, though it may go against one's inherent tendencies.

Remember, I say this being probably as introverted as yourself and preferring to work alone. Working as an artist is just as "unsocial" as working in a lab doing research or going out in the field to examine sediments. But at some point, the need to interface with people effectively and essentially appear "social" is vital in getting anything done or making any kind of livable income. It just comes with the territory.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I said.

Well, when I said unsocial I wasn't saying 100% unsocial.


For exmple: the category of people known as scientist.
Most of them are quite unsocial. Since they are INTs by a large degree.
Most scientific carrers by definition don't allow you to be too social.

But the ability of those people to make logical conclusions is above average.


I have always looked at extroversion as a copy/paste mechanism.
I understand that things are not that much black and white but my thinking goes in this direction.


Modern science is extremly complex and if you don't invest decades in education you can't be on the "frontline".


Only if you distance youself enough you will see that many things that are promoted as logical are not that much logical.


If we presume that there is right and wrong.

But being social is not always a good choice in science. Since most of the time you have to invest in you a research. If you don't do that you are not really a scientist.

 

[Thalassa]

Originally Posted by Antisocial one
One question.

Do you ever feel a "duty" to make Ts around to feel something in that moment?

Um, T's have feelings. I don't feel that it's my duty to make them feel something since they already have feelings of their own. I am going to echo Lauren Ashley in that I hate when people tell me to "smile" when I don't feel like it, and I would empathetically wish to extend that same courtesy to others, to not ask them to "smile" et al. I've actually found several NTPs to be somewhat "warmer" than NTs are supposed to be.

The closest thing I would do to that would be to ask a T to examine his or her feelings or motivations in a particular situation, but it's not my "duty" to make them feel anything. I'm not especially into "duty" anyway being an INFP.

Furthermore, NTs can be very social, especially if they're ENTs, so maybe you're specifically referring to extremely introverted INTs.

I'm an I_F_, but I am more social than Athenian proclaims to be. I love being outdoors and I don't automatically mistrust people. It's more that I need my time alone to think and feel, and must retreat from crowds after a certain amount of time. I can still enjoy parties, but unlike some E's, large parties aren't the top of my list of things to do. I'm very social with friends and family, I just tend to eschew having a slew of acquaintences. I need human contact on a daily basis, but I've also been known to turn my phone off so people will leave me alone.

 

[Athenian200]

I'm an I_F_, but I am more social than Athenian proclaims to be. I love being outdoors and I don't automatically mistrust people. It's more that I need my time alone to think and feel, and must retreat from crowds after a certain amount of time. I can still enjoy parties, but unlike some E's, large parties aren't the top of my list of things to do. I'm very social with friends and family, I just tend to eschew having a slew of acquaintences. I need human contact on a daily basis, but I've also been known to turn my phone off so people will leave me alone.

I think it's possible you're just a weak E. Need human contact on a daily basis? That's quite a bit, almost... needy, actually (although I could see an E being like that). I'd like to have more human contact than I do, but nowhere near that much.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I just... well, I'd prefer you weren't so quick to dismiss my experience in order to reaffirm that F = Social. If I seemed to dismiss yours, it was kind of a defensive thing. I especially don't trust people who like the outdoors or parties.

 

[heart]

One question.

Do you ever feel a "duty" to make Ts around to feel something in that moment?


If some SFs want to answer this question they are free to do so.

The only time I ever consider anyone's internal feelings inregards to my input/influence is when they talk to me about their feelings and then the only thing I would do is try to get them to pinpoint in on exactly what they are feeling. If they don't seem like they want to talk about it, I don't push it.

Now if someone challenges my viewpoint and turns a discussion about feelings into a debate, yes, I'll debate them on those points, but with thinkers this can become a problem. Some thinkers, especially female thinkers don't seem to understand the difference between simply talking about their own feelings and/or debating the core issues at the heart of the feelings being talked about.

