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[MBTI General] NFs and rationality

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,769
Instead of writting large posts in NT forum against feelings (since I was asked to) I will take more constructive approach.

This forum is full of posts in which Fs claim that they are able to make rational desicion.
So I am wondering what rational desicion is in F mindset and how much different are F person rationality and T person rationality?

Since I am not sure that we think on the same thing when we say rational in many cases.


In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?

What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?


Be prepaired to explain your calims in more datail. (just a note )
There is no need that all replys contain answers to all questions.
 
G

garbage

Guest
In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?

Only when I deal with other people do I feel the need to take on the typical NF mindset. The more of a personal connection I have with the person, the less "direct and to the point" I am with them. Having said that, I deal with other people a lot.

I'm content as long as there's a balance between critical thinking and personal connection.

What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?

In a stereotypical sense, ignoring or disregarding feelings, especially in others. They're factors; they exist and should therefore be factored into decisions or in communication with other people.

The most rational and efficient way to communicate with someone is on their level, not necessarily through direct statements. Although brief and to the point, the message behind a direct statement may get "lost in translation" through the speaker's or listener's biases, personalities, and experiences, and so the message isn't received as intended.

To me, recognizing this but ignoring it is irrational.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
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Antisocial one said:
So I am wondering what rational desicion is in F mindset and how much different are F person rationality and T person rationality?

For me rationality is doing what makes the most sense, what would produce the best results, what would be the most efficient, and what would go toward the greater good. Basically NeTe.

I am not a slave to my feelings, with impersonal affairs I make decisions based off of Te. For example yesterday I was eating at a restaurant with two friends, we had just finished eating. I wanted some ice cream. I weened myself from my attachment to it and decided "well, I need to save my money, and I don't need something else, I'm content with what I just ate". That's a bare bones example though.

I tend to let my feelings influence me, but not to the point of irrationality. My Fi is a constant driving voice in my head, it seems to object when I don't feed it, but I have to do what's best.

Antisocial one said:
In the case you can act like a typical NT, for how long you can maintain that state of mind before you feel the need to experiance/make/say somthing "fluffy" ? What kind of events can throw you out of this state of mind in a blink?

Well for me I can remain in my "NT mind state" for a good while, I'm usually spent after three hours doing it, and I need to do other things for a while (a few hours) before I can do it again, such as playing a game, talking to some friends, listening to music, exercising etc. Anything that doesn't include a lot of rational thinking all of the time, it's a way to recharge. Things that can throw me off of this attitude include colorful and powerful emotions, such as lust, anger, etc.

Antisocial one said:
What parts of NT mindset you find disturbing and/or irrational ?

I can agree with how NTs deal with things, but the only things that bother me are when they totally disregard their feelings, make a choice, then majorly regret it and feel bad later.

By the way I'm not an INTP. :)
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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As NTJ I think that it is really a mistake to ignore peoples feeling since that usually leads to problems. But that does not mean that I agree with approach that others use.


Does this mean that extroverted NF becomes clearly "less rational" in many cases when they are around people they care about?
 

kiddykat

movin melodies
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According to my MBTI results from a college course :laugh: my results were:

1. How I relate to the world- ENFP
2. How I think internally to myself, probably more reflective of true personality? ENTP

I find it amazing how I got 2 results.

I think you're right- my 'fluffiness' is how I would like to treat others, because I assume that as humans, there is a level of 'Respect' we show others, and my assumption is that we're all wounded individuals, who need a bit of tenderness..

In the back of my mind, I think A LOT- probably too much sometimes, and some of those thoughts are questions I have, because of my curiosity for life, for learning, for wisdom.

Although I know I *can* make decisions from logic/reasoning, I chose to make my choices from the heart- because I think it speaks truest to our nature, as human beings.

Maybe I'm naiive, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that in most idealists, there is a rationalist, and behind most rationalists, there is an idealist. Because we hold onto certain notions, thought patterns, I think that is being 'ideal' in itself, in hopes that whatever we think/perceive is true.

Also I think that temperament relates to the environment we grew up in/our persona we display early on as babies.. so the roles we take on, are just a way for us to grow/mature as individuals.

Anyway, just because a person's a feeler, doesn't mean they don't rationalize the circumstance. Just means they tend to make decisions based on what they feel is right from within? That is why, even with Jungian analysis, there will not be an accurate way to predict human behavior, because at the heart of it all? I think that we tend to want to be self-actualized individuals so the 4 letter codes really don't matter, when it boils down to it. We just have different ways of communicating/relating. I think, common ground & understanding is something more important to focus on. Total rambling!:D
 

entropie

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To think internally to yourself more reflective of yourself is not entp. Thats more like having lunch all day with multiple people at the table :D
 

kiddykat

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I know. The results were a bit.. questionable! :yes:

In fact? I think that instead of polarizing people/our thought patterns, I think there are 3 aspects to human behavior, which probably relates to Freudian concepts of id, ego, s-ego.. I'll save that for another discussion. (minus the part that we're all degraded to a level of sexual primitive beings- I think Carl Rogers was right also- we have a higher level of human potential).

