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[MBTI General] Why the INFP male is the ideal match from an ENTJ female perspective

Harlow_Jem

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Apr 18, 2008
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You're... not paying attention.

Listen. Confirmation bias is when you search only for the things that support your conclusion, and put those in higher priority than those which don't support your idea.

You did that. Come on now. It's game over -- you can't prove conclusively that INFP is even a good match, let alone ideal. Don't talk to me about writing objectively.
What you wrote is absolutely subjective.

I don't understand how seeing that you make the most common logical fallacy means that I've discounted your every point.

Jeez you're putting words in my mouth now.


This also has nothing to do with type. You might be able to excuse employing extroversion as a cause, but... not really.

No typology is the study of types. And here is where you're wrong. It's not subjective. The types are built off of a few perfectly distinguished elements. The structure is subjective, but those elements are not. I possess a profound understanding of those elements.
Like found in a building, the structure requires a strong foundation.

That's the point -- it doesn't matter what other people say. Studying any object means that it's got nothing to do with perspective.

If you're doing it right, Neo-Jungian Typology is an objective metric, not a series of floating nebulous ideas.


Right. It was personal.
Which is fine, but then why do you propound this matchup as if it will work this way for any and all incarnations?
Talk about your own experiences, not the would be INFP and ENTJ experiences.

Since you didn't, what you said is potentially misleading.

Not explicitly, but after hearing "The INFP" a dozen or so times, it's only natural to think that you're talking about all of them, and not just one in particular. No, actually, you can make it clear in your post (since you did say they were YOUR experiences) by mentioning the actual experiences. I saw none.
All I saw were abstract references using "The" rather than "My".

How hypocritical can you get?

At the same time it's not my responsibility to protect the other forum members, it's not you're responsibility to make sure I don't.

Get off my case -- you're the one who screwed up.
Just confess it, correct it, and move on.

Talk about not being open...

Hahaha first of all you're defensive is hilarious and so irrational that I cannot continue arguing you for the sake of preserving my own sanity.

Second of all, you're not even an INFP or an ENTJ.... why are you posting your disbelief of the dynamics that the INFP and ENTJ feels/observes between the two as if your opinion on the matter is in the slightest, truly relevant?
 

simulatedworld

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^ Now no one who isn't ENTJ or INFP can have a relevant opinion on this?

Then why are you bothering to share it with a typology forum consisting of all types, and why did you bother dignifying any of these clearly irrelevant opinions with a response at all?
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
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4,517
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ENTP
She had to convince herself.
See, I think on some level, she really knows that she's full of it, and wants to help herself. But her ego just can't let go long enough.

Good thing none of this matters or she'd be in real trouble.
 

Harlow_Jem

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eNTJ
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^ Now no one who isn't ENTJ or INFP can have a relevant opinion on this?

Then why are you bothering to share it with a typology forum consisting of all types, and why did you bother dignifying any of these clearly irrelevant opinions with a response at all?

Of course they can. I'm asking why he's so convinced he's right and constantly arguing about it if he's not either type. Discussing it and stating his opinion as an outsider a few times is one thing. Continually arguing without experience or personal insight despite what someone who actually is one of those types says is another thing. He's trying to argue that I have no basis in my argument; what kind of an idiot tries to prove someone's personal opinion wrong? This matter isn't about right or wrong; yes or no. It's about "this is how I feel about INFP males as an ENTJ female." That's it.
 

simulatedworld

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I don't think he's arguing about your personal insight regarding your own relationship experience as an ENTJ who fits well with a certain INFP; he's arguing that you are misrepresenting this experience as representative of some significant majority of possible male INFP+female ENTJ pairings.

I've made this mistake, too, with some of my own observations about myself, by incorrectly assuming that they apply to a significant majority of people of my own type. It's not a big deal, but I've learned a lot about ways to avoid this by reading posts on this forum.

I know you didn't explicitly say that, but the generalized manner in which you discuss these observations implies they must apply in a statistically significant number of cases, when in reality the only data you really have is that it applies to yours. You don't actually need personal experience with a majority of these cases, since that is impossible for one person anyway, but you need more than just personal anecdotal evidence to suggest that a typological correlation exists here. That is Nocap's point.

What you mean to say is, "My INFP boyfriend is a great match for my ENTJ self", not, "the INFP male is the ideal match for the ENTJ female." There's a difference.
 

Gengar

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INFP
Oh dear.

<steps in and sings an INFP peace melody>
 

Kalach

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I don't think he's arguing about your personal insight regarding your own relationship experience as an ENTJ who fits well with a certain INFP; he's arguing that you are misrepresenting this experience as representative of some significant majority of possible male INFP+female ENTJ pairings.

But you know what? If we're not allowed to do things like that, we may as well trade in the Ni for something that actually works. (Oh wait, Ni does work.)

Okey Dokey, now to pretend that Ni has a basis for all the massive leaps from particular to general it does, particularly on the question of type relations:

Assuming all people do have a type, people make of their type whatever they make of it, but still it's there. The details of the interactions between two people of a given type will vary according to education, habit, baggage, culture, location and a billion other variables but... if type is real, then a foundation does (or in mismatched types, doesn't) exist for adequate, quick, deep communication.