Some thinkers, mostly female (but not to be clear it's not all female thinkers as a group, many female thinkers do not do this, only some), want to make inflamatory remarks about the feelings of others and then when that is turned to debate as a result, they suddenly cry "unfair, you're invalidating my feelings!" Like they cannot find the dividing line between feeling and intellectual concept about such feelings. They seem to me to be emotional timebombs waiting to go off. They expect to be able to stamp all over the core issues surrounding someone else's beliefs but can't tolerate the same in return. Like a large cat with a huge tail it doesn't know how to handle.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I'm an I_F_, but I am more social than Athenian proclaims to be. I love being outdoors and I don't automatically mistrust people. It's more that I need my time alone to think and feel, and must retreat from crowds after a certain amount of time. I can still enjoy parties, but unlike some E's, large parties aren't the top of my list of things to do. I'm very social with friends and family, I just tend to eschew having a slew of acquaintences. I need human contact on a daily basis, but I've also been known to turn my phone off so people will leave me alone.

+1 to all of the above. Except needing daily contact and being outdoors.

 

[Athenian200]

+1 to all of the above. Except needing daily contact and being outdoors.

You don't seem so bad. You're unnervingly comfortable with parties, but other than that, you seem like you're in a good place. I'm actually more Introverted than I like to be because I've kind of caught myself in a situation where interaction and connection aren't really viable for me.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

You don't seem so bad. You're unnervingly comfortable with parties, but other than that, you seem like you're in a good place. I'm actually more Introverted than I like to be because I've kind of caught myself in a situation where interaction and connection aren't really viable for me.

Are you very shy as well as introverted?

 

[heart]

I used to be really distrustful of other people until I was in my mid twenties. Now I can look back and realize how I pushed people away with this and I feel awful about it. Plus I suffered lack of growth in certain areas of myself due to isolation.

I had INTJ father who was ultra distrustful of others and I let a lot of his beliefs influence me and then life helped to reinforce them. But now I try to take people on a case by case basis.

 

[Athenian200]

Are you very shy as well as introverted?

I'd say so.

 

[Athenian200]

I used to be really distrustful of other people until I was in my mid twenties. Now I can look back and realize how I pushed people away with this and I feel awful about it. Plus I suffered lack of growth in certain areas of myself due to isolation.

I had INTJ father who was ultra distrustful of others and I let a lot of his beliefs influence me and then life helped to reinforce them. But now I try to take people on a case by case basis.

I don't think you should feel guilty about "pushing people away," as if you owed it to them not to. It's just a choice; you can let them in, or not. Perhaps you just weren't ready to grow in those ways yet. Letting people in before you're mentally or emotionally ready for them can be a mistake.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I'd say so.

Could it be because you are over-analyzing?

 

[heart]

I don't think you should feel guilty about "pushing people away," as if you owed it to them not to. It's just a choice; you can let them in, or not. Perhaps you just weren't ready to grow in those ways yet. Letting people in before you're mentally or emotionally ready for them can be a mistake.

I cheated myself out of friendships and personal growth. I made other people feel that I did not want their friendship. These two things are regrets for me and always will be. It wasn't that I wasn't ready. It was that I couldn't see that I was operating under false ideas that needed to change.

 

[Athenian200]

Could it be because you are over-analyzing?

Possibly, but that's such a vague statement that it doesn't make any sense to me in the context you're using it in.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Possibly, but that's such a vague statement that it doesn't make any sense to me in the context you're using it in..

Sorry, I'm feeling lazy.

Could it be that you are over-analyzing people/situations? Do you try to figure out the right thing to say/do, if someone approves/disapproves of what you say/do, and if you are coming off the way you intend to? Since you list your type as INFJ, I'm just assuming that could be part of the problem because many INFJs I know have this issue.

 

[Athenian200]

I cheated myself out of friendships and personal growth. I made other people feel that I did not want their friendship. These two things are regrets for me and always will be. It wasn't that I wasn't ready. It was that I couldn't see that I was operating under false ideas that needed to change.

