[NF] NF idealism - patronizing, arrogant, hypocritical, naiive?

[proteanmix]

Well, sometimes maybe. But usually, they aren't confident enough in their emotions to go on the defensive about them. They're more likely to either deal with them by worrying too much over them and becoming overwhelmed, or denying the influence of them. You can tell when either is happening.

If something an NT does looks like bullying towards a Feeling type, it's probably just that they are paying attention to their argument and their logic, and not enough to the personal side. A feeling type might incorrectly interpret something as bullying, when it's really just obliviousness and apathy for emotional concerns, which violate the basis of the feeling type's reality, especially if they're among the stronger Feeling types.

How are you comfortably able to assert that? If you're aware of a vulnerability within yourself anyone with a smidgen of instinct to self-protect and defend knows that they need to cover their weakness. Someone who is uncomfortable expressing their emotions and uncomfortable with others expressing their emotions would find ways to relieve themselves of their discomfort in either passive or aggressive means. Denying the influence of emotions

As far as NT bullying is concerned, my only sample of NTs large enough to make any conclusions is online. I see bullying quite frequently and it's merciless. Physically hitting someone is not the only way of bullying and intimidating another person. The thing that I notice with NTs is if you say that the bullying is hurting you (emotionally) then your reasons are quickly invalidated as illogical. And give feelers more credit, I know when someone is being themselves or being jackasses. Someone who is oblivious and then on top of that APATHETIC (!) to the impact of the actions on other people sound like sociopaths. You do a disservice to NTs by saying that. I think when they want to bully, they are very aware the effects their actions have on other people. That's the whole point of bullying. You don't antagonize someone that you know won't be responsive and you don't go after someone who can possibly beat you.

 

[ptgatsby]

As far as NT bullying is concerned, my only sample of NTs large enough to make any conclusions is online. I see bullying quite frequently and it's merciless. Physically hitting someone is not the only way of bullying and intimidating another person. The thing that I notice with NTs is if you say that the bullying is hurting you (emotionally) then your reasons are quickly invalidated as illogical. And give feelers more credit, I know when someone is being themselves or being jackasses. Someone who is oblivious and then on top of that APATHETIC (!) to the impact of the actions on other people sound like sociopaths. You do a disservice to NTs by saying that. I think when they want to bully, they are very aware the effects their actions have on other people. That's the whole point of bullying. You don't antagonize someone that you know won't be responsive and you don't go after someone who can possibly beat you.

This is very accurate - it can best be summed up as a lack of empathy, which is the one trait that seems to most define bullying behaviour (and even associated behaviours, like support and passiveness).

T's are prone to having a lack of empathy, hence bully. NTs are no different. If anything, they are worse because of the link between having been bullied/marginalized and doing it to others, which NTs seem to suffer from (although it is actually the "P" bit that would seem to make them vulnerable, not the N).

 

[Athenian200]

The thing that I notice with NTs is if you say that the bullying is hurting you (emotionally) then your reasons are quickly invalidated as illogical.

Well, that's because you aren't responding well, although I grant that they could have given you a more empathetic response to your pain than simply "illogical." The best response to an NT is to create a logically formulated counterargument to their assertion, and do your best not to take their criticisms personally, while presuming that they are behaving the same way.

Someone who is oblivious and then on top of that APATHETIC (!) to the impact of the actions on other people sound like sociopaths. You do a disservice to NTs by saying that. I think when they want to bully, they are very aware the effects their actions have on other people. That's the whole point of bullying. You don't antagonize someone that you know won't be responsive and you don't go after someone who can possibly beat you.

First, we are talking about the NT's who bully people in the first place, who are most likely unhealthy variants of the NT temperament, who may well have some sociopath tendencies. An extreme NT would be one who neglects Feeling and Sensing to ridiculous degrees. Saying that such a person would be apathetic and oblivious would be not insulting to the vast majority of NT's, who are very likely more balanced than that.

Could you give an example of what sort of bullying you're talking about? How did the NT(s) in question bully the people in question specifically?

 

[Natrushka]

T's are prone to having a lack of empathy, hence bully. NTs are no different.

I wonder if it might be worse than that. What if they don't suffer from a lack of empathy, they choose not to be empathetic?

 

[ptgatsby]

I wonder if it might be worse than that. What if they don't suffer from a lack of empathy, they choose not to be empathetic?

That is often the case... Or rather, it is often conditioning that causes one to act a certain way and without the empathy barrier, there is no reason not to harm others. That means that we can intentionally ignore or push away the empathetic reactions.

Ever wondered where that T>F thing comes from? Right. Letting the "F" out would mean accepting that you are hurting other people and therefore having to change. Putting a "logical" objective shell around that behaviour makes it easy. That's why many "abusive" Ts are so afraid of the other side - it would make them face the unpleasant reality of their own behaviour.

