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[INFJ] INFJ Trouble

Orangey

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:laugh:

I can't personally relate to it, as I don't think I'm one to get as easily offended/hurt, but yes. If she's obviously hurt about it, explain it. Doesn't even have to be a huge drawn-out conversation. Just..'Hey, I'm sorry about last week, that you weren't able to meet my sibling. It totally wasn't planned - I wasn't even planning or wanting to introduce him to anyone...we just bumped into my other friend and got some food. If he comes back to town again, I'll be sure to introduce you guys." The end. :smile:

Sounds friendly, casual, and unassuming. Thanks ;).

And I think I may have under-qualified her level of hurt at the situation. I only said that I may have pissed her off (taken from some info I got from the mutual friend earlier today) , but she may not even care at this point. It's not like she gets into some overtly pissy mood with me or anything or acts hurt and mopey...it's FAR more subtle than that. And I'm sure that if I asked her about it, she would deny it even if she were actually hurt.

I just used this as an example of some of the things I do that, when taken cumulatively, could lead her to have suspicions that I don't like her, and therefore cause her to trust and communicate with me less (which I have been noticing as a bit of a pattern in our interaction).
 

Kyrielle

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These two paragraphs resonate with my experiences. I find it kind of unique and odd that conversations, after a long period of time end up having to go through the whole 'formal polite conversation' phase once again. Why do people engage in this sort of behaviour and what does it mean?

Question for the INFJs out there. (Apologies for hijacking the thread.)
The paradox that is...

INFJ decides that there is not much in common. INFJ doesn't let other person know what's been happening in their life. Therefore confirming their own belief that things have changed between both people. This cycle seems to occur more often when people haven't spoken to each others for long period of times. All based off my own experience when the INFJ would sometimes comment 'so much has happened' without really going into much depth.

Any identification?


Well I know when people ask, "what's going on with your life?" and I haven't spoken to them on a regular basis, it's very very hard to me to figure out what to say. Most of the time I don't remember what specifically has happened and I need them to ask something more specific (like "so did you go anywhere interesting or different?" which is easier and less general). The question is so general, I can't help but give a general answer. I hate doing it too, because I know they're expecting me to elaborate, but I would need several minutes to sort of piece together what I recall happening and put flags on events that I deemed worth sharing with that specific person. The trouble with my memory, is I don't usually earmark events that are interesting.

If you ask me that question, and I just talked to you last week, it's much easier to give a detailed answer because less will have turned into a sort of blur.

But yes, sometimes I feel something isn't clicking anymore with someone I haven't seen in years, it feels really really weird to talk to them. I feel like we're miles apart. Sometimes talking with them suddenly becomes annoying because of this feeling of being on different planes. It makes me question if we were ever even on the same plane to start with...did we ever have that much in commmon? Was there ever anything beyond a surface-level interaction? When I discover that there wasn't, that the two of us never really got beyond the "enjoyable acquaintance level", I feel less inclined to work to bring the relationship back to a cohesive whole.

The trouble is...I don't always know if I'm deluding myself or if I'm correct in what I'm perceiving.

Yet, there are some people who I've lost contact with and when I suddenly talk to them again, it's easy and fluid and relaxed and I like seeing them again and talking to them again even though everything is different. I think that's the difference...is somewhere with that person there was some small connection on a deeper level. And eventhough time has separated interaction between us, that connection is still there and makes it easier to pick up right where we left off.
 

Orangey

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I suppose if an INFJ has a lot of internal securities, he/she might be less apt to hold an objective/empathetic viewpoint about the intent behind your behaviors/actions, however personally, as I crave connection and mutual understanding in all relationships, I tend to clarify- even over clarify with people, regarding motivations behind the things they say and what their personal meaning is. I don't want to misunderstand, take offense, and pull up the drawbridge/lower the gates, and leave someone standing outside, scratching their head saying, "wtf did I do?!" I've been on the other end of such misunderstandings, albeit rarely & only really with emotionally unbalanced people, but regardless, it's unpleasant to feel misunderstood, and I've lived most of my life that way in some aspect or another, and it's something I'd never want to inadvertently do to someone else.

The defensive responses you mention immediately reminded me of the few ISFJs in my life. A few other Sensing types as well. I'm basing this generalization on my overall narrow scope of experience, however, so I won't declare it holds any truth. Just possibility of a pattern, here. They seem to harp on word usage moreso than the intuitives I've come across. Arguing/focusing attention on semantics vs. syntax; not seeing the forest for the trees, etc.

I can understand how one could easily take offense/misinterpret when they're only focusing on one small segment of the whole. This doesn't seem to correlate with INFJs & other iNtuitives generally being "global learners." I know that, for me, at least, that generalization applies to how I analyze the world around me. I need the whole picture to process and interpret overall meaning. At least, that's what I'm most comfortable with.

