[Fe] Fe oddness

[sculpting]

"People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

After a few interactions with ENFJs I often start to make them a little batty. They become very irritated with me and then seem confused why I just dont get it. I found the above qoute and I wonder if it is becuase I feel no need to fit in a consistant "social role". I sort of wonder and change identity like underwear as needed. So they start off assigning me a role, I inadvertantly modify my role, whcih offends them, then they zoom in for reassignment, which I just ignore.

I also then "feel" this assignment process and it gets my hackles up in arms. It feels manipulative to me.

Thoughts?

 

[garbage]

To me, Fe just seems so.. confining. It seems to come with the person's own definition of what someone they label as, say, a "friend" or "roommate" is "supposed" to be and do. When we fail to live up to those expectations.. :steam:

I definitely experience the same phenomenon that you do.. that my identity is rather fluid and takes on the characteristics of the environment or other people that I'm around. So when I'm around a Fe-dom that I have some relationship with, and we're out and about in different environments, he may not understand why I don't always carry out the social role that he's constructed for me.

Luckily, understanding this difference has allowed me to communicate to Fe-dominants in a way that avoids this problem in the first place..

 

[Lady_X]

yeah...i do know what you mean and i think my enfp sister must totally be an enfj...she does that...she's always trying to direct activities...and i just say you go ahead and do what you want...i'm going to do this instead...i don't like being told what to do.

 

[garbage]

and i just say you go ahead and do what you want...i'm going to do this instead...

You have no idea how many times I've said this, mostly in response to something like "But we're supposed to do this together! We're friends!!"

 

[Siegfried]

Haha, yea I see what you mean, I think it should be flexible. Its best if one does what is comfortable with, no need to worry about that from me.

 

[Kalach]

After a few interactions with ENFJs I often start to make them a little batty. They become very irritated with me and then seem confused why I just dont get it. I found the above qoute and I wonder if it is becuase I feel no need to fit in a consistant "social role". I sort of wonder and change identity like underwear as needed. So they start off assigning me a role, I inadvertantly modify my role, whcih offends them, then they zoom in for reassignment, which I just ignore.

It's not that odd, is it? They're Js, they direct. And they're people-focused, so they direct people.

I have the idea, actually, that Fe just is directive, even if it's not in a dominant position. Te probably is too.

The thing I find odd about Fe is the seeming preference for secrecy. I don't know if it's just what it looks like to me, but it, to me, looks like Fe really prefers to function behind the scenes... Fe actually wants to keep its management of other people hidden. (And it's about as hidden as a sledge-hammer in your pocket, but there you go.)





(And Greed, you're slightly more ENFP than I am, but still...)

 

[Lightyear]

You have no idea how many times I've said this, mostly in response to something like "But we're supposed to do this together! We're friends!!"

I had an unhealthy ESFJ friend who had this kind of reasoning. "You are supposed to do this and this for me, we're friends!" To me that was pure emotional manipulation which I can spot a mile away and which is one of the things I can't stand (since as a F it can really mess with me). As an INFJ I have a strong Fe too but I really try not to use it in an unhealthy way.

 

[sculpting]

It's not that odd, is it? They're Js, they direct. And they're people-focused, so they direct people.

I have the idea, actually, that Fe just is directive, even if it's not in a dominant position. Te probably is too.

The thing I find odd about Fe is the seeming preference for secrecy. I don't know if it's just what it looks like to me, but it, to me, looks like Fe really prefers to function behind the scenes... Fe actually wants to keep its management of other people hidden. (And it's about as hidden as a sledge-hammer in your pocket, but there you go.)




(And Greed, you're slightly more ENFP than I am, but still...)

It's becuase it would be "bad" to manipulate people but if its for thier own good, then it's okay to do. Also other chunks of the above text I chopped from talked about how by the Fe defining you to a certain social role it also defines them to a specific social role in relation to you. However that constitutes manipulation which most folks think is bad.

So it has to at least try and be sneaky...

 

[Poki]

A dominant Fe will read people and figure out what it is that they are good at. They will then rely on those people to help others with that thing. Try being in a position where they rely on you to help them help you and in turn helping you benefits them.

 

[sculpting]

Ive been there and I make them twitch-literally-they start like twitching and stuff. There eyes get a little blinky too.

It may be that I LIKE to change in midstream in a feely fun way, yet that is what they strive to control and mold. Twitch!

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, in a lesser position, I used Fe to help me know how to respond to people.