What could stand in the way of that foundation? Well, type theory is a moderately expressive model of cognitive goings on. It appears more or less scientifically unprovable, everyday experience not being a proof that the model is anything other than moderately descriptive. So, there could easily be some big fat psychological process sitting there, hidden away behind layers of other mumbo jumbo we use to understand ourselves, and that hidden, undescribed, non-MBTI modelled process could well be fucking with what we might call MBTI-stuff.

In other words, MBTI is moderately descriptive, but cannot be called complete or truly deep. There could be, maybe even probably is, other stuff at work. And that may make any type claim invalid.

Or not.

Who knows?

INFPs and ENTJs go well together.




And on second thoughts:

Hm, nothing proven except that some people, me included, appear to like to generalise. But how could Te focused Ni be wrong? Well, it's not ever going to be right unless it has experience of the world out there. And it's not ever going to have complete experience. And is it ever going to be able to prove that it has nonetheless had adequate experience?

It might. Ni/Te (if it exists and functions the way it's described as functioning, and doesn't suffer other mysterious impediment) will learn to generlaise adequately, and be satisfied that it has done because it's not Ti. And Because it's not alone: there's Se as well. The Se person is going to cruise along soaking up new stuff even as the Ni/Te person makes conclusions.

Put Ni/Te in a box and shut off its access to the world, and it'll be demonstratbly worng a lot!

Ah, the joy of a judging function... you don't have to be endlessly engaged in gathering information without end. And the sadness of a judging function: if you don't endlessly gather information, you'll always be wrong.

Why, it's almost as if there has to be a balance. Luckily, people have different focuses, different tendencies, indeed, different preferences for how to process. By jingo, I'm right because I'm right because I'm me: if there weren't other people of suitable type to balance my type, I wouldn't be able to go so far into my type, and be me: I'd have to be Everyman instead.

So where do types come from? I wasn't born with the knowledge that someone else can balance out my extremes letting me go to my extremes. Or was I?




This last question seems to crystalise the inadequacy of type theory. It's tendentious. It doesn't explain. And when thinking it over, one comes to the expressive limit of MBTI quite quickly and knows there must be some better, deeper explanation.

But practically speaking, INFPs and ENTJs go well together.

And it's kinda sad that that's the best I can say about it. I don't know why it's sad. But it is. Were I a believer, I'd say my Fi is moaning. Which seems to be true. But we know it isn't, because MBTi is just a model.
 

Udog

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Give it a few weeks/months.
You'll be itching for a strong he-man sooner than you think.

Can you explain this a bit more?
 

Kalach

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Can you explain this a bit more?


If she says, I said it to test the ENTJs boundaries (and jangle some INFPs into showing something), then yes, she can explain it more.


how can i spot an entj?

Look for someone in charge who speaks bluntly and seems to have no inhibition about saying personal things that would embarrass normal people but who gets quizzical and puzzled if there is some mention of feeling. Like they have some unbalancing secret.

And that's why INFPs and ENTJs go well together. Or that's why people who focus on understanding and growing personal feeling go well with people who focus on more or less anything else so long as it's outside of them and tangible.

I worry about ENTJs. They're like walking wounded. And I can usually do nothing about it.



That's weird coming from me, I know. I don't like always being the ENTJ's saboteur.
 

Jeremy

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Again, with all relationship topics that try to say that one type is good for another..

They're not valid. Typology is a very poor indicator of success when it comes to a relationship, because anyone can be compatible with anyone of any type. All you can see is a very, very vague outline of the surface personality with the MBTI - the intimate, relationship personality is very different from someone's type code. Typology can't work as a good barometer for topics like this, especially considering how much variation that there is between people of the same type in terms of their outside personality.

I'm glad that your relationship is working well, but you can't take one good one and apply it to all situations, or like the others said, you may end up confirming your own hypothesis. Not that that's a bad thing :)
 

BlackCat

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How to spot an ENTJ- Possibly intimidating, has a powerful presence, very up front, open minded and open for suggestions (when they get to know you).

There is other stuff but I can't really think about it right now.
 

Kalach

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Again, with all relationship topics that try to say that one type is good for another..

They're not valid. Typology is a very poor indicator of success when it comes to a relationship, because anyone can be compatible with anyone of any type. All you can see is a very, very vague outline of the surface personality with the MBTI - the intimate, relationship personality is very different from someone's type code. Typology can't work as a good barometer for topics like this, especially considering how much variation that there is between people of the same type in terms of their outside personality.

Sez you. Typology, in my humble opinion, says something about communication style. INFP and ENTJ have communication styles that quickly and easily get to what's important in one another. Whether or not that is actually used to communicate is another matter.


And Lord, the sheer number of times I've witnessed people with partially or completely incompatible communication styles trying to communicate... If the basic compatibility isn't there, lots of other hurdles are, which is not to say success is impossible.
 

Jeremy

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Sez you. Typology, in my humble opinion, says something about communication style. INFP and ENTJ have communication styles that quickly and easily get to what's important in one another. Whether or not that is actually used to communicate is another matter.