Well, this is more the thing that I'm talking about. It's not that she took offense at all those examples that I gave, which she might not have (I know she did for some, but for others she is just so inexpressive that I couldn't know for sure). It's rather that, in forming an explanation for her intermittently cold or reserved communication with me, I cited these as things that she could have cumulatively added up over time to infer that I didn't like her that much.

However, Sensors are generally most comfortable learning sequentially, more linear, thus bringing more analytical focus to clear, concrete details (like word usage or specific behaviors during specific instances), as opposed to seeking patterns within the chaos like iNtuitives.

Not that Sensors are incapable of intuiting, it's just not their natural preference for taking in data. And vice versa.. like I said, it's all a general spectrum. And based on the overall picture you've offered, along with my own interactions with them, she seems more ISFJ to me than INFJ...

Well her problem with word usage comes mostly from her strong belief in the ability of words to have deep impact on our consciousnesses, as she believes that language is what undergirds our perceptions of reality. Yes, she's one of those language = everything people. But I seriously don't think she's a sensor, and mostly because her way of thinking (or what she expresses of it) is so abstract. She internalizes the philosophical writings of philosophers such as Hegel or Derrida and tells us that they made perfect sense to her (not in a boasting way but because they described things in words that she personally intuited at earlier times during her life). And she doesn't do sequences (literally, she has an aversion to writers who are too linear).

Having to rebuild everytime you hang out, unlike your interaction with your INTJ friend, denotes a kind of linear processing of interacting, I think. Intuitives are ok with the mental fireworks. It may take awhile for an INFJ to get to know/trust you, but once you have that, you're in. You don't have to go back over familiarizing yourselves with the details just because of things like time and distance. You get the big picture, and that's all that counts.

Well, the issue is that I don't think she trusts me (and I don't trust her, but I don't trust anyone, not even the INTJ, so that's not the only factor). Also others here have confirmed that the 'rebuilding the relationship' thing applies to them and their interactions with INFJs as well.

If she is an ISFJ, then it seems like an INTP would be at a significant disadvantage when it comes to fluid communication. Ultimately I suppose it would come down to whether or not you have the patience & will to work toward overcoming these mental language barriers.. and if she's willing to acknowledge them and do so, as well.

Otherwise it doesn't sound like either of you benefit much, overall, from a friendship. It's about connection; not simply appreciation of differences, but learning from them. This applies to every type, but that kinda goes without saying, I figure.

Of course, but in describing the problem I have omitted the positive stuff, which probably leads to your interpretation of an overall negative picture. I very frequently find that her perspective is helpful, and I value the way that she thinks. And she appreciates my joking if it is more tame and not aimed at her.

My problem is explaining the cause of the intermittent drops and spikes in our communication, particularly at extremes like after a vacation or long period of time without interacting.
 

the state i am in

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Well her problem with word usage comes mostly from her strong belief in the ability of words to have deep impact on our consciousnesses, as she believes that language is what undergirds our perceptions of reality. Yes, she's one of those language = everything people. But I seriously don't think she's a sensor, and mostly because her way of thinking (or what she expresses of it) is so abstract. She internalizes the philosophical writings of philosophers such as Hegel or Derrida and tells us that they made perfect sense to her (not in a boasting way but because they described things in words that she personally intuited at earlier times during her life). And she doesn't do sequences (literally, she has an aversion to writers who are too linear).

definitely NOT an S.

derrida: intertextuality, absence/presence, deconstruction, sign me up! sructures sign and play in the discourse of the human sciences is a great article. "the center is not the center." tell her to check out deleuze, he's by far the most interesting, cleanest thinking continental philosopher. he fixes everything.

Well, the issue is that I don't think she trusts me (and I don't trust her, but I don't trust anyone, not even the INTJ, so that's not the only factor). Also others here have confirmed that the 'rebuilding the relationship' thing applies to them and their interactions with INFJs as well.