Besides that? I think psychology has its own social-political implications.
 

Virtual ghost

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Anyway, just because a person's a feeler, doesn't mean they don't rationalize the circumstance. Just means they tend to make decisions based on what they feel is right from within?

That is exactly why NTs have problems with Fs in so many cases.
You say that they rationalize and then you say that heart plays a big role here. In my "vocabulary" that is not rational approach.

You rationalize but you "never" cut the value of personal component.
 
G

garbage

Guest
As NTJ I think that it is really a mistake to ignore peoples feeling since that usually leads to problems. But that does not mean that I agree with approach that others use.


Does this mean that extroverted NF becomes clearly "less rational" in many cases when they are around people they care about?

In the back of my mind, I think A LOT- probably too much sometimes, and some of those thoughts are questions I have, because of my curiosity for life, for learning, for wisdom.

Although I know I *can* make decisions from logic/reasoning, I chose to make my choices from the heart- because I think it speaks truest to our nature, as human beings.

Maybe I'm naiive, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that in most idealists, there is a rationalist, and behind most rationalists, there is an idealist. Because we hold onto certain notions, thought patterns, I think that is being 'ideal' in itself, in hopes that whatever we think/perceive is true.
...
Anyway, just because a person's a feeler, doesn't mean they don't rationalize the circumstance. Just means they tend to make decisions based on what they feel is right from within? That is why, even with Jungian analysis, there will not be an accurate way to predict human behavior, because at the heart of it all? I think that we tend to want to be self-actualized individuals so the 4 letter codes really don't matter, when it boils down to it. We just have different ways of communicating/relating. I think, common ground & understanding is something more important to focus on. Total rambling!:D

Difference in temperament is likely more a matter of differing priorities rather than an issue of rationality/irrationality, or even capability in general.

When I'm designing some software package, for example, "feelings" just don't play into it (except perhaps from the standpoint that I want to make my software user-friendly, I solicit user opinions, etc.); it's necessarily a rational action.

I think BlueWing said it best when he highlighted the difference between INTP and INFP. I've got it in my quotes file as follows (emphasis mine):
"The INFP is governed primarily by Introverted Feeling. This is a rational function and therefore strives to create internal order. Extroverted Intuition tends to be used in service of this faculty. Experiences are to be assessed based on the personal values elected by the INFP. Unlike the dominant Introverted Thinking temperament—the INTP who seeks to derive an understanding of external experiences, the INFP seeks to derive a sense of personal meaning. An INTP asks what is the most accurate model to depict the observed phenomenon, yet the INFP would ask—what personal lesson could be derived from this particular experience? And how this is conducive to an establishment of sound personal values. In short, whilst the INTP tends to ask—what is true, the INFP asks what is humane?"

According to my MBTI results from a college course :laugh: my results were:

1. How I relate to the world- ENFP
2. How I think internally to myself, probably more reflective of true personality? ENTP

I find it amazing how I got 2 results.

I've never seen the MBTI broken down into how one relates to the world and how one thinks internally.. pretty interesting.
 

Clownmaster

EvanTheClown (ETC)
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I can't speak for all F's, but there are times when I use both approaches, or a mixed variety.

In many situations, I need to look at the cold hard facts and rationalize what would be the best option out of the multiple scenarios I've formulated in my mind.

In other situations, I allow my emotions to build on top of the logic, giving me further passion in arguing a point, an inspiration to keep the drive up and bounce the logic around to find a disproving article in someone else's argument.

And in other situations, particularly ones of the heart, logic only goes so far. Thus I revert to reacting on emotions and impulse.
 

nanook

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Since I am not sure that we think on the same thing when we say rational in many cases.

well, when i talk about rationality, i mean a stage of development, meaning something that a lot of NT (and other people) don't have achieved yet. it seems likely, that this stage requires fluent cooperative use of at least 3, probably 4 functions, but that's a quick shot for explaining how one's thinking process changes when one becomes rational. also i am not exactly sure, if my personal understanding of what constitutes rational thinking is actually the rational stage or the stage above rationality.

the word rational (without -ity) as adjective, describing a decision ... i am not used to apply such a label to anything i do or decide ... you can have that one.
 

entropie

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well, when i talk about rationality, i mean a stage of development, meaning something that a lot of NT (and other people) don't have achieved yet.