It's not that I like to force people into a category, it's simply that operating by Ti means unless I know the "definition" of someone (i.e. their essence as a person), which also demands reading up and/or prior experience of them in some way, I have no idea how to interact with them and thus I get very anxious.

It's usually easier to figure out a role first, if you're introverted and meeting strangers.

So you interact with them in the way their role casts them, then be open to change as you get to know more about them and can evaluate/assess by your preferred function instead of the more obvious social role they've been cast in.

When I was younger, ESFJ types used to upset me, but I think that was the problem with the ESFJ and not with me necessarily. Nowadays I find ExFJ pretty easy to adjust to, easier than Fi-oriented people sometimes. Fe as a primary will adjust to changing circumstances more easily than P-primary introverts tend to.

 

[Skyward]

As more of an Ni > Ti > Fe (And quite introverted) INFJ, I respond quicker to the vibes of people, I'm less interested in moving them in all situations, but trying to make them (And myself) evolve. I usually try and set a place where the person is comfortable around me, though I need to be comfortable myself. I don't push unless I feel an actual need.

I do put the aforementioned labels on people, but I'm more busy trying to put the RIGHT label on them than using the label to move them around. I could spend a good half hour spending time trying to decide if a friend of mine is actually a friend or instead is a 'good acquaintance.'

I have yet to meet any EFJs (My school has nearly no EJs).

 

[proteanmix]

"People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

After a few interactions with ENFJs I often start to make them a little batty. They become very irritated with me and then seem confused why I just dont get it. I found the above qoute and I wonder if it is becuase I feel no need to fit in a consistant "social role". I sort of wonder and change identity like underwear as needed. So they start off assigning me a role, I inadvertantly modify my role, whcih offends them, then they zoom in for reassignment, which I just ignore.

I also then "feel" this assignment process and it gets my hackles up in arms. It feels manipulative to me.

Thoughts?

I've read the stuff on the Lenore Thompson wiki about extroverted feeling and you can definitely tell it's written by someone who does not use Fe as either a dominant or auxiliary function. I think this is the Fe feels to the writer not how a person whose uses it in either of those positions.

What I will say about social roles is (and I don't know if this is a particularly Fe thing or not) we all have social roles whether or not you want to step into them is up to you, but can you really be surprised at people for being baffled at you? You're someone's "daughter," "sister," "friend," "employee," "neighbor," "customer," whatever.

There are implicit expectations based role you inhabit at a particular moment or in relation to another person. We know the way a mother "should" act towards her children and we can identify when a mother isn't acting the way she's supposed to. We say that's not how a mother treats her children, or that's not how you treat a friend, or they're a good/bad leader. When we do that, we're separating the role from the person inhabiting the role and evaluating the person against their standards and expectations of that particular role. We can change roles on a nearly hourly basis depending on who you're interacting and what the situation calls for. You don't have any one particular role but you often step out of one and into another.

You say you change roles like underwear, but I'm curious as to when you change them and if the situation merits the change, e.g you're at work or some situation that's not exactly casual. I know quite a few ENFPs and I've seen them span several moods in the space of an hour, and yeah it's frustrating because there's no consistency. So what do you mean when you say you're always changing your social role? If the ENFJs you're interacting are all baffled by your behavior I'd first of all wonder why at least two (?) or more people all had the same reaction to me. They may view you as being inconsistent in how you present yourself and are probably trying to figure out how to interact with you. Based on what you said, it seems like you change just to keep them guessing, which sounds like a childish game. I'd begin to think you're changing as a smokescreen or something which wouldn't exactly lead to a congenial relationship, but that may not be what you're aiming for.

 

[Domino]

"People with developed Fe tend to create implied bargains with other people about what sort of role they will play in regard to each other. They make an opening "bid" where they cast the other person in a positive role, e.g. "Would you be willing to spare a moment of your time to share your expertise with me?", casting the other person as an expert and a very important person. The implied contract is that if they treat you as a very important person, then you will each have very satisfying social roles. But if you get out of line, then you will withdraw your willingness to cast them in that role. Each line where you play the other person up thus creates a sort of debt: now they "owe" you some response that makes you important."

After a few interactions with ENFJs I often start to make them a little batty. They become very irritated with me and then seem confused why I just dont get it. I found the above qoute and I wonder if it is becuase I feel no need to fit in a consistant "social role". I sort of wonder and change identity like underwear as needed. So they start off assigning me a role, I inadvertantly modify my role, whcih offends them, then they zoom in for reassignment, which I just ignore.