My problem is explaining the cause of the intermittent drops and spikes in our communication, particularly at extremes like after a vacation or long period of time without interacting.

so many causes. lack of trust. insecurity. difficulty with knowing where she stands with you. i have trouble with intp at times myself, the lack of tangible (read: expressed) feeling frustrates me and i have to have enough of my own to carry me thru the interaction. if i don't, i go elsewhere.

infj can be a very very moody bunch. we can be very reticent. we have a wide range of internal experience and as such we can be found in many very different places within our own interior. things change very quickly for us, yet it doesn't show on the outside. sometimes (ok ok often) i just need someone else to thaw me out.

but this is usually not their (intps) forte. building trust and warmth is not always natural with them bc our primary process for doing this is Fe. and this, the expression of feeling, body language, emotional communication, etc, is usually underdeveloped for intp.

i enjoy intps bc they have often have an organized conceptual environment and a wide and diverse knowledge base. plus i can connect dots in huge clusters and still be coherent to them. but i spend time with them generally more when i am feeling expansive and want to converse mentally. learn and explore something. i am too emotionally scattered at other times, and we are not well-equipped infj + intp to deal with that aspect of life. which for me is often the most pressing.

with that said, when you need to catch up or kinda go thru the thaw-out process, alcohol works. go out for drinks, comradery flows easily.
 

Lexicon

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Well, this is more the thing that I'm talking about. It's not that she took offense at all those examples that I gave, which she might not have (I know she did for some, but for others she is just so inexpressive that I couldn't know for sure). It's rather that, in forming an explanation for her intermittently cold or reserved communication with me, I cited these as things that she could have cumulatively added up over time to infer that I didn't like her that much.



Well her problem with word usage comes mostly from her strong belief in the ability of words to have deep impact on our consciousnesses, as she believes that language is what undergirds our perceptions of reality. Yes, she's one of those language = everything people. But I seriously don't think she's a sensor, and mostly because her way of thinking (or what she expresses of it) is so abstract. She internalizes the philosophical writings of philosophers such as Hegel or Derrida and tells us that they made perfect sense to her (not in a boasting way but because they described things in words that she personally intuited at earlier times during her life). And she doesn't do sequences (literally, she has an aversion to writers who are too linear).



Well, the issue is that I don't think she trusts me (and I don't trust her, but I don't trust anyone, not even the INTJ, so that's not the only factor). Also others here have confirmed that the 'rebuilding the relationship' thing applies to them and their interactions with INFJs as well.



Of course, but in describing the problem I have omitted the positive stuff, which probably leads to your interpretation of an overall negative picture. I very frequently find that her perspective is helpful, and I value the way that she thinks. And she appreciates my joking if it is more tame and not aimed at her.

My problem is explaining the cause of the intermittent drops and spikes in our communication, particularly at extremes like after a vacation or long period of time without interacting.

Yeah, the ISFJ thing was more of a hypothesis than an actual interpretation/conclusion. I wasn't sure I had the whole picture in front of me to work through.. ha, yeah, and the poetry thing did throw me off a bit, because it's incredibly abstract [not that sensing types can't be poets :D]. Thanks for further elaborating.

Now I can see that it's less of a difference in how the info's being taken in (the whole N vs S thing I meandered into), and more of a perception/security issue compromising the interpretation of the situation. I can definitely relate to that.. I used to have a lot of rejection/trust type issues, so I'd misinterpret people's intents/feelings toward me out of my own insecurities. Hard to pick up where you left off when the foundation feels shaky on both ends, and doubly difficult to address that issue at times, because of the trust thing.

Looking back on my own interpersonal relationships, I've also experienced the build/rebuilding with certain friends. A few I pick up right where we left off, and others, we have a strange transitional phase of getting reacquainted/comfortable with one another again, and I suppose it's because I didn't have the whole picture of the person beforehand, to an extent, didn't have sufficient time to build a sense of trust/that deeper bond. The only way I got around that was trying to keep up a more consistent line of communication, so I could get that whole picture, have at least some sort of foundation. It's still tricky from time to time.

I also have friends who might assume I've lost interest in our friendship because of intermittent interactions. Happened a lot when I took on more classes/work hrs/was in theatre productions. Because I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of hurting my friends' feelings inadvertently, I got into the habit of mentioning it to them beforehand if I knew something was coming up specifically that might take priority to interpersonal stuff (not in like, a condescending or pacifying way, just kind of offhand, not directly relating my busy schedule to conflicts). Or, I'd mention that sort of thing immediately upon seeing them again, so I could offer them a clear picture to start with. Making that adjustment on my part usually makes things go a little smoother. I elaborate on whatever I've been up to that's consumed my time/attention, and also express that it's great to see them again, etc. Then they tend to let their guard down and discuss the same kind of stuff, and we're off and running at that point, firing ideas back and forth, and enjoying ourselves, building trust/intimacy.
 