One surprising thing is that bullies that have their actions reflected on themselves tend to stop depending on their degree of empathy. In other words, while being bullied conditions you to act in a similar way, without the core lack of empathy, all it takes is awareness. IOW, we do pick our actions, absolutely. Most are blind to it, or choose to be blind to it.

I had a very painful lesson in this when I was bullied as a child and started doing it to others in small ways. I wish I had learnt it as a kid rather than being told years later... but the shift in awareness was very painful... so I can speak as to the effectiveness.

 

[DarkestRose]

When I interacted on this forum (years ago) whose atmosphere was very immature, many people there thought that there was something horribly wrong about my appalled reaction to their online bullying. Some NTs there used to choose a victim who was younger and dumber than them, possibly an S or an F, and start driving the victim angry, and so on. So in in the end it nearly seemed "justified" from some point of view to disdain the victim because (s)he *was* behaving badly, but that was in fact due to systematic provocation.

I sort of know what you mean by this. I used to find NT types a bit overwhelming because they seemed to argue simply for the sake of it, which I saw an unnecessary when people could be engaged in a harmonious discussion. I was also put off by NTs who said things more abrasively or bluntly. Additionally, I found them to be overcritical about what was, to me, something petty, but to them, a logical error that needed correction. So I had decided that I didn't get along well with NTs (which is ironic now considering that I like an INTP.)

But I think the MBTI tool is useful for understanding some of the inner-workings of a person and trying to see things from their point of view. The MBTI helped me in understanding a lot of people that beforehand I had written off as lacking compassion. But I think it helps to really aim to understand people that you feel disdain for and try to work for a bias towards mercy when they start to annoy you. A lot of NT characteristics that used to bother me a lot, really don't bother me much at all anymore, so I think it's a stategy that works.

 

[runvardh]

That is often the case... Or rather, it is often conditioning that causes one to act a certain way and without the empathy barrier, there is no reason not to harm others. That means that we can intentionally ignore or push away the empathetic reactions.

Ever wondered where that T>F thing comes from? Right. Letting the "F" out would mean accepting that you are hurting other people and therefore having to change. Putting a "logical" objective shell around that behaviour makes it easy. That's why many "abusive" Ts are so afraid of the other side - it would make them face the unpleasant reality of their own behaviour.

One surprising thing is that bullies that have their actions reflected on themselves tend to stop depending on their degree of empathy. In other words, while being bullied conditions you to act in a similar way, without the core lack of empathy, all it takes is awareness. IOW, we do pick our actions, absolutely. Most are blind to it, or choose to be blind to it.

I had a very painful lesson in this when I was bullied as a child and started doing it to others in small ways. I wish I had learnt it as a kid rather than being told years later... but the shift in awareness was very painful... so I can speak as to the effectiveness.

Interesting, I ended up picking apart bullies instead; I took an odd pleasure in displaying them in compromizing positions. I remember a new guy at my school one year decided to pick on everyone else and had the size to do it. Only took me two months to make his misery a top priority. Strange how I never got suspended yet he never returned after Christmas break.

 

[DarkestRose]

^That kind of thing always bothers me though. If it was wrong for him to pick on somebody, why is right to pick on him? Maybe he felt self-justified too. Motivation to hurt or humilate someone is just cruelty.

 

[heart]

^That kind of thing always bothers me though. If it was wrong for him to pick on somebody, why is right to pick on him? Maybe he felt self-justified too. Motivation to hurt or humilate someone is just cruelty.

When adults do nothing to stop bullies (and in fact often support the bullying type culture), then what should children do, sit around have a bleeding heart for those who bully them? If someone can find a way to take a bully down and do what the adults around them refuse to do, take care of the situation, how can they be faulted?

 

[substitute]

In the case of the bully/victim that you mentioned above, I think I'd definately want to stick up for the underdog as I usually do, but I don't think I'd do it in a way that also reprimanded the bully.

See, my take on it would be that if the bully is bullying, then he already knows it's wrong, bad, nasty, unfair etc - that's the whole point of why he's doing it - and he's enjoying it. Me telling him off isn't going to make him suddenly say "Oh, wow, you know what, I never thought of it that way, you're right, I'll stop bullying from now on!" is it? It'll probably just mean that I'll be next... or that he'll do it all the harder when I'm around just to get on my nerves.

My tactic would probably be to throw in a comment that makes the bully look like a fool - to basically bully him back a little bit, in a way that made it so that if he did anything but walk away, he'd look an utter prick. Bullying is all about someone's poor self image, them wanting to put someone else down to make themselves (as they perceive it) look better. Looking foolish is the thing they fear most - the threat of that, rather than a moral lecture, is far more likely to put them off picking on you or that person in future, or anyone else when you're around.