I also then "feel" this assignment process and it gets my hackles up in arms. It feels manipulative to me.

Thoughts?

It's because I grabbed your boob, isn't it?

 

[Apollanaut]

Fe gets a bad press on this forum. I see all sorts of loaded, negative terms like "sneaky", "manipulative" and "insincere" linked to this important function. You sort of expect that from NT's, but NFPs should know better!

How else are we supposed to make any sort of initial contact with a person without at least some idea of their social role? When well-developed, Fe recognises that of course a person is not rigidly defined by their social role, and that we all use multiple roles in our daily lives.

However, Fe does need some familiar cues or stable points of reference if it is to stand a chance of achieving one of its deeper goals: to achieve a state of rapport with another person.

Only when we have true rapport with someone can we begin to really understand and communicate with them. Rapport also allows us to share parts of ourselves with another person and is the basis of empathy and tolerance. In our cynical modern world, the initial attempts of anyone attempting to make contact using Fe are frequently misread as self-serving or manipulative.

However, that person is actually putting a part of themself out there for others to see and respond to; an offering of the Self in the hope that others will accept their "gift" and thereby establish a mutually beneficial relationship. This act involves an element of vulnerability and risk. The offering may be spurned, rejected, ignored or (worst of all) insulted, which is one reason why FJ types get so upset when all their attempts at contact are continually rebuffed.

Reflect on this: if it weren't for Extraverted Feeling, we wouldn't even have a "society" in the first place (or at least one which most people would want to be a part of)!

Oh, I'm really on my soapbox now!

Maybe it's time for all us underappreciated FJ types of the world to unite and rise up to create a better society. Imagine this: World Conquest not through war or violence, but by enforced politeness, good manners and mutual respect!

 

[Costrin]

What I will say about social roles is (and I don't know if this is a particularly Fe thing or not) we all have social roles whether or not you want to step into them is up to you, but can you really be surprised at people for being baffled at you? You're someone's "daughter," "sister," "friend," "employee," "neighbor," "customer," whatever.

Yeah, you're always in multiple roles (possibly conflicting) at all times.

There are implicit expectations based role you inhabit at a particular moment or in relation to another person. We know the way a mother "should" act towards her children and we can identify when a mother isn't acting the way she's supposed to. We say that's not how a mother treats her children, or that's not how you treat a friend, or they're a good/bad leader. When we do that, we're separating the role from the person inhabiting the role and evaluating the person against their standards and expectations of that particular role. We can change roles on a nearly hourly basis depending on who you're interacting and what the situation calls for. You don't have any one particular role but you often step out of one and into another.

Actually, I don't say that sort of stuff very often. Another thing is, these roles have prescribed behaviours, but I don't tend to see them that way (and most of them time, these roles don't even cross my mind. I define each person individually and specific to them). I see them more by prescribed end results. There is no set way to be a mother, but a good mother can be determined by the happiness of the child, by how well they turn out (which is of course subjective also). There is no set way to act as a friend, but if the other person enjoys interacting with you, then that's all that matters.

You say you change roles like underwear, but I'm curious as to when you change them and if the situation merits the change, e.g you're at work or some situation that's not exactly casual. I know quite a few ENFPs and I've seen them span several moods in the space of an hour, and yeah it's frustrating because there's no consistency. So what do you mean when you say you're always changing your social role? If the ENFJs you're interacting are all baffled by your behavior I'd first of all wonder why at least two (?) or more people all had the same reaction to me. They may view you as being inconsistent in how you present yourself and are probably trying to figure out how to interact with you. Based on what you said, it seems like you change just to keep them guessing, which sounds like a childish game. I'd begin to think you're changing as a smokescreen or something which wouldn't exactly lead to a congenial relationship, but that may not be what you're aiming for.

Likely she doesn't even notice when she changes roles, it doesn't cross her mind at all, she just does what comes to mind. It probably doesn't cross her mind that she should even be trying to conform to some specific set of allowed behaviours. People will learn how she is by interacting with her, not by how well she fills some role which isn't really her.