Skyward

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Ah,. that makes a lot of sense, the 'building/rebuilding' thing always seems to happen when I'm focused on making a friendship, not when I'm just moseying around mentally. The friends I make are all because I am mentally comfortable with them (And their family, at this age parents still decide a lot of the rules). And I'm more comfortable moseying (I'm highly P, I always store INFP on tests)

I now understand more of how I reciprocate vibes I get from people. There's a person I talked to some that I usually was less patient with, her saw the sharp edge of my personality more often because he was a lot less sensitive to how people felt. (INTx I think) - My brother gets the sharp edge a lot too (He's likely an ISTJ)
 

Orangey

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definitely NOT an S.

derrida: intertextuality, absence/presence, deconstruction, sign me up! sructures sign and play in the discourse of the human sciences is a great article. "the center is not the center." tell her to check out deleuze, he's by far the most interesting, cleanest thinking continental philosopher. he fixes everything.

Yeah, we actually have a seminar together that involves some Deleuze reading. She was already familiar with some of his work from before as well. I constantly bitch about this stuff because, for the life of me, I cannot understand WTF that guy is talking about. I remember one day she got all worked up because another one of our professors made the joke that Heidegger's (another one of her heroes) thesis can be boiled down to the proposition that "the truth rhymes." I thought it was funny, even though I don't know WTF he's talking about either.

so many causes. lack of trust. insecurity. difficulty with knowing where she stands with you. i have trouble with intp at times myself, the lack of tangible (read: expressed) feeling frustrates me and i have to have enough of my own to carry me thru the interaction. if i don't, i go elsewhere.

Yeah, these are all possibilities. I don't really think it's insecurity...she gets along great with an ENTP mutual acquaintance (who is a derisive smart ass all the time), but there's something about his level of snide-ness that isn't as mocking or abrasive as mine. If she were insecure she'd probably be consistently that way with everyone. It's just me that she exhibits this ambivalent behavior towards, though (while strangely it's just her in my case as well).

infj can be a very very moody bunch. we can be very reticent. we have a wide range of internal experience and as such we can be found in many very different places within our own interior. things change very quickly for us, yet it doesn't show on the outside. sometimes (ok ok often) i just need someone else to thaw me out.

but this is usually not their (intps) forte. building trust and warmth is not always natural with them bc our primary process for doing this is Fe. and this, the expression of feeling, body language, emotional communication, etc, is usually underdeveloped for intp.

No, not my forte unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it). And yeah, she is certainly moody, but she usually apologizes for it later if she recognizes that during her mood she was unintentionally shitting on everyone else in her vicinity (which I find to be an absolutely adorable trait, her hyper-conscientiousness).

i enjoy intps bc they have often have an organized conceptual environment and a wide and diverse knowledge base. plus i can connect dots in huge clusters and still be coherent to them. but i spend time with them generally more when i am feeling expansive and want to converse mentally. learn and explore something. i am too emotionally scattered at other times, and we are not well-equipped infj + intp to deal with that aspect of life. which for me is often the most pressing.

Eh, she's very anti-analytical, but we usually get on fine talking about intellectual ideas. I usually humble myself (she's better read on some topics important to the field) to the point that it makes my "arguing" into more of a friendly inquiry, so this works out.

with that said, when you need to catch up or kinda go thru the thaw-out process, alcohol works. go out for drinks, comradery flows easily.

She doesn't drink. I do, but when I loosen up I tend to lose control over my ability to check my making-fun-of-people tendency, so I don't think this would help me with her too much.

Stuff about friendship re-building

Well, it makes me feel better to know that this is something that's not unusual for an INFJ. Now I just have to find out exactly what it is about my behavior that causes her to act like this. I'll have to start by changing different aspects one-at-a-time to determine which one it is, though she'll definitely know something's up when I start coming off all warm and friendly.

I now understand more of how I reciprocate vibes I get from people. There's a person I talked to some that I usually was less patient with, her saw the sharp edge of my personality more often because he was a lot less sensitive to how people felt. (INTx I think) - My brother gets the sharp edge a lot too (He's likely an ISTJ)

What is this sharp edge of which you speak?
 

A Schnitzel

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I'm not sure what to say. Most of the INFJs I know are good to hang around because I can use my sense of humour indiscriminately without worrying about their feelings since they can understand when I am joking.
 

Orangey

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I'm not sure what to say. Most of the INFJs I know are good to hang around because I can use my sense of humour indiscriminately without worrying about their feelings since they can understand when I am joking.

Well, I kind of hate retreating to this truism, as people frequently do, but not all people of the same type behave the same way. So I can only respond by congratulating you on your great luck in finding such cool and understanding INFJs. Congratulations!
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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So I have recently (within the past six months) become kind-of friends with someone whom I believe to be INFJ. She has a quiet, sober exterior, is sensitive to words (meaning she will get upset by the phrasing of something, even if she knows that the intent behind the words is benign), does not appreciate my joking or ribbing at her playfully, and is basically a super-nice, conscientious person (though admittedly a little over-anxious and anal). .

well, i might have missed someone's quote before mine, but have you considered she might be 'infp'? i find them to be a bit more 'sensitive' and 'over-anxious' than the infjs i know, including myself.

