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[MBTI General] Idealist relationships are disheartening

Chris_in_Orbit

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I have a friend who I've become pretty close to lately. She tests as an ENFP (but I know for a fact that she is ENFJ.) She's been dating an ESFJ though I don't think his type is too important.

Lately they've been having all sorts of problems... Since I hang out with them alot I, unfortunately, see alot of their ups and downs. I have to say that they were pretty good together at first. Now she is constantly getting frustrated with him for just about everything. She talks to him about all the problems their having, he'll act sorry for a while but really doesn't hear a word of it.

I find it so interesting and sad that she goes through this. She loves him; it seems so pure from her end. Still, I can't help but notice that she is constantly getting her feelings hurt and nothing ever changes. I've seen this with NFs so often I almost think its a fatal flaw that comes with the temperament. Some people will do just about anything for love. Is this common in all NFs? Do you think it extends past significant others to your friends as well? Why the heck do you put yourselves in these situations?
 

Shaula

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Good question.

I have this ENFP friend who believes she can't fall out of love with anyone she's ever loved. She says she'll always have a peice of her heart for them even when they are long gone and have move on (which obviously hurts her emotionally). She dwells on her exs but fortunately after having many bad ones she has learned that it's not practical to stay in abusive relationships. I don't understand why she just can't move on emotionally. It seems unproductive and self-destructive.
 

Alpha Prime

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NF's are known to put up with stuff that isn't worth two shit for them, for way too long.
 

Lady_X

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it's hard for me to let go too. i pretty much want everyone i care about always in my life in some way...even if i almost never see them. i still want to feel close enough that i can call them and catch up sometimes. i just really care about people.

and as far as staying in relationships too long. it comes from seeing hidden potential and understanding how they came to be the way they are and hoping they can live up to their potential...and wearing rose colored shades and being happy all the time, letting go of negative feelings easily, being good enough communicators for the both of you usually...but i find once i no longer love someone, i can let go easy...and if i've been hurt it's really easy...and i can be somewhat uncharacteristically cold about it.
 

MoneyJungle

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I do this in pretty much every relationship. I commit too early and feel an obligation to make things work in spite of any circumstances that are difficult. I take the blame for everything that is wrong in a relationship.

In regard to constantly hurt feelings, my feelings are constantly hurt on trips to the grocery store and walks in the park. I assume it is part of the territory in life and love and put up with too much heartbreak, as it is still better than the regret and failure of a broken romance (until its actually over for a while and I wonder what the Hell I was doing in hindsight).

Why do I put myself in these situations? I see sad, lonely and broken people and want to bring happiness into their lives, thus making me feel good about myself. :doh:


it's hard for me to let go too. i pretty much want everyone i care about always in my life in some way...even if i almost never see them. i still want to feel close enough that i can call them and catch up sometimes. i just really care about people.

I am the same way. Unresolved ugliness is something I will just dwell on.
 

Tiltyred

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It feels like betrayal to "move on." I don't want to move on. I want eternal.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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Good question.

I have this ENFP friend who believes she can't fall out of love with anyone she's ever loved. She says she'll always have a peice of her heart for them even when they are long gone and have move on (which obviously hurts her emotionally). She dwells on her exs but fortunately after having many bad ones she has learned that it's not practical to stay in abusive relationships. I don't understand why she just can't move on emotionally. It seems unproductive and self-destructive.
I think you share my confusion when they stuff like that. "I'll always have a piece of my heart for them." That seems like a negative slope towards depression. Lets just hope your friend doesn't date so many people that she doesn't have anything left to give Shaula.