Are you serious ? Boy you are giving me the creeps
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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I do; I can. I just hate myself afterwards. It's not worth it.

That is why I placed quotation marks there.

Would you mind telling me why this is so stressful for you?



If someone else wants to answer this one the person is welcome.
 

Tiltyred

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Because I cannot count the times that I've snapped at someone or acted unkindly out of impatience or ... whatever the reason ... and then I find out their dog just died, or some such. The incident won't leave my mind, just keeps coming back to stab at me again and again, I hurt that person, I didn't know what they were going through, I was thoughtless, I added to their pain, I know better, why didn't I act better ... It keeps coming straight back to me that you never really know why someone acts the way they do and it's just better to be merciful than to try to be just. You can be just unless you're omniscient. So it's impossible for me to determine what someone "deserves." The only way to proceed is to assume that everyone deserves to be treated well at all times.

I mean, all that said, I'm still a bitch sometimes. But it's not what I'm trying for. It's not justified.
 

PeaceBaby

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Since I am not sure that we think on the same thing when we say rational in many cases.

No, I don't think we are.

And even though you used the word "fluffy" in this thread, I shall still reply as I see the distinction.

To the NT, rational implies decisions made free from the fetters of emotion. As a factor, emotional impact tends to ranks low in the decision making process, and in reality, NT's can be so out of touch with their emotions that they neglect or even forget to take them into account.

To the NF, rational means one must include emotional impact as a factor when making decisions. Because emotions play a larger role in daily experience, they are harder to ignore. Generally, most NF's will have examples in their lives from when they ignored their emotions and paid the price afterwards.

Out of balance, any decision making process is prone to error.

Classic NT error - allowing facts to govern without considering the human element.
Classic NF error - allowing feelings to govern when sometimes they should not.

One is not better than the other; neither are perfect all the time. And since people always possess a combination of T/F, we are all always thinking & feeling. No decisions are purely one or the other. And I challenge you to try to see it otherwise.

There's nothing inherent in the word rational that says you can't use emotions as part of the reasoning process, ya know.
 

TaylorS

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I can make rational decisions just fine. What make me an NF is the MOTIVATION behind those descriptions. That is, Ti, being my tertiary, is subservient to Ni and Fe; that doesn't mean my Ti is weak, it means that it's just not "in control", it is not a source of motivation. As an INFJ my underlying motivation is to apply ideas towards person-centered, "humanitarian" ends. Ti is the tool that makes sure that the ideas make sense and are based on good facts and good theories.
 

Phenix

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If we define feeling/emotion as an assessment of how our decision impacts another then it becomes one of either screening criteria (do I throw this course of action out because of it) or one of many decision criteria (what is the best course of action).

One way to look at it would be that the NF weights the impact on others equally or more heavily than other criteria. NTs would tend to weight it less, or not even choose it as a decision criterion.
 

Apollanaut

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To my way of thinking, it is rational to take into account feelings as well as logic when making assessments and judgements. The best decisions are made when both approaches are included.
 

sculpting

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I can function with a strong Te for short stretches or when a situation is very important. Then I HAVE to stop and take a break.

I started a fight with my bf entp the other day, as she came in my office and was giving me lists of stuff to do. I burst into singing the "happy project manager song". She (in a very stressed out Fe dominant mode) was like WTF? The next day she was giving me a hard time about something else and I realized she was still mad at me. I had to stop and think-why did I start singing and "fluffing" out?

It was becuase I was very tired mentally. I could not take anymore information through Ne, as I was overwhelmed and felt out of control. So I basically exploded externally to block all the incoming info as I needed a break-an Se-Fi sort of explosion outwards to block incoming Ne I think...

Anyways once I explained the above we were good, but thought it is worth sharing as I never really thought through what the "feezuires"/silly switch were all about before now-at least for me of course.

With respect to decisions me and her had another good conversation today. When I work with a group of people I want them to FEEL happy. She wants them to ACT happy, ie not fight. secondary Fi vs tertiary Fe I think at work.

I am motivated by others happiness and will make the decision that maximizes happiness for the most number of people. Its very utilitarian in nature. This means I may directly piss you off but if it is in the best interest of the company (which normally translates into the happiness of employees and customers) then I will strongly decide to pursuethat choice over others. Normally it is logical but not free of emotionally considered context in anyway. Typically this Te powered decision, and resultant unhappiness, does bother me considerably and cause me emotional discomfort but I realize the end result is for the best.

I think this same thought process may explain why some NFs neglect thier nearest and dearest for what they consider the greater good. They have to maximize happiness if that makes sense???

sorry this is all over the place... Not sure if I answered the question or not :)
 
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