I jokingly ridicule everything and everyone while in her presence. Why, then, would that bother her (the phrasing of the argument was intended to purposely goad people, and thus used exaggerated levels of sarcasm)? This same sort of thing has happened before, many times (with the whole arguments thing, and her continuous misconstrual of my intentionally playful communication as being serious).

i don't mean to be flippant, but just reading this annoys me. i can't imagine being around this behavior, especially in a group setting, which i find annoying anyway. in a group, i just wanna get whatever we have to do accomplished, and i would see innapropriate joking as, well, inappropriate, and counterproductive. if i were expecting it each time, which i would come to do if it was repetitive, i would go into the setting anticipating being annoyed which would make me appear more aloof and distant than normal.

Also, regarding (2), I'm not sure if it's my lack of initiation (of conversation, even, sometimes), but I get the sense that she doesn't always like me.

i always find something about people that i like, but if their behavior annoys me, i will exude that in my body language because i am extremely honest and in sync. yet, because i care excessively about people's feelings, i will not directly say anything, unless i/or my values are pushed too far.

basically, i love people on a one-on-one basis. because of my razor-sharp efficiency, i may not always seem warm or interested in the feelings of people, especially in a group setting. but get me alone and i will be my true, warm self.

also, i LOVE a sense of humor, even biting and cutting and brutal, but, again, in the appropriate setting. and i pick up where i left off with people all the time without having to reinvent the relationship.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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These two paragraphs resonate with my experiences. I find it kind of unique and odd that conversations, after a long period of time end up having to go through the whole 'formal polite conversation' phase once again. Why do people engage in this sort of behaviour and what does it mean?

Question for the INFJs out there. (Apologies for hijacking the thread.)
The paradox that is...

INFJ decides that there is not much in common. INFJ doesn't let other person know what's been happening in their life. Therefore confirming their own belief that things have changed between both people. This cycle seems to occur more often when people haven't spoken to each others for long period of times. All based off my own experience when the INFJ would sometimes comment 'so much has happened' without really going into much depth.

Any identification?

well, i abhor 'formal polite conversation' as meer drivel that keeps that person and myself from talking about real things.

and if i don't go into detail when you ask me "how's it been going?" it's because i want to focus on you, and because i don't think you want to hear what i've really had going on........
 

the state i am in

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she's a card-carrying heideggarian, eh? that's funny. i always refer to him as old man heidegger, but my friend and i were always a little too into it. heidegger went from a phenomenological approach that was very interesting in a lot of accidental ways to a more mystical approach after the Turn. after which he focused on philosophy of language and poetics as the way the world discloses itself to itself. very self-disclosure-y. he used hegelian + nietzsche historical methods to create different epochs of human expression, and situates humanity as the highest voice for which the world can express/understand itself. he's charmingly intj, in that proto-fascist kinda way. derrida uses a lot of the same tools for deconstruction, oppositions and the privileging of one term over the other, to uncover similar processes of disclosure, self-diclosure, and discursive play. it's rooted in a lot of similar techniques albeit in way hipper, freeer, constantly refining itself intp language. deleuze gives it another facelift, cleans up the glaringly silly remnants of old/bad philosophy, and starts to make things fun. it feels like there's an ethic and an aesthetic to it. deleuzians are always the weirdest philosophy kids. and it transposes onto everything. so gloriously open-ended, anti-systematic free and clear conceptualizing.

as for your ongoing conflict, i would also stress that it may be a bit hypocritical, but i have totally different expectations and ways of responding to different people in my life. it's not exactly fair the way i have sometimes expected others to understand why i respond the way that i do. if she is really passionate about the material, or about a specific, sometimes it may still be surprising to others for her to take it personally. i'm not saying this is the case, but i am often much harder on people whose input and attention i desire. i NEVER go thru the like airplane checkpoint process with people (i'm imagining the wand they use) unless i care about them and was then disappointed or felt as if something had gone awry. but if i do it its shows i am unhappy at how our communication is working, but that i still care enough to keep working on it.

i personally enjoy intp and especially intj humor. i can be very very cutting and enjoy the evil of it. however infjs can be a very serious bunch. in my experience with intp (and Ti), the constant sense of irritation that derives is a terrible hatred for stupidity. waste of energy. lack of learning, intelligence, mental perfection, elegance, etc. for infj, our Ni wants things to fit together a certain way, it is especially focused via Fe on the possibilities for people, their feelings, what is important to them, how they should work, what they can do, realizing their creative potential, etc. we get very frustrated when something gets in the way of that, it is not taken seriously, etc. feeling, harmony, almost like a religious zeal, care, etc, these are very important to how we live. and somehow that traverses that can get the ax.

also, i only know one entp, but the kid i know who's an entp is like a million billion times better at Fe than the intps i know. if you wanna be friends with an infj, you're gonna have to pay attention to her feelings more than you think you should have to. we notice all threads of meaning when it comes to how people relate, slight, embarrass, prop up, help, make fun of each other.
 