NF's are known to put up with stuff that isn't worth two shit for them, for way too long.
So it really does come down to temperament. I suspected it was all F's but SFs don't seem nearly as romantic.

it's hard for me to let go too. i pretty much want everyone i care about always in my life in some way...even if i almost never see them. i still want to feel close enough that i can call them and catch up sometimes. i just really care about people.

and as far as staying in relationships too long. it comes from seeing hidden potential and understanding how they came to be the way they are and hoping they can live up to their potential...and wearing rose colored shades and being happy all the time, letting go of negative feelings easily, being good enough communicators for the both of you usually...but i find once i no longer love someone, i can let go easy...and if i've been hurt it's really easy...and i can be somewhat uncharacteristically cold about it.
You sound just like my friend. Its like she can love so much more intensely than most people but ends up getting hurt much more easily and much more deeply. I've seen that strange coldness as well. I don't like it when I see it.

I do this in pretty much every relationship. I commit too early and feel an obligation to make things work in spite of any circumstances that are difficult. I take the blame for everything that is wrong in a relationship.

In regard to constantly hurt feelings, my feelings are constantly hurt on trips to the grocery store and walks in the park. I assume it is part of the territory in life and love and put up with too much heartbreak, as it is still better than the regret and failure of a broken romance (until its actually over for a while and I wonder what the Hell I was doing in hindsight).

Why do I put myself in these situations? I see sad, lonely and broken people and want to bring happiness into their lives, thus making me feel good about myself. :doh:




I am the same way. Unresolved ugliness is something I will just dwell on.
I don't understand why you do that! A relationship isn't about always taking the blame. The only way that works is if both people in the relationship have that mindset (and I'm pretty sure that rarely happens.) Its like you're setting yourself up to get drained and shriveled up.

It feels like betrayal to "move on." I don't want to move on. I want eternal.
Thats a little selfish.
 

Lady_X

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You sound just like my friend. Its like she can love so much more intensely than most people but ends up getting hurt much more easily and much more deeply. I've seen that strange coldness as well. I don't like it when I see it.

yep...it feels that way, although of course i have no idea and that coldness is only after someone has shown you they don't deserve it from you anymore. it comes from being hurt and i guess it's a defense mechanism.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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Why allow a person to get to that point? What does it take for them to get there?
 

Lady_X

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what do you mean why allow them?

i'm not going to get into actual personal experiences but basically anything that shows you they are not the person you thought they were so..you detach effortlessly once you realize the person you loved was an illusion.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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Well, it seems like NFs give chance after chance until they just can't take it anymore...and then the coldness. If someone was showing you again and again that they aren't worth your time, why keep giving them chances until you have to be an ice queen?

Also, the whole not being who you thought they were thing... Couldn't that be your fault for idealizing them instead of seeing them for who they are?
 

Lady_X

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it would depend on the situation it could go either way yeah.

you could either be blind to their faults in the beginning or they could be deceiving you.

and blame...doesn't really matter much to me...but yeah...could be the nf's fault for being too idealistic, too accepting and forgiving or it could be the other persons for changing or hiding who they really were...either way the person you loved is an illusion so detachment is easy
 

Kalach

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Here's my limb, here's me going out on it:

in a backwards and odd kind of way, people often care a lot about themselves when they care too much for others.

Caring about something produces feeling, good and bad, for the carer, yes? So what's driving the carer, really? The decisions they make are based on their response to another person's needs. Their response, yeah?

So, ultimately, whatever altruistic curtain is clouding your insight, if you can't let go, it's because you can't let go.


ENFJs are the particularly well-know public demons on this point. I made this decision in OUR best interests, and we will be together forever!!1

ENFPs, it looks like, have a similar thing. Overbearing smothering, but happily without the overbearing decision-making.


Phew! You know what, all the usual propaganda about NTs not caring enough, finally we can see and explore the other side--NFs caring too much--and know what it means. The selfish side of it, I mean. I mean, NTs don't care enough so they're selfish; NFs care too much so they're selfish too.

Bring it.
 

kyuuei

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Good question.

I have this ENFP friend who believes she can't fall out of love with anyone she's ever loved. She says she'll always have a peice of her heart for them even when they are long gone and have move on (which obviously hurts her emotionally). She dwells on her exs but fortunately after having many bad ones she has learned that it's not practical to stay in abusive relationships. I don't understand why she just can't move on emotionally. It seems unproductive and self-destructive.