 

[Von Mittendorf]

Fe can be a great boon. It can rally people, unite them to a cause, get people excited about an idea. But it is the Jedi Mind Trick function. And if you're not the sort of person who gets swept away by Fe (to continue on the Star Wars metaphor, one of those "strong minds" like Jabba the Hutt) you will see it as deceptive, condescending, manipulative, etc. I had an ENFJ roommate and friend (still a close friend) who completely lost his shit Fe-wise when I moved out. He would bitch at me, my friends, my girlfriend that I was being a bad friend because now that I didn't live in the same apartment as him, we spent less time together. He would howl about how now that I'd "left him" he had no one to talk to, that he couldn't handle being alone all the time, that, essentially, I was directly responsible for his "declining mental state."

That categorizing aspect of Fe can lead to some serious problems, as everyone's mentioned, but it isn't necessarily always a bad thing. This same dude is a pretty big reason I ever ever got into trying to write for real, roping me into writing screenplays for his film projects and setting the trajectory I followed to comic books, my current career path. I would not be the man, or the writer I am today (or ever will be) if it wasn't for him and his crazy Fe.

It can be such a pain in the ass sometimes, though.

 

[Kalach]

What I will say about social roles is (and I don't know if this is a particularly Fe thing or not) we all have social roles whether or not you want to step into them is up to you, but can you really be surprised at people for being baffled at you? You're someone's "daughter," "sister," "friend," "employee," "neighbor," "customer," whatever.

There are implicit expectations based role you inhabit at a particular moment or in relation to another person. We know the way a mother "should" act towards her children and we can identify when a mother isn't acting the way she's supposed to.

Hello Si.

I have an INFJ buddy and she likes to talk about the people in her life sometimes, so one day there I was, attempting to give her the benefit of my (*ahem*) profound insight and deep understanding, and I ended up saying, "You're INFJ, you use intuition, everything you see is completely new!"

I was attempting to get at the idea that introverted intuition doesn't have a pre-determined structure for the next thing that happens. Sure, there's a wealth of prior experience that lets you get a head start on understanding, but there's also always the sense of novelty. The next thing you see is allowed to reshape the understanding, rather than always first be fitted into the suitable already-acknowledged category.

So roles get to feeling like straitjackets. As INTJ I'll often find myself saying, "Oh yeah, that's my role? Okay, fine, but what's real?" And "real" is less about what has been in the past, and more about what novel understanding happened just now.

And what's Fe got to do with this? At a guess, Fe's not such a big fan of independence in others. Even though NFJs are using their own Ni, they're still working to manage feeling environments, and someone suddenly changing course and charging off after some novelty makes more work.

It's just a guess. I don't really know.

 

[sculpting]

It's because I grabbed your boob, isn't it?

well, uh, i actually kind liked that...

 

[sculpting]

Fe gets a bad press on this forum. I see all sorts of loaded, negative terms like "sneaky", "manipulative" and "insincere" linked to this important function. You sort of expect that from NT's, but NFPs should know better!


Only when we have true rapport with someone can we begin to really understand and communicate with them. Rapport also allows us to share parts of ourselves with another person and is the basis of empathy and tolerance. In our cynical modern world, the initial attempts of anyone attempting to make contact using Fe are frequently misread as self-serving or manipulative.


Reflect on this: if it weren't for Extraverted Feeling, we wouldn't even have a "society" in the first place (or at least one which most people would want to be a part of)!

Oh, I'm really on my soapbox now!

Maybe it's time for all us underappreciated FJ types of the world to unite and rise up to create a better society. Imagine this: World Conquest not through war or violence, but by enforced politeness, good manners and mutual respect!

Holy shit, you are scaring me!! Have you ever read "the giver"? It is a very scary world much like you describe

Anyways I dont think its the tertiary Fe so much as folks that use it as thier primary function that make me itch. The few INFJs I have come across either choose to be distant or choose to be close. My one INFJ would call me as I transitioned from an ENFP into some sort of INTJ style lecturer and make fun of me which would then make me laugh as well.

Another INFJ kept trying to type my personality one night using the color wheel system thing. At first she said I was blue, then I was green then I was yellow (after a bottle of wine), then later our boss said "no she's red!" It really bugged her that I didnt fit cleanly.

I am all the colors of the rainbow!

I guess when I create rapport I don't have to catagorize the other person so much as open myself to them and let them see inside of me. I forgive them all of the "things" they are supposed to be and accept them for what and who they are. I then let them see my weaknesses. That honesty/openess is where the rapport comes from for me. It works very well with the INTJs, NTPs, and ISTJs that are prolific around me. works poorly with the ESTPs and ESFPs.