Orangey

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well, i might have missed someone's quote before mine, but have you considered she might be 'infp'? i find them to be a bit more 'sensitive' and 'over-anxious' than the infjs i know, including myself.

I have considered it. In fact, it's what I first thought that she was, because all I was seeing was the NF part. But she fits the INFJ archetype too well (interested in things like psychoanalysis, poetics *not the act of writing poetry*), has a real pragmatic streak, and is very Fe in her almost compulsive need to help people. Also, she's very naturally responsible and organized, and she has a guilt trip whenever she thinks she's going to let someone down or break their expectations, even if that person will in all probability not care. That's my case for her being INFJ instead of INFP, though I have more stuff if you're not convinced.

i don't mean to be flippant, but just reading this annoys me. i can't imagine being around this behavior, especially in a group setting, which i find annoying anyway. in a group, i just wanna get whatever we have to do accomplished, and i would see innapropriate joking as, well, inappropriate, and counterproductive. if i were expecting it each time, which i would come to do if it was repetitive, i would go into the setting anticipating being annoyed which would make me appear more aloof and distant than normal.

Well, the situation was more like this: one person posts a question on an internet blog, another person responds at length to that question a week later, and then the rest get to respond to that response a week after that. In this instance, she had done the lengthy response, and I had responded to her response. So it wasn't like we all had to meet together to get something done in any cramped amount of time, as I gather you inferred from my quote.

Eh, it's not like I'm an obnoxious loud-mouth constantly blurting out sexual innuendo jokes or anything. I just sometimes make light of ridiculous things that I observe in people, places, things and ideas, usually in a quiet and inconspicuous way that only those nearest me would pick-up on. It usually helps ME ease into communication with others. But as this sometimes (usually if aimed at one of her beloved theories) seems to annoy her as much as your 'jokes in inappropriate places', I will try and be more careful about it.

i always find something about people that i like, but if their behavior annoys me, i will exude that in my body language because i am extremely honest and in sync. yet, because i care excessively about people's feelings, i will not directly say anything, unless i/or my values are pushed too far.

basically, i love people on a one-on-one basis. because of my razor-sharp efficiency, i may not always seem warm or interested in the feelings of people, especially in a group setting. but get me alone and i will be my true, warm self.

This seems like her. She can seem cold at first, but as soon as she gets talking about pretty much anything (and she usually only talks at length about things she finds especially important) you can detect the strong undercurrent of emotion.

also, i LOVE a sense of humor, even biting and cutting and brutal, but, again, in the appropriate setting. and i pick up where i left off with people all the time without having to reinvent the relationship.

Well, would that she had some of your tolerance (even if it only applied to the 'appropriate' setting.)
 

Orangey

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she's a card-carrying heideggarian, eh? that's funny. i always refer to him as old man heidegger, but my friend and i were always a little too into it. heidegger went from a phenomenological approach that was very interesting in a lot of accidental ways to a more mystical approach after the Turn. after which he focused on philosophy of language and poetics as the way the world discloses itself to itself. very self-disclosure-y. he used hegelian + nietzsche historical methods to create different epochs of human expression, and situates humanity as the highest voice for which the world can express/understand itself. he's charmingly intj, in that proto-fascist kinda way. derrida uses a lot of the same tools for deconstruction, oppositions and the privileging of one term over the other, to uncover similar processes of disclosure, self-diclosure, and discursive play. it's rooted in a lot of similar techniques albeit in way hipper, freeer, constantly refining itself intp language. deleuze gives it another facelift, cleans up the glaringly silly remnants of old/bad philosophy, and starts to make things fun. it feels like there's an ethic and an aesthetic to it. deleuzians are always the weirdest philosophy kids. and it transposes onto everything. so gloriously open-ended, anti-systematic free and clear conceptualizing.

Heh, this is right up her alley (though she has a small fit anytime people mention Heidegger's fascism). I admire that people can get this stuff so easily and intuitively. I have to really work at it. What do you study, BTW?

The only thing I've been bothered to retain of Heidegger is one of his claims that being in the world is constituted through language, meaning that language is not merely a tool to be used to refer to a reality, but that the subjective experience of reality (the only experience) is impossible without language. At least that was my gloss.