=( I have noticed this trend before.. I think it's possible to realize that you change, and you're never entirely the same, after a serious relationship with someone.. which is where the whole "I gave them a piece of my heart" entails.

What bugs me is when it's taken beyond this. I know friends who just seem to linger on the past, even if the past was terrible.. as if they NEED something to cling onto.

I can say that, while there is a guy I may never get over entirely.. every relationship I've fallen out of, I never looked back aside the one. And that one is for entirely good reasons, nothing abusive or terrible about it.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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it would depend on the situation it could go either way yeah.

you could either be blind to their faults in the beginning or they could be deceiving you.

and blame...doesn't really matter much to me...but yeah...could be the nf's fault for being too idealistic, too accepting and forgiving or it could be the other persons for changing or hiding who they really were...either way the person you loved is an illusion so detachment is easy
Guess a person could be hiding who they really are but being "too" anything is probably a fault. A good balance is what a well-rounded individual is all about.

Here's my limb, here's me going out on it:

in a backwards and odd kind of way, people often care a lot about themselves when they care too much for others.

Caring about something produces feeling, good and bad, for the carer, yes? So what's driving the carer, really? The decisions they make are based on their response to another person's needs. Their response, yeah?

So, ultimately, whatever altruistic curtain is clouding your insight, if you can't let go, it's because you can't let go.


ENFJs are the particularly well-know public demons on this point. I made this decision in OUR best interests, and we will be together forever!!1

ENFPs, it looks like, have a similar thing. Overbearing smothering, but happily without the overbearing decision-making.


Phew! You know what, all the usual propaganda about NTs not caring enough, finally we can see and explore the other side--NFs caring too much--and know what it means. The selfish side of it, I mean. I mean, NTs don't care enough so they're selfish; NFs care too much so they're selfish too.

Bring it.
I like how you think, and I have thought about this also. For one thing, I don't believe in altruism. Not because I'm a pessimist, but the whole idea of doing something completly selfless smells like BS to me. From what you say, NT and NF would be a good pair, moving each other towards a middle ground of caring just enough.
 

A Schnitzel

WTF is this dude saying?
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Some guys actually listen.

It sounds like it's just a bad combo or the guy's an ass or both. I don't really know.
 

Lady_X

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hey...what's this obsession with blame? i don't know i just don't care...there's compatible and non compatible...i don't think anyone is doing anything "wrong" by being who they are....not to say that striving for growth and balance isn't important but there's no "better" way to approach the relationship...it's not a competition.

i happen to like that i see the good in people and feel i'd be a lot less happy if all i saw were everyone's faults.
 

Tiltyred

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I think we just value relationship above all else. It's important not to trash something if there is any possibility of it being redeemable, because maintaining relationships is important in and of itself, an idea that overrides the particular relationship we happen to be in at the moment.
 

Kalach

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I like how you think, and I have thought about this also. For one thing, I don't believe in altruism. Not because I'm a pessimist, but the whole idea of doing something completly selfless smells like BS to me. From what you say, NT and NF would be a good pair, moving each other towards a middle ground of caring just enough.

That's the theory, but I'm pretty sure there's another part of it too, namely people moving themselves to a suitable balance. Is there any type that doesn't have both thinking and feeling in the top four functions?

If the deal with relationships is each partner is forever dragging the other partner back from their dominant+auxiliary ledge, that seems kinda... confining, at least.


I also think--for the particular problem that originated this thread--J's together have a hard time communicating naturally, especially if their directive functions can't say things the other type can understand. Or if their directive function is pushing for something the other person's directive function doesn't accept. Si informed Fe and Ni informed Fe... you gotta hope there's grounds for understanding.


And altruism? That's another thread, but I really don't want to rule out the possibility that it can be real. Sure, people are involved in their own decision-making--because if they weren't, they'd make no decisions at all--but, at the risk of being selfish, I believe there can be good decisions about good action.
 
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