Well, feeling like you cheated yourself out of friendships and personal growth... is a more than valid regret. I just hope you haven't additionally come to feel guilty because you've been convinced that you "owed" those people friendship, because that's not true.

 

[Athenian200]

Sorry, I'm feeling lazy.

Could it be that you are over-analyzing people/situations? Do you try to figure out the right thing to say/do, if someone approves/disapproves of what you say/do, and if you are coming off the way you intend to? Since you list your type as INFJ, I'm just assuming that could be part of the problem because I know many INFJs I know have this issue.

Yes, that's one of my issues. But if it were just that, I could probably work through it. The thing is, I have a whole bunch of things on top of that one. I'm actually afraid people would harm me due to some of them.

 

[Thalassa]

I think it's possible you're just a weak E. Need human contact on a daily basis? That's quite a bit, almost... needy, actually (although I could see an E being like that). I'd like to have more human contact than I do, but nowhere near that much.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I just... well, I'd prefer you weren't so quick to dismiss my experience in order to reaffirm that F = Social. If I seemed to dismiss yours, it was kind of a defensive thing. I especially don't trust people who like the outdoors or parties.

Uh, not all people who like the outdoors are extroverted. Often when I'm outdoors I'm alone. I live in West Virginia so I spend a lot of solitary time enjoying nature.

I also didn't quite say that I like parties I said that I have been capable of enjoying them.

I didn't dismiss your experience, I was only pointing out that all I_Fs aren't the same, just as you have done excessively in this thread. I

'm not a weak E. I never get E on tests, and when I've been at work or going to class all day the first thing I want to do is run into my apartment and slam the door and be alone. Being around people all the time drains me.

Wanting human contact each day isn't needy, it's human. Human contact can be as simple as saying hello to a neighbor or having a five minute conversation with my mom. I am more "balanced" in my percentages of I and E, though. I'm just not an extreme introvert.

I'm sorry you're so defensive but my first encounter of you is that you were bashing NFPs like there was no tomorrow. I feel bad for you now, though, now that I've been able to understand more that you're coming from a place of defense, not offence. Bear in mind that I've come at some points as a place of defense against you because of what I perceived as your original dismissal of INFps, too.

 

[Athenian200]

Uh, not all people who like the outdoors are extroverted. Often when I'm outdoors I'm alone. I live in West Virginia so I spend a lot of solitary time enjoying nature.

Oh, I know that. Some Extraverts don't even like the outdoors. I just happen to dislike nature. It's nothing personal.

I didn't dismiss your experience, I was only pointing out that all I_Fs aren't the same, just as you have done excessively in this thread.

Oh, okay then. I can understand that.

Wanting human contact each day isn't needy, it's human. Human contact can be as simple as saying hello to a neighbor or having a five minute conversation with my mom. I am more "balanced" in my percentages of I and E, though. I'm just not an extreme introvert.

Well, it's not needy for you. I just meant that it seems a little needy to me on the surface, because that would be considered extremely emotionally demanding by the standards most of the people I know use.

I'm sorry you're so defensive but my first encounter of you is that you were bashing NFPs like there was no tomorrow. I feel bad for you now, though, now that I've been able to understand more that you're coming from a place of defense, not offence. Bear in mind that I've come at some points as a place of defense against you because of what I perceived as your original dismissal of INFps, too.

Okay, then. The original reason I started dismissing INFPs, though... was because I felt attacked by a few of them, and then I just kind of developed a negative attitude towards them. After that happened, I found myself looking for ways to dissociate myself from them, because many of the NTs I knew were accusing NFs as a whole of exactly the same behaviors that I found fault with in those INFPs (and in that particular case, those particular INFPs were mostly responsible for creating that negative image).

So I've just had to try since that time to realize that I'm in a different situation now, and these INFPs aren't necessarily my enemies.

 

[entropie]

Yea, why do they ? Life is unique and noone gets what he has paid for