Reprimanding him is just the kind of attention he wants - the 'bad boy' image, so it'll just encourage him, it'll just make him all the more likely to vamp it up, seeing your reprimand as a challenge to his 'face' that has to be dealt with, and he'd get off on being all like "do I look bothered?" and being seen to dismiss your moralistic attitude.

I think arrogant is an unfair word for what your approach is, but certainly naive - I think the naivite is in the part where you fail to realise or fully accept that the bully doesn't WANT to be nice, so telling him he's not will just make him laugh, rather than feel ashamed or whatever.

 

[ptgatsby]

When adults do nothing to stop bullies (and in fact often support the bullying type culture), then what should children do, sit around have a bleeding heart for those who bully them? If someone can find a way to take a bully down and do what the adults around them refuse to do, take care of the situation, how can they be faulted?

I believe the correct response is to tell them it isn't appropriate, then beat the crap out of them the next time it happens. Standing up is the correct response.

The incorrect version of this is to "turn the tables" - to do it behind their back, etc. Standing up to them is a net positive solution as it tends to end the bullying as well as offer some feedback to the bully, hopefully ending the results.

At that point, the ones that are really guilty are the ones that support the bully after he has been stood up against. I don't see any real excuse for their behaviour.

 

[INTJMom]

I started a thread on another forum about several subjects. One of the questions was: "Is it justified to perceive [NF] idealism negatively as an arrogant, patronizing, hypocritical and naive attitude, as some people do?"

Personally, I don't think that's very nice.
Why should a person be offended by idealism?

But I guess because I am idealistic, I like idealism.

 

[Arandur]

Being as I've had to put up with two disgustingly idealistic close friends for a very long time, I can't say I'm very fond of idealism. I think it's the epitome of naivete, though I'm sure there are idealistically-minded folk out there who don't conform to my disgruntled generalization.

 

[INTJMom]

I have always stood up to bullies.
When I was in the 3rd grade, we had a troubled boy move to our school - Marcel.
he bullied a lot of the kids, including me.
One day, on the way home from school,
he pulled the hat off my head, filled it with mud and threw it in the woods.
I felt helpless when he bullied me.

But one day I saw him bullying one of the boys -
(unliked, made fun of, wimpy boy)
He had chased him up a road, throwing rocks at him.
The boy was crying.
I went right up to Marcel the bully.
I pushed him, I yelled at him, and I told him to stop it!
He left.

I've always been proud of myself for that.
Actually, I don't remember Marcel messing with me again after that either.

An NTs biggest fear is being taken advantage of.
Perhaps that is what made me feel it was so wrong for the bully to overpower the other boy that way.
Unfair advantage. Just wrong.

 

[cafe]

Being as I've had to put up with two disgustingly idealistic close friends for a very long time, I can't say I'm very fond of idealism. I think it's the epitome of naivete, though I'm sure there are idealistically-minded folk out there who don't conform to my disgruntled generalization.

Why would you have to put up with friends you dislike?

 

[INTJMom]

Being as I've had to put up with two disgustingly idealistic close friends for a very long time, I can't say I'm very fond of idealism. I think it's the epitome of naivete, though I'm sure there are idealistically-minded folk out there who don't conform to my disgruntled generalization.

I know I'm naïve.
When I am too naïve or too idealistic,
I try to incorporate the advice of the people in my life who have more common sense than I.

Yet sometimes I am driven to attempt my ideal anyway - just in case it works.
So I can enjoy the pleasure of it.

 

[Arandur]

Why would you have to put up with friends you dislike?

I don't dislike them as a whole. I just dislike how they let their idealism run their lives. Because of it, they're going down a self-destructive path hand-in-hand that, no matter what I say to them, they won't listen to a logical word I say to try and turn them from it.

I guess it's through my frustration that I dislike their idealism, simply because I can't save them from it.

 

[cafe]

I don't dislike them as a whole. I just dislike how they let their idealism run their lives. Because of it, they're going down a self-destructive path hand-in-hand that, no matter what I say to them, they won't listen to a logical word I say to try and turn them from it.

I guess it's through my frustration that I dislike their idealism, simply because I can't save them from it.

I think that normally cures itself most of the way by the mid-twenties. It never totally goes away, but we go cynical fairly easily because we are so idealistic.

 

[Metamorphosis]

I think idealists have their place.

We pragmatists (particularly INTJs) keep everything effective and efficient. We do the dirty work that makes things happen and give idealists their safe comfortable lives. In return, they keep us in check from going overboard. It doesn't seem like much, but it is important.

 

[proteanmix]

I think that normally cures itself most of the way by the mid-twenties. It never totally goes away, but we go cynical fairly easily because we are so idealistic.

So sadly true.