I agree that Typology can be used to help forge a relationship by understanding how to communicate with your SO, and understanding how their mind works BEFORE you get to know them intimately. However, I don't think it's accurate to say that certain "types" are good for one another, especially when you get to the point where you begin excluding people (either consciously or unconsciously) because of their type.

Many people on the forums often ask "Can a relationship between XXXX type and XXXX type work?!" and so many people will say "No!" or "It will be hard!!!!" My counterargument is that any relationship is hard, and while typology may help you understand your SO's communication better, it's not going to give you an accurate view of how your relationship is going to turn out. I've seen people get scared that their relationship is going to go badly just because of the advice people on here give based solely on their experience with ONE person that is a certain type.

That doesn't even get into the problem that comes when people type someone else THEN tries to use that information to forge a relationship. It's impossible to accurately type another, at least IMHO, and to do so and then try to base any conclusions off of it leads to nothing but heartache. Typology is not a science, not in the very least, and yet people constantly overstate its value in making life decisions.

Typology is not a good way to find an "ideal" relationship, because an ideal relationship comes from multiple things. You can't trap that in a 4 letter code that is ultimately *extremely* vague. The MBTI is a very useful tool to help you understand yourself and others, but I personally believe that using it like this is taking something that is meant to be spread over a cupcake and trying to frost a whole sheet cake with it.
 

Kalach

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I agree that Typology can be used to help forge a relationship by understanding how to communicate with your SO, and understanding how their mind works BEFORE you get to know them intimately. However, I don't think it's accurate to say that certain "types" are good for one another, especially when you get to the point where you begin excluding people (either consciously or unconsciously) because of their type.

Being as I'm about as flexible as... something not very flexible, I tend to think I have just the one communication style, and more importantly, just the one set of built in conditions for what does and does not count as satisfaction. To fall back on MBTI shorthand, I wouldn't be INTJ if I didn't believe in perfectability largely of my own design but with other's input crucially involved. The combination--my design, their input, so the synthesis of the two--makes it kinda unlikely that satisfaction is immediate with someone who can't join in in a way I can immediately work with. It's stressful and distressing in prospect, and lonely most of the time, and probably in fact never satisfied. And it's very J. So I welcome all a y'all P types to conform to your type and thereby keep believing that no one can conform to your type. That flexibility lets me get away with being, pardon the expression, rigid, but not ultimately alone.
 

simulatedworld

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Sez you. Typology, in my humble opinion, says something about communication style. INFP and ENTJ have communication styles that quickly and easily get to what's important in one another. Whether or not that is actually used to communicate is another matter.


And Lord, the sheer number of times I've witnessed people with partially or completely incompatible communication styles trying to communicate... If the basic compatibility isn't there, lots of other hurdles are, which is not to say success is impossible.

Your long post is a really interesting summation of the Ni+Te perspective on this: you don't care about purely objective correctness because trying to be truly objective is impractical. I appreciate that, but Ne+Ti still wants to try and explore every seemingly useless possibility just to get as close to true objectivity as possible.

And I don't think ENTJ and INFP get along often enough to really show any sort of pattern of relationship quality--this is why I find socionics and other relationship-quality-prediction systems to be pretty specious. Opposite dominant function relationships (like this one, Te vs. Fi) can cause a lot more problems than they solve. Lots of supposedly good matches fail and lots of seemingly bad ones work beautifully--there simply isn't any significant pattern, no matter what compatibility patterns Ni arbitrarily designates as implications of the type descriptions you've read.

Ni is overconfident in itself, and it makes NJs sloppy because they trust their own intuitive perspective on things without external evidence just a little too much. I know Te says that's missing the point, but I stand by it. ;)
 

Kalach

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Ni is overconfident in itself, and it makes NJs sloppy because they trust their own intuitive perspective on things without external evidence just a little too much.

That sounds right.

But we have a back-up system. Ni/Te for the sloppy conclusions, aka a chosen direction, and then our very own in-the-moment, J-less, "See what happens" jigger: Se.

Were the Se and the Ni/Te systems equally resourced, we'd be the complete, world-owning cyborgs.



Ah, if I only had a heart.
 

Sentura

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I worry about ENTJs. They're like walking wounded. And I can usually do nothing about it.

i have an ENTJ friend with a pretty turbulent past. i sometimes try to ask her, but for the life of her she can't/doesn't want to "let it out". it seems like she has no regard whatsoever for feeling because she can't understand it properly - even her own. i don't usually worry about people, but i reckon she'll have a breakdown soon if it isn't let out.
 

Nonsensical

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I am definitely not doing that. My boyfriend is more feminine/passive than the average football-mongering, protein-shake-gobbling meathead but is still very masculine. What I was trying to say is that he's masculine enough to me but the fact that he is still easily affected by his feelings makes him feel sometimes like he isn't masculine enough to himself. But that's just him; he's probably that way because his mother is a crazy bitch who fucks with his head... maybe other INFP males have come to terms with themselves.

Alright, then I apologize for falsely accusing you.
 
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