You INFJs (and a few ENTPs) seem to just love this stuff to death.

as for your ongoing conflict, i would also stress that it may be a bit hypocritical, but i have totally different expectations and ways of responding to different people in my life. it's not exactly fair the way i have sometimes expected others to understand why i respond the way that i do. if she is really passionate about the material, or about a specific, sometimes it may still be surprising to others for her to take it personally. i'm not saying this is the case, but i am often much harder on people whose input and attention i desire. i NEVER go thru the like airplane checkpoint process with people (i'm imagining the wand they use) unless i care about them and was then disappointed or felt as if something had gone awry. but if i do it its shows i am unhappy at how our communication is working, but that i still care enough to keep working on it.

This is interesting to know, thanks for sharing.

i personally enjoy intp and especially intj humor. i can be very very cutting and enjoy the evil of it. however infjs can be a very serious bunch. in my experience with intp (and Ti), the constant sense of irritation that derives is a terrible hatred for stupidity. waste of energy. lack of learning, intelligence, mental perfection, elegance, etc. for infj, our Ni wants things to fit together a certain way, it is especially focused via Fe on the possibilities for people, their feelings, what is important to them, how they should work, what they can do, realizing their creative potential, etc. we get very frustrated when something gets in the way of that, it is not taken seriously, etc. feeling, harmony, almost like a religious zeal, care, etc, these are very important to how we live. and somehow that traverses that can get the ax.

Yeah, I think she recognizes that these are the things that I tend to be critical and derisive about, so she applies that knowledge to any criticism or jokes that I aim at her (or more seriously, to her ideas) and concludes that this is what I must feel about her or her ideas. Of course this is never the case, and I try to reassure her about this in my own way. She behaves exactly as you describe regarding the things that are of importance to INFJs (or to you, at any rate).

also, i only know one entp, but the kid i know who's an entp is like a million billion times better at Fe than the intps i know. if you wanna be friends with an infj, you're gonna have to pay attention to her feelings more than you think you should have to. we notice all threads of meaning when it comes to how people relate, slight, embarrass, prop up, help, make fun of each other.

He is better at Fe. Much, much better. I'm working on it, though. I even wrote an apology email the other week because I had acted kind of rude to the INFJ (I basically hastened out of the room without listening to what she was saying to me, because I was off in la-la land somewhere and in a hurry to get home after class). I'm trying hard not to offend others too much nowadays, because as silly an endeavor as I think this ultimately is, it's honestly something that's necessary if you want to deal effectively with people, which is necessary for my (or basically any) career. Plus I would like some friends here and there.
 

Orangey

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Oh, and it must be INFJ week on the forums.
 

the state i am in

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Heh, this is right up her alley (though she has a small fit anytime people mention Heidegger's fascism). I admire that people can get this stuff so easily and intuitively. I have to really work at it. What do you study, BTW?

The only thing I've been bothered to retain of Heidegger is one of his claims that being in the world is constituted through language, meaning that language is not merely a tool to be used to refer to a reality, but that the subjective experience of reality (the only experience) is impossible without language. At least that was my gloss.

this is absolutely what heidegger means. he goes from being-in-time where he tries to understand the ontological Being thru the being of humans (da-sein), to a changed understanding that human language and poetics specifically are the highest articulation of Being, the highest form of self-disclosure/self-understanding/self-expression the world has produced. and that, as such, they have an ontological status, are a necessary part of the equation that makes up reality, that Being in fact IS the belonging together of language and world.

heidegger is amusing and kind of nostalgic for me, but i find a much deeper and more lasting affinity with deleuze. i like wittgenstein, the anthropologist gregory bateson, henri bergson, the french sociologist pierre bourdieu, and of course jung. derrida is ok too, as if foucault and the science studies writer bruno latour.

i majored in anthropology and religious studies. i was interested in all forms of theory i encountered. my senior year i was moving more towards cultural studies, it was sleeker- the methods were more free and it was rooted in semiotics and hermeneutics in a more directly cultural artifacts art media/medium kind of way, whereas anth is more predicated on cultural practices, ritual, social organization, etc. i was always more interested in art than aborigines.

what about you?

Yeah, I think she recognizes that these are the things that I tend to be critical and derisive about, so she applies that knowledge to any criticism or jokes that I aim at her (or more seriously, to her ideas) and concludes that this is what I must feel about her or her ideas. Of course this is never the case, and I try to reassure her about this in my own way. She behaves exactly as you describe regarding the things that are of importance to INFJs (or to you, at any rate).

inf of both types do this way too much. we at times lose the ability to let go of our self-definitions and idealist frameworks. we misperceive our ideas and our convictions and our concepts as ourselves. especially the ones that don't take a breather and appreciate getting silly at the bar. we take everything personally from every possible angle and every perspective we possibly could. it can be downright ridiculous. i apologize on behalf of myself and others like me.

He is better at Fe. Much, much better. I'm working on it, though. I even wrote an apology email the other week because I had acted kind of rude to the INFJ (I basically hastened out of the room without listening to what she was saying to me, because I was off in la-la land somewhere and in a hurry to get home after class). I'm trying hard not to offend others too much nowadays, because as silly an endeavor as I think this ultimately is, it's honestly something that's necessary if you want to deal effectively with people, which is necessary for my (or basically any) career. Plus I would like some friends here and there.

this is very forgiveable, introverts do this often. there's a lot of mutual interest/attractions in infj intp, so stick with it and something good'll come of it. infj can be paranoid and overprotective of itself, but good faith gestures go a looooong ways. try to thaw her out.
 

ReadingRainbows

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Everyone seems to have these problems with INFJs even the INFJ themselves.
 

Paisley

Strolling Through The Shire
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Well I know when people ask, "what's going on with your life?" and I haven't spoken to them on a regular basis, it's very very hard to me to figure out what to say. Most of the time I don't remember what specifically has happened and I need them to ask something more specific (like "so did you go anywhere interesting or different?" which is easier and less general). The question is so general, I can't help but give a general answer. I hate doing it too, because I know they're expecting me to elaborate, but I would need several minutes to sort of piece together what I recall happening and put flags on events that I deemed worth sharing with that specific person. The trouble with my memory, is I don't usually earmark events that are interesting.

If you ask me that question, and I just talked to you last week, it's much easier to give a detailed answer because less will have turned into a sort of blur.

But yes, sometimes I feel something isn't clicking anymore with someone I haven't seen in years, it feels really really weird to talk to them. I feel like we're miles apart. Sometimes talking with them suddenly becomes annoying because of this feeling of being on different planes. It makes me question if we were ever even on the same plane to start with...did we ever have that much in commmon? Was there ever anything beyond a surface-level interaction? When I discover that there wasn't, that the two of us never really got beyond the "enjoyable acquaintance level", I feel less inclined to work to bring the relationship back to a cohesive whole.

The trouble is...I don't always know if I'm deluding myself or if I'm correct in what I'm perceiving.

Yet, there are some people who I've lost contact with and when I suddenly talk to them again, it's easy and fluid and relaxed and I like seeing them again and talking to them again even though everything is different. I think that's the difference...is somewhere with that person there was some small connection on a deeper level. And eventhough time has separated interaction between us, that connection is still there and makes it easier to pick up right where we left off.

I totally resonate with this. I hate it when people ask "what's going on with your life?" It's so ridiculous, I'd rather they just ask the immediate, "How're you?" of right now, so I could at least give an answer beyond, "Nothing." The other social custom I hate is the "So, how was your weekend?" My inside response is, "What the fuck are you talking about? What's the difference between the weekend and the weekday? Like really? Not that hell of a lot!" As well, it's only a select few I would talk to about such things anyway, and I almost feel like random people asking that question are just prying and looking for dirt on me, so I'm dismissive, but curteous.

How many INFJ guys, have a hideous internal monologue, a speech filter if you will?

Most notiably evident when inebriation is reached........Barenaked Ladies playing in the background, "when I discovered alcohol"........

I find I'm constantly filtering and editing everything I say and doing social damage control when asked those types of questions and putting up with those types of people who need to make small talk. I'd rather people ask interesting questions, like, "I wanted to pick your brain about something" and then a question of some greater relevance than the mundane.

Depth is important, because people who live in shallow simple waters I won't confide with much of a response and won't become much more than an acquaintance with. Friendly, but hardly friends. Associations are few and far between.
 

Samvega

Buddhist Misanthrope
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The I the S the F the J spells trouble! No for real, she sounds like an unhealthy type for sure, I would figure out the X, I'm betting you'll find it between the I and the F. Totally 100% sounds like an ISFJ to me, I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out her not sounding very INFJ.
 

cascadeco

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The I the S the F the J spells trouble! No for real, she sounds like an unhealthy type for sure, I would figure out the X, I'm betting you'll find it between the I and the F. Totally 100% sounds like an ISFJ to me, I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out her not sounding very INFJ.

Or perhaps you have a misunderstanding of INFJ, or have elevated them too much in your mind, and don't want to face the possibility that INFJ's can have negative sides to them. ;)

I don't feel I'm in a position to judge what type she is based on what Orangey writes, but would go off of Orangey's decisions on her type before my own, since Orangey actually knows her! I think most of us are just answering questions based on our own experiences and how WE process/react to